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    Could Somebody Please Tell Me The Difference Between Zionism and Routine, Garden Variety Racism?

    BENEATH THE SPIN • ERIC L. WATTREE

    Could Somebody Please Tell Me The Difference Between Zionism and Routine, Garden Variety Racism?
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    I'm about to do something that I generally make it a point to avoid - discuss the collective nature of White folks. The reason I make it a point to avoid this subject is because I don't want to add to the disinformation disseminated by many Black racists (oh yes, racists come in Black too) that there is something more intrinsically evil in White people than there is in any other racial group.

    The fact is, just as intellect is distributed equally across our species, so is malevolence. We all have a tendency to be self-serving and corrupt given half a chance. The only difference between White people and any other group is that they have the power, thus opportunity, to reflect that side of their nature - and to anyone who wants to challenge my assertion in that regard, I invite you to witness the Black-on-Black mayhem that's currently taking place on the continent of Africa. Or take the police out of the Black communities of America and see the level of enlightenment that prevails - it would be the survival of the fittest within a week.
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    So it seems that the common trait shared by all those who tend to be inhumane and corrupt is neither race, creed, nor color. What they all have in common is power, opportunity, and greed. And let there be no doubt about it, that's the source of all of the turmoil in the Middle-East - the power, opportunity, and greed of Israel, and the American military/industrial complex. But whenever anyone seeks to examine this issue they're immediately met with hysterical charges of being either unpatriotic, anti-Semitic, or both. So while everyone is aware of the problem, we tend to turn a blind eye to it.
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    Zionism is nothing but a Betty Crocker-approved euphemism for bigotry, but if you speak to a Zionist he'll tell you, "That's not true. Jews simply want, and deserve, a Jewish homeland." But isn't that EXACTLY what Hitler said? - "I'm not a bad guy; I simply want an Aryan homeland."  It's the exact same thing, and based on the exact same pretext. No one group of people DESERVE any part of this Earth - which "God" set aside for ALL human beings in general - for themselves, and anyone who says differently, and is willing to kill for it, is a murderous warmonger, and full of crap.  If Jews wanted to return to Israel, or Palestine, they should have simply started immigrating to the region and tried to PEACEFULLY blend in with the indigenous people, not take over. If they had done that, and the indigenous people had been respected and given an incentive to accept them, we wouldn't have much of the hatred that we have in the region today - and before it even gets started, I'm not going to even entertain the argument that I have to buy into allowing Israel to commit murder to prove I don't hate Jews.  This is not about Jews; it's about Zionism, and all Jews are not Zionists..

    This is an issue that needs desperately to be addressed, because due to our failure to do so, American troops are dying, the United States treasury is being looted, and the entire world is being placed at risk. So enough with all of the name-calling and accusations. Israel's behavior needs to be scrutinized just like any other country in the world, because ironically, they're doing the EXACT same thing to the Palestinians that Hitler did to them. They've turned Palestine into a concentration camp, and whenever they feel the whim, they drop their ovens from the sky.
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    Pure, objective, and unadulterated truth is not nearly as complicated or elusive as we try to make it seem in this country. But since truth doesn’t lend itself to being Black, White, Jew, or Gentile, when the truth comes up less than a perfect fit to our carefully constructed comfort zones, we tend to, distort, convolute, and try to beat it into submission for a more comfortable fit. In the process, however, we do ourselves a gross injustice, because no matter how you distort it, truth will always prevail in the end. That is the source of most of our problems in this world. We all seek to distort the truth in a way that is most palatable to our special interest - and this problem is magnified by the fact that our writers, political pundits, and politicians have a natural tendency to seek applause and self-interest over truth. So if we’re indeed dependent on the truth to set us free, let us not doom ourselves to a death, carnage, and intellectual bondage by living a lie.
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    And the truth is, our poor and middle-class young people are being wooed by slick government commercials to become cannon fodder in a war for profit. But young people, take it from an old Marine, it’s all a lie. They're only showing you the benefits and upside of military life - with you standing proud and strong in your spotless uniform at home, with all the girls looking at you with admiring eyes. They’re not showing you the real picture - of you lying in 120 degree heat in agony thousands of miles from home, bleeding to death from the stub that use to be your leg, or looking at your foot in a bloody boot twenty-five yards away from where the rest of you lie dying. They’re being criminally remiss in not showing you that side of military life. Why do you think the children of the rich rarely come back in coffins?
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    Now, don't get the impression that I’m a pacifist, or hate the military, however - I’m not. There IS a time when war is justified, but this ain’t it. You know it’s time to go to war when you’re prepared to see your own love ones become it’s first casualty, but it's abundantly clear that no one in our government has reached that point as yet. If they had, they'd be encouraging their kids to enlist.
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    Where is Liz Cheney, or the Bush girls? They can drive a truck. But no, not on your life - they're idea of patriotism is cheering on the dying "little people" from the lobby of exclusive tennis clubs. So be all you can be, but don’t be a fool. You won’t be fighting for your country; you’ll be fighting for Exxon and Halliburton's collusion with Israel to rob the people of the Middle East and gouge the American taxpayer.
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    The truth is, the dispute over Israel is nothing less than "The Manifest Destiny" being reenacted. When the Europeans came to America and began to strip the indigenous people of their land, they justified their unholy atrocities by declaring that it was God’s will that they settle and bring his word to this "uncivilized land"– it was their manifest destiny. So in true civilized, Christian fashion, they began to spread the Holy word of God through the hot muzzle of a Gatlin gun. It was a brutally unconscionable and gruesome event, but what could these good Christians do? After all, it was God’s will that they slaughter those "Godless savages." That is the exact same scenario that is currently taking place in the Middle East today. It began with the "creation" of the state of Israel in 1948, and the campaign continues as I speak - but this time, it’s called Zionism.
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    In 1882, while Jews were being massacred throughout Russia, Leo Pinsker, the founder of the Zionist movement, published a small booklet entitled "Auto-Emancipation". It pointed out that Jews would never find equality in Russia, so it was necessary for world Jewry to establish their own homeland. At first he didn’t care where it was located - in fact, the area encompassing Zaire, Africa was even considered. But later, Pinsker recognized that in order to get Jews to immigrate in numbers large enough to establish a homeland, he needed a location that would inspire the Jewish soul, and no location in the world would suit that purpose like Palestine, the land of Zion - "the land that God had promised the Jews." The fact that there were indigenous people already living in Palestine never even crossed his mind. In addition, the fact that Netanyahu is STILL taking land and encouraging even more Jews to immigrate to this very limited geographical area makes his agenda clear.
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    The ultimate goal is to expand into Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran Saudi Arabia and Egypt - countries as far away as Turkey, Yemen and Oman aren't even safe. Israeli hardliners like Netanyahu envision the United States of Israel, and with the help of neocons, oil companies and war profiteers in America, that means endless war, and the death of hundreds of thousands - maybe even millions - of poor and middle class children yet unborn, because they're not going to send their kids. At this very moment the GOP led congress is making absolutely sure that that those kids are going to be in such dire economic straits that their only way of even getting an education is to survive the military. The reason that we can't see that agenda in this country is because the american people think in news cycles, while the war profiteers think in terms of decades. When I was waiting to be discharged from the Marine Corps during the Vietnam era, they had me stationed in Twenty-Nine Palms, California helping to train marines in desert warfare. The war profiteers NEED war to sustain their businesses.  That's why Netanyahu and the GOP are working hand-in-hand. That's also why we need a thorough congressional investigation into the GOP 47 treason letter. They're conspiring to needlessly kill our children to promote injustice and greed.

    Zionism 


    The American Heritage Dictionary defines Zionism as follows: "Zionism: An organized movement of world Jewry that arose in Europe in the late 19th century with the aim of reconstituting a Jewish state in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the development and support of the state of Israel."
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    Thus, Zionism, by definition and design, is a doctrine dedicated to the taking of Palestine - and on May 14, 1948, European Jews did just that. Between 1944 and 1948, due to their experience with the Nazi’s, Eastern European Jews wanted to get off the European continent by any means necessary, so various Zionist organizations created the Bariha (escape) Organization that helped close to 200,000 Jews to leave Europe and settle in Palestine. Prior to that time, in July of 1922, the League of Nations (the progenitor of the United Nations) gave Great Britain a mandate to protect the people of Palestine, but on November 29, 1947 when the U. N. General Assembly passed a resolution to partition off Palestine between the Arabs and Jews, Great Britain announced that it was terminating its mandate. The end of the British mandate was to go into effect on May 15, 1948, but on May 14, 1948 the Zionists declared the creation of Israel, a Jewish state.
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    But in order for the new State of Israel to have any legitimacy it had to be recognized by the United States. The U.S. State Department was less than enthusiastic about creating a Jewish state in Palestine, but shortly after President Truman took office, European Zionist, Chaim Weizmann, convinced the president that it was only just that the survivors of the holocaust would be given their own homeland. Truman agreed, and recognized the State of Israel on May 14, 1948, and all hell’s been breaking loose every since.
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    The Israeli-American alliance was a match made in Hell from the very outset - they didn’t even trust each other. One of the largest units in the CIA is dedicated to the prevention of Israeli spying on the United States, and one of the biggest spy scandals in U.S. history involved an Israeli spy name Jonathan Pollard, an American of Jewish descent, born in Galveston, Texas. But in spite of that, Israel receives more U.S. foreign aid than any other country in the world, and we’ve made them one of the most formidable military forces in the world. The reason for that? - oil.
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    Israel stands as an extension of the United States in the Middle East, within easy striking distance of Middle Eastern oil fields. So what we have in the Middle East is an unholy quid pro quo -The United States will help the Israelis steal Arab land, and the Israelis will help the United States steal the oil beneath the land.
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    So the Israeli claim that their slaughter of the Arab people is simply an attempt to defend themselves is nothing but a farce. Granted, when someone invades your home you do have a right to retaliate against them, but Europeans have about as much right to call Israel their home as I’d have of tearing off a part of China simply because I converted to Buddhism.
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    Far be it from me, however, to say who’s a Jew and who’s not, but I think we can all agree that European Jews are not the same Jews that were spoken of in the Bible. But, of course, you’re not suppose to even whisper such sentiments here in America. To say that European Jews don’t belong in Israel, or to speak out on any atrocity that the State of Israel might commit, is considered anti-Semitic in this country. But even that’s a farce. There’s a big difference between being anti-Semitic and anti- Zionist. To be anti-Semitic is to be against a people, while being anti-Zionist is to be against a philosophy. After all, all Jews are not Zionist. But there’s another issue here as well. How can you be anti-Semitic towards Europeans? They aren’t even Semites.
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    The situation above describes exactly why we were in Iraq and are in Afghanistan today. Thus, all of the killing in the Middle East is about European hubris, injustice, and greed. The entire justification for Europeans being in the Middle East at all, is based on a lie - and that includes Europeans by way of America.
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    How can you go into your neighbor’s home and kill his family, then call him the aggressor? And now they’re trying to undermine nuclear arms negotiations as a prelude invading Iran! It’s all about racism and greed. Think about it-- as bad as the Germans and Russians treated the Jews over the years, you’d think the Jews would have been given part of one of those countries. If they’d done that, European Jews wouldn’t have even had to leave home. But White folks don’t play that - no matter how much they hate each other.
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    As I pointed out in my last article, you can't just TAKE land from someone else and then tell them that God wants you to have it. That pretext is not only blatantly ridiculous on its face, but insulting. So everybody knows what the facts are, and everyone knows how unjust it was, but no one wants to say it out loud because we've been indulging in a conspiracy of silence.  But we've got to address this issue, even though, at this point, we can't turn back the clock and get a do-over.  What's done is done. That was the mistake of another generation, and at this point there are two generations of Israelis who were born in Israel and have every right to call it home. But it's past time to start having an honest discussion on this issue and thinking about ways to compensate the Arabs for the hit that they took. That would undoubtedly go a long way toward healing longstanding wounds - and we should start by using that $3.15 billion a year we give Israel for their killing machines and use that money to make a better life for ALL Palestinians. 

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    Yes, for once we should do something decent, and compensate the Palestinian people for the injustice we perpetrated against them, because continuing to buy Israel extermination machines is only making the situation worse. And another thing, trying to ignore injustice only allows it to fester and foster deep-seated hatred. We're seeing that scenario playing out right here in the United Stats among our own people.
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    Eric L. Wattree
    wattree.blogspot.com
    [email protected]
    Citizens Against Reckless Middle-Class Abuse (CARMA)
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    Religious bigotry: It's not that I hate everyone who doesn't look, think, and act like me - it's just that God does.

    Comments

    I certainly can't argue with your words.  To me this is especially true:

     If Jews wanted to return to Israel, or Palestine, they should have simply started immigrating to the region and tried to PEACEFULLY blend in with the indigenous people, not take over. If they had done that, and the indigenous people had been respected and given an incentive to accept them, we wouldn't have much of the hatred that we have in the region today - and before it even gets started, I'm not going to even entertain the argument that I have to buy into allowing Israel to commit murder to prove I don't hate Jews.  This is not about Jews; it's about Zionism, and all Jews are not Zionists..

    I don't know what the answer is, but it doesn't look like one is anywhere on the horizon.

     


    The Yadzi's have spent over 2,000 years peacefully blending in to the Middle East. As have the Chaldean Christians and Kurds. It hasn't worked to save their homes or lives or daughters from Arab fanatics. Only armed force has saved some of them. link1, link 2.

    The current list of fanatical Muslim terror groups is so long I will not bother to list them all here, but they have been beheading, executing, raping, terrorizing and murdering their way across the Middle East both before, and particularly after GW Bush and the United States invaded Iraq and lit the fuse on the powder keg that is the Middle East.

    Hamas, which killed it's way to power in the Gaza Strip in 2007, and which kills it's way to stay in power in Gaza, and for which Wattree is so fond of posting propaganda pictures of dead kids, uses foreign money not to help kids, but to dig terror tunnels to kill Israeli's and make rockets to shoot at Israel.

    This is how the justice system in Gaza works:

    The leader of Hamas, who resides in  a 5 star hotel in Qatar and has a private jet, has a job only as long as Jihad against Israel can keep going. You might say he is in the business of assuring people like Wattree keep seeing pictures of dead kids in Gaza. So Hamas uses schools to store and fire rockets and dig terror tunnels, and the violence and the retaliation by Israel pay dividends to Hamas. Bloody pictures are part of the propaganda. Hamas could frankly care less.

    See "Hamas gets rich while Gazans starve".

    Hamas leader Khaled Maschal in his Emirate based private jet.

    Zionism appears more than ever as a necessary political reality to allow the Jews and Arab citizens (1.6 million non-Jewish Arab citizens) of Israel to have security in a region overflowing with terrorists, extremism and violence.

     


    The entire region has become a cesspool of both Zionist and Arab fanaticism. That's why the world needs to step in - and the photos are not propaganda; they're truth.  


    Doesn't Israel actually dole out the funds to Gaza? It may be that because they are penned in and rely on Israel for access to the outside world, a black market economy is a predictable result. James Zogby has a post that notes the life experiences of the Arab Israelis. It is not a pleasant history.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-zogby/the-palestinian-arab-citizens-...


    If Jews wanted to return to Israel, or Palestine, they should have simply started immigrating to the region and tried to PEACEFULLY blend in with the indigenous people, not take over. If they had done that, and the indigenous people had been respected and given an incentive to accept them, we wouldn't have much of the hatred that we have in the region today

    Yeah, Jews tried that in Palestine. Unfortunately, the indigenous people did not accept them. They also tried it in Spain, but the indigenous people did not accept them. They tried it in England, but the indigenous people did not accept them. They tried it in Russia, but the indigenous people did not accept them. They tried it in Germany, but the indigenous people did not accept them. You like to pepper your articles with ugly photos? Here are some more for you.

     

    Yeah, indigenous people sure do love peaceful Jewish immigrants. Too bad the Jews who managed to survive the Holocaust were so bigoted and racist in seeking a homeland of their own where their neighbors couldn't repress them, enslave them, expel them, convert them, experiment on them, or gas them.

    Look, if you want to talk about Palestinian suffering, please do. I hate the occupation, and I hate the Israeli government for doing it. But spare me your self-righteous, historically-ignorant moralization about zionism and racism. It makes me sick.


    Michael,

    What do these pictures have to do with what's currently going on in Palestine?  They're irrelevant. All they show is why it would have been more appropriate to partition off Germany than Palestine. So instead of making your case you're defeating it. The Palestinians didn't commit any of the above atrocities. They were in Palestine minding their own business. Those were Germans who committed those atrocities, so why do the Palestinians have to pay the price, because they're easier to take land from?
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    You can't just TAKE land from someone else and then tell them that God wants you to have it. That pretext is not only blatantly ridiculous on its face, but insulting. So everybody knows what the facts are, and everyone knows how unjust it was, but no one wants to say it out loud because we've been indulging in a conspiracy of silence.  But we've got to address this issue, even though, at this point, we can't turn back the clock and get a do-over.  What's done is done. That was the mistake of another generation, and at this point there are two generations of Israelis who were born in Israel and have every right to call it home. But it's past time to start having an honest discussion on this issue and thinking about ways to compensate the Arabs for the hit that they took. That would undoubtedly go a long way toward healing longstanding wounds. Trying to ignore injustice only allows it to fester and foster deep-seated hatred. We're seeing that scenario playing out right here in the United States among our own people.
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    The Jerusalem Post quoted former Israeli Defense Force Commander-in-Chief Gabi Ashkenazi as saying,  U.S. taxpayers have contributed more to the Israeli defense budget than Israeli taxpayers in the past three years (http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Ashkenazi-Preserving-US-ties-a-securi...).  That fact is in dispute, but what's not in dispute is the United States is spending $3.15 billion per year from 2013-2018 - even as Netanyahu comes over here, thumbs his nose in our president's face, and conspires to undermine our nation's interest. Thus, instead of spending that money on military arms and foreign aid to Israel, we should start spending the money on helping to make a better life for the Arabs in the surrounding area in compensation for the injustice they've endured as a result of our atrocious foreign policy.  And we should also start holding Israel's feet to the fire regarding their behavior in the region. Perhaps then it wouldn't be so easy for radical militants to recruit American and Jew-hating terrorists. In short, we need to use that money and SAVE lives, instead of enriching war profiteers, and providing Israel with ever more weapons of mass destruction.
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    The issues in the region could have been resolved long ago, but there are hard-liners, like Netanyahu, in Israel who don't want them resolved, because they want to use "security" as a pretext to continue their land-grab. But they, and we, are engaged in a global game of Israeli roulette, because everybody in the region hates the Israelis so intensely that they're prepared to die to strike a blow against Israel - and regardless to what we do, we're not going to be able to keep the nuclear genie in the bottle indefinitely.  Pakistan is already a nuclear power, so if Islamic extremists ever gain control of Pakistan, Israel is toast, because many of the people in the region feel so frustrated,  put upon, and filled with hatred toward Israel, they don't care whether they die or not. Martyrdom is a very significant part of their culture, so they'll consider it an honorable event to go out in a blaze of glory - and lets call a hat a hat, they feel that way with very good cause. Injustice will do that to you.
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    So the entire world needs to come together and FORCE Israel to get its act together and start acting like a good neighbor and a responsible member of the world community, instead of running around trying to sabotage peace agreements, because this is not just about Israel.  People like Netanyahu - with the help of other fanatics, on both sides, and the mindless greed of the war profiteers - are placing the entire world - your family, and my family - in jeopardy, and personally, I don't appreciate it. 
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    This is a very serious matter that simply MUST be addressed, but every time anyone is the least bit critical of Israel, no matter what kind of atrocity it commits, we have to listen to yet another rendition of "Every Time A Jew's Been Yelled At Since Genesis." That's not the Palestinians' fault. And everybody's got a story to tell - and just as horrifying - it's just that the Jewish story was caught on camera and has been told more often, because it's used as a political tool. The Japanese had not one, but two atomic bombs dropped on them, and you speak of 6 million Jews being killed, during WWII 10 million Russians and 11 million Chinese were also killed, and during the 18th and 19th Century as many as 100 million native Americans were slaughtered? And then, of course, there was slavery, and Jim Crow after that. So while the Jews have a compelling story, it's far from unique.  But even so, I don't mind commiserating with you - until you try to use it to justify killing others.


    Michael is right about one thing; Jews couldn't just "live in peace with other peoples" as Wattree suggests, because the gentiles wouldn't let them. That's why Zionism was cooked up. That doesn't mean we have to endorse Zionism, let alone endorse Israeli policies, but let's not pretend that the "Jewish question" could have been solved by assimilation.


    What do these pictures have to do with what's currently going on in Palestine?

    Wattree, you're the one jumping back and forth between history and the present. If you focused on that's currently going on in Palestine, I think we would be in agreement.

    What you fail to understand, what I and others have been trying to communicate to you in this thread and others, is how and why Israel was created. You cite stuff that happened, but you obviously don't get it. I'm going to try to put this in terms you can relate to. Try to imagine if the President of the United States tried to murder every black person in America to preserve the country for white people. Imagine that he actually succeeded in destroying half the black population in the country--millions of innocent men, women, children, gassed to death and burned. Whole cities are decimated, families wiped out. After the genocide, many survivors understandably want to get the fuck out, get to a place where white racists can't kill or persecute them anymore.

    Now this hunger for security, it does not give the survivors carte blanche to go wherever they want or do whatever they want. They are still accountable in their new homeland. But imagine some pompous white guy many years later says, Oh pooh-pooh, everyone suffers. You African-Americans just created a new homeland because you're racist.

    Would you not also be outraged?


    Michael,
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    You haven't answered the most important question. What does all of that have to do with the Palestinians, and how does what took place in Germany justify taking THEIR land?


    As I wrote to you in a previous thread, "Israel's creation was certainly a disaster for the Palestinians. Many lost their ancestral lands and continue to suffer under Israeli occupation today."

    They did not nothing to deserve to it. They just happened to live in the place where Jewish refugees fled after the Holocaust. Anyone who fails to acknowledge the Palestinians' unjust suffering is blind or ignorant.

    And yet, anyone who fails to understand why Jewish immigrants went to Palestine in the first place and why they are so fearful for their safety is also blind or ignorant.

    So, you can take the easy superficial route and chalk it all up to racism/colonialism. Or if you're pro-Israel, you can take the opposite easy superficial route and and chalk it all up to anti-semitism. But only by making a mental effort to acknowledge the ethical contradictions and appreciate the fierce justifiable passions driving each side can you understand why the conflict is so intractable.

     


    Wattree, every time we build a freeway or a bridge or a stadium we take someone's land. Political & military settlements of civil wars are typically messy - look at the Greek-Turkish conflicts and population exchanges after WWI, and Pakistani-Bangladesh/Indian separation after WWII. Of course Americans stole Texas from its Mexican hosts with the aid of the US government, but this isn't that unusual in history.

    The United Nations in 1947 resolved a Civil War, not just a sop to Jewish victims (of course this was partly of British making, but go stand in line behind Iraq, India, Burma Rhodesia and other lands with similar complaints). With that background, the 1947 partition plan wasn't all "taking THEIR land" - Jews were given primarily the Negev desert (60%) as part of their 56% to set up a state (with a slight Jewish majority), while the Arabs were given 42% with a 99% majority Arab population. Unlike the Bantu divisions in more recent agreements, the sections were much larger and it was the Jews/Israel that was non-contiguous.

    While Jews certainly didn't buy all the land they were given, they had been rather clever over the previous 60 years to buy fairly continuous pieces that did largely assist the partition to their favor. (have a look at maps here.). In any case, life typically sucks, and while it did for the Arabs here as well, they didn't "own" their land under the Ottomans, and they did get concessions and instead didn't play with the stacked deck against them, and the armed Arab resistance/ invasion to the UN plan didn't work in their favor either. It would have behooved them to take their losses early rather than keep playing. Not fair, agreed, but welcome to life.


    The justification for taking 55 percent of the land was that Jews, in Palestine and elsewhere, would continue to be persecuted and maybe massacred if they didn't get a state, while Palestinians wouldn't have suffered much actual harm from losing control of part of the country.

     Keep in mind that this is an argument for the partition plan, not for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948. There is a big difference between the two.


    Sure, but when they were ripping up the Ottoman Empire and dealing with the Turkish-Greek situation after WWI, they also had the choice of finding much larger swaths of more Turkish land to call an Israeli homeland - somewhere in  Antalya or on the Black Sea? or maybe give them an island that's more defensible. And yes, the 55% or 10 point margin assures that that majority is going to push hard to increase its margin for survival's sake. Surprise surprise. Nothing new under the sun - life is ruled by bookies' stakes.


    "Every Time A Jew's Been Yelled At Since Genesis." That's not the Palestinians' fault. And everybody's got a story to tell - and just as horrifying - it's just that the Jewish story was caught on camera and has been told more often, because it's used as a political tool. The Japanese had not one, but two atomic bombs dropped on them, and you speak of 6 million Jews being killed, during WWII 10 million Russians and 11 million Chinese were also killed, and during the 18th and 19th Century as many as 100 million native Americans were slaughtered? And then, of course, there was slavery, and Jim Crow after that.

    So much bullshit here it needs be addressed. First, this isn't "being yelled at" - it's being slaughtered en masse, having medical experiments done on you, wiping your whole people out. What a shitty way to trivialize a monumentally horrific episode of human atrocity beyond comparison.  Should I be an asshole and talk about "Every Time a Black's Been Yelled At..." as a way of trivializing slavery?

    The Jewish story is more horrifying simply because it's more horrifying. While earlier pogroms were horrific enough, World War II's was just beyond belief - like having Genghis Khan's sweeping of Asia focused on your own small population instead.

    Re: Russians, they got into World War 2 by splitting Poland in two with Hitler - after killing 20-30 million of their own during Stalin's rampage - extending the bloodthirsty imperialism of the Russian Tsars that extended across Central Asia to Kamchatka and Vladivostok over the course of centuries. In case you didn't Wiki it yet, the Jews didn't cause 1/10000th of that damage. BTW - the Russians not having grown any humanity made sure most of the Poles in the Warsaw uprising got slaughtered before entering the city, waiting 40 days East of Eden & halting all flights before finally resuming their advance. Motherfuckers.

    The Japanese?  they got nuked because they tried to take over East Asia down to Indonesia, slaughtering millions in the process. Like I should give a fuck that mass murderers get 1/100th of their carnage karma back? Sorry, no can do. Chinese? more the victims of the Japanese, even though 1 million died when their asshole General decided to break a major dam and flood away the people downstream. Later became the national hero of Taiwan. The Jews never acted that stupid and self-defeating either. BTW, the Chinese then threw their lot in with a Communist who killed 50 million of his own people during 2 waves, the "Great Leap Forward" and the "Cultural Revolution", including the brainfart of having everyone make pig iron in their backyard. Jews again much more practical technologically.

    100 million Native Americans weren't slaughtered - 90% were wiped out by plague - kinda like when half of Europe was killed off by the Great Plague, among other historical calamities such as the Spanish Flu after WWI that killed 50-100 million people, or 3-5% of the world's population. Not quite the explorers' "fault", and unrelated to the Jews' predicament.  Jim Crow of course is trivial in comparison, including in comparison with slavery. Bad, but a whole different league.

    So yeah, the Jewish predicament is unique, and there's nothing wrong with them looking out for themselves, as the rest of the world has been pretty persistent and successful in hounding and decimating them over the millenia.


    There's one other thing that I find quite telling, Michael.  Whenever I ask the question. what is the difference between Zionism and Racism, I always get the same responses - some people feign being incensed, I get shock, I get historic regurgitation, and I get outrage; but there's one thing that I never get - a straight answer.


    Evidently you missed the whole point of Michaels response 

    Unless you''re a Holocaust denier ?? 

    There is plenty of historical evidence, if one truly wants to know the Truth;  Zionism is about self preservation.


    I didn't miss a thing, Resistance,

    I'm the fortunate victim of clear thinking. That's what Hitler said about wanting an Aryan Germany. In fact, tell me ANY group of warmongers who DON'T claim it's about survival. There is absolutely NO justification for one group of people to walk into an area and slaughter and take the land of a second group of people based on what SOMEONE ELSE did to them in history.  It's convoluted logic being used as a pretext for selfishness, racism, and greed - period, and anyone who can't see that is deluding themselves.
    .
    And don't even get into that holocaust denier crap with me.. You're dealing in obfuscation in an attempt to re-direct the the discussion. It's the Zionists who are committing atrocities and stealing land, I point it out and says it should stop, and then I'M THE ONE who's the bigot!!!?  Use that tact with somebody else, my man, because it ain't gonna fly here.


    Anyone with knowledge of history knows  where the Land of the Jews has always been and is located.

    Who didn't have knowledge of this fact; accept those taking advantage of Jewish displacement?.

    Anyone familiar with history knew that the Jews would return home to their ancestral lands, just as they had done throughout history. 

    The Palestinians had to have known, any land grab of Jewish lands by the Palestinians would always be temporary.

    Despite your apparent bias and sympathies of those who would keep the Jews displaced or threatened.

    because it ain't gonna fly here.

    The only thing flying around here is what you are slinging, because you want to ignore history.

    The Jews were displaced and they have returned to reclaim, what everyone knows, is theirs, accept for the opportunistic usurpers, who would incite others to aid them, in their quest to deny the rightful owners.   

    Edited to add " is theirs" 


    Sorry, your 1929 Palestine example doesn't hold water.

    "Zionist literature published throughout the world used the imagery of a domed structure on the Temple Mount to symbolize their national aspirations. Zionists had appropriated an Islamic minaret from the Ottoman period on the old city wall as a symbol for their propaganda. A Zionist flag was depicted atop of a building very reminiscent of the Dome of the Rock in one publication, which was later picked up and redistributed by Arab propagandists.[15]"

    That's not "blending in" - that's threatening takeover by accretion (& not just the Dome). In light of what's happened, Palestinians were prescient. And no, they didn't perpetrate the atrocities that the Germans did, so the imagery is crude libel. And the article makes it clear the particular confrontation started with a problem from the British mandate over the region interpreting the rules, not the Palestinians.

    If the Jews had a plan to buy & threaten their way to occupy Berlin and displace the Germans, perhaps the Nazis would have been justified in 1/10th or 1/100th of what they did.


    Yeah, I'm sure that if the Zionists had been nice, docile, good-neighborly Jews, the Palestinians would have welcomed them, and they would all have sung Shalom Aleichem around the campfire. Everyone loves docile Jews.

     


    Look, there are other points in the spectrum between "nice, docile" and "leading them to the gas chamber". The Palestinians didn't gas the Jews, so should not be treated orr slurred as if they did. Yes, it's a shitty complicated situation over there and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but that's not a good reason to resort to awful hyperbolic assertions of crimes against humanity to make a point - whether Wattree or you.


    I absolutely did not meant to equate Palestinians with Nazis, though I can see how it came off that way. Rather, I meant to dismiss the myth that Israelis brought antipathy on themselves by being repressive, racist jerks. I see no way that large numbers of Jews could have emigrated to Palestine (or anywhere else) without instigating an anti-semitic backlash, no matter how well they behaved. I also hoped to convey why Jews tend to have so little faith in the goodwill of their non-Jewish neighbors and why they needed a secure homeland of their own.


    No prob - understand it's difficult to discuss this matter without going stark crazy and tripping over logic to be both restrained and comprehensive and properly ambivalent but self-righteous.


    The writer proclaims that no matter how he asks the question nobody has answered why zionism isn't racism.  In fact, the writer should first explain why zionism, an expression of the national aspirations of the Jewish People, is automatically racism.  In the past, the writer has dismissed Judaism as nothing more than a religion, notwithstanding that Jews in all their diversity still share a common bond forged over the centuries.  To call the national aspirations of the Jewish People, as distinguished from any other people, inherently racist is both ignorant and IMO anti-semitic at the core.

    Now the writer seems to conflate the worst actions of Israel the state with the inherent racist nature of Zionism that he claims to be a given.  But the writer in the end assumes a fact without evidence, i.e. that zionism is racism, and then challenges us to disprove an unproven assertion.

    Such hatred spewed from one article -- albeit not unlike prior articles -- and yet the writer has probably never even read Herzl, or any of the earlier Zionists to come up with his given, i.e. that the national aspirations of the Jewish People is something fundamentally racist.  In any event, where I come from, the writer bears an initial burden of proof, i.e. the writer should demonstrate that zionism is racism before anyone should give him the attention he seems to believe he is entitled based upon this essay.


    Better like Ali G to call it "racialist". Of course giving land to a people that's been decimated multiple times is somewhat akin to quotas and affirmative action. Certainly only Republicans think of being "color blind" or religion blind when that  color or religion is on its knees at the wrong end of a gun butt. "Hey, I'm white, kinda-Christian-spawned and on top!  Let's stop the musical chairs right now!!!"  And that musical chairs is a bit like the Jewish quandary - sure, they can go settle somewhere - except all those chairs are filled. (and yeah, even if Greenland it'd be taking some walrus' habitat, a major uproar I'm sure).

    Thousands of peoples have migrated around and pushed others out and assimilated and stuck out in different ways. The Celts started out in Central Europe - somehow later they ended up in Ireland & then migrated Northeast to Scotland - is that crazy or what? Despite that late migration, no one's sitting around clamoring about the land they took. Certainly there was something in Scotland before.


    I don't know what you call it I guess, and perhaps Ali G is correct, but I just think that what we are writing in response to is something that fails to appropriately distinguish between terrible things that Israel has done and still does and the notion that Zionism is inherently whatever.  How's that!? 

     


    How dare you say "inherently" whatever - it's obviously a learned whatever behavior whatever the others say. Obviously.


    Hello Bruce . . .

    Would you agree that there may be individual Zionists who may be racists but Zionism in it's most basic and purest form is NOT racist?

    Now to my point. I'm sure you can tell me who wrote these words in 1923:

    ''All sorts of catchwords are used against Zionism; people invoke Democracy, majority rule national self-determination.  Which means, that the Arabs being at present the majority in Palestine, have the right of self-determination, and may therefore insist that Palestine must remain an Arab country.  Democracy and self-determination are sacred principles, but sacred principles like the Name of the Lord must not be used in vain-to bolster up a swindle, to conceal injustice. The principle of self-determination does not mean that if someone has seized a stretch of land it must remain in his possession for all time, and that he who was forcibly ejected from his land must always remain homeless.  Self-determination means revision – such a revision of the distribution of the earth among the nations that those nations who have too much should have to give up some of it to those nations who have not enough or who have none, so that all should have some place on which to exercise their right of self-determination.  And now when the whole of the civilised world has recognised that Jews have a right to return to Palestine, which means that the Jews are, in principle, also "citizens" and "inhabitants" of Palestine, only they were driven out, and their return must be a lengthy process, it is wrong to contend that meanwhile the local population has the right to refuse to allow them to come back and to that "Democracy”. The Democracy of Palestine consists of two national groups, the local group and these who were driven out, and the second group is the larger.''

    If others here simply search the first sentence of that phrase no doubt they can find out who wrote the text.

    My main point in this is that the following key sentence cuts both ways.

    ''Democracy and self-determination are sacred principles, but sacred principles like the Name of the Lord must not be used in vain-to bolster up a swindle, to conceal injustice.''

    There has been a whole passel of swindles and loads of injustice served up from both sides over the past 92 years.

    How is the cycle to be broken?


    ~OGD~

    .


    Perhaps the topic just gets boring as it gets less rational and more subjective.

    There is no "right" of return for anyone - not Arabs/Palestinians, not Jews. The Mongol hordes displace millions across most of the earth - they're not moving back in. Central Asia has become Turkic - it wasn't always that way, but will be until any further large invasions. Crimea being Russian is another fact on the ground - it will stay that way because we don't have a forceable alternative, just like we didn't have a forceable way to keep it Ukrainian or to keep the Tatars there or anything else. Might makes right (mostly). The UN can go bugger itself. Poland got shifted to the left 100km after WWII - the Germans lost, Ukrainians and Belorus gained, but it was a Russian fiat and the statute of limitations have run out. The Britsish starved and harassed millions of Irish to emigrate to the Americas - but they don't get to come back and claim land in Dublin and Cork, except according to current Irish & EU immigration laws. The Cherokee can come back to Alabama but they're not getting their land back (unless they buy it). The UN thought it was giving the right of return to Serbian Kosovars - it remains powerless to do so. Natives were displaced all over the 2 Americas - only a handful got any compensation, and none get to "go back". Life sucks, we move on to where it sucks less, and then we die.

    For all the passage here rails against illegal seizure, when will the Canaanites get to return to the land the Jews so harshlyseized, the Semitic people they righteously slaughtered?  just another pesky unanointed "other" to be dispersed with. 7 years of slaughter, like shore leave for a bunch of randy sailors. And then the Philistines came along and made the issue moot - they were all fucked. Considering the doubtfulness of even the 40 years in the Sinai (e.g. absolutely no archaelogical trace despite being desert), we can guess how questionable many of the claims from Biblical sources are. Push forward anyhow?

    Back to modern times - no one's forcing Japan and China to be less homogenous, less discriminatory towards foreigners. But they're just obvious targets - most of the world is still pretty unicultural and intolerant to others - possible a bit tolerant for curious immigrants, but certainly not anything that threatens its existence or identity. Only the US passed an immigration law and promotes policies that will greatly change its face over the next 50 years as primarily Mexicans rise to 1/3 of the population. Our prerogative I guess, but I wouldn't pretend that this is how the rest of the universe works.



    So Arabs in the Middle East should wipe out Israel or face the fate of native Americans in what is now the United States?


    They should simply understand the playing field and historically how things typically turn out. Or not. I frankly don't give a shit if any of them commit hara kiri or a futile charge of the light brigade - I've no dog in this fight, plus I don't like dogs that much anyway.


    So drone use is an expected response to IEDs?


    You're over 21 - read the papers & figure it out.


    The point is that the "stuff happens" view is not the way of the world. The natural state is for people to rebel against oppression. The objections range from slave rebellions at sea and on land, to Indians rejecting British cruelty and rule. Vietnamese rebelled. Woman fought for the vote. People fought against Jim Cros laws. Gays are not giving up their fight despite legislations in Indiana, Arizona, and Arkansas chomping at the bit to suppress their rights. People fight surveillance and drone use. The natural state of things is to fight oppression. 

    In the particular case of the Palestinians, they are penned in and dependent on Israel for funds. There is no viable two-state option for relief. They have nothing to lose by going to the UN. They have nothing to lose by fighting. Hamas has gained more support.


    There is always a small group that refuses to submit. Sometimes they die win like at Masada. Sometimes they succeed against a more powerful force like in South Africa. Sometimes they use nonviolent means like Ghandi or MLK. Sometimes they use violence. Small groups historically serve as a Indus for change.

    People were killed for unionizing. People were killed for voting. They persisted. They did not accept the "That's the way the world works argument." They protested on local and national levels.


    Many more people submit than fight oppression, and few who fight are successful, which largely explains the reluctance. it's great stuff for movies, but it's rare in real life and typically works only with a half-compassionate enemy (British India, wives back home) or when the enemy is decisively weakened (Ottoman Empire, Soviet Union + The Wall).

    As for "fighting drone use" - how does a Pakistani villager fight it? aerial IEDs?

    As for gay rights, the movement piggy-backed on modern liberal society and previous analogues with women's suffrage and black civil rights. Little actual "fighting" was required, unlike the continued suffering of blacks in the street and in the workplace. Women took 200 years or so to win the vote, and the number of women protesting was minute.

    Hamas may "gain more support", but that doesn't make it successful - though it's not clear what a successful Palestinian strategy could even be - both tactics & outcome.


    But the folks who don't submit are amazing. They change things. Obviously, if you only sit on the sidelines and criticize, things definitely won't change. If you fail, you learn. Failure is not the end.


    Hi OGD, yes on your first question. The only Zionists I have ever met have been of the human species variety. ;)

    On your second quote by Jabotinsky, point taken, and after he died in 1940 his followers ended up fighting Ben Gurion and the Palmach turned IDF, and at times more than they fought the combined Arab states and the Palestinians.  He is of course in many ways the father of the current Likudniks, not the least of whom is the foreign leader most unlikely to be invited to a cocktail party  when the UNGA convenes -- BB! 

    I forgot your third point.  I do not know anymore how the cycle will be broken.  I hold on to the hope for a two-state negotiated settlement, and there is nothing a Zionist American Jew like me is more frightened of than the prospect that this issue will be left to a United Nations that has not shown balance when it comes to Israel.  But the president is holding out that prospect, and you and others may feel that that is the way to a solution.  I understand the reasoning behind that.

    Finally, I don't wish to fan flames, but it hurts me personally to comment on a post that I consider to be both factually in the twilight zone, and reflective of a disposition I want no part of.  But your comments and questions are excellent -- subject to the caveat that those who wish to prove the course of human events by quotation of this or that person sometimes do not get the whole story -- from yours truly who is forever trying to figure out the whole story (p.s. this is meant as snark)!


    Thank you ... Bruce

    Yours is a very reasonable and thoughtful response.

    If you'll notice I have not directly responded to the author of this post. Until there is a glimmer of enlightenment exhibited by the original author by way of him having a deeper understanding and full knowledge of the nature of this subject there's no way to communicate with him.

    Thanks again for you response.

    ~OGD~

    .


    The issues in the region could have been resolved long ago, but there are hard-liners, like Netanyahu, in Israel who don't want them resolved, because they want to use "security" as a pretext to continue their land-grab. But they, and we, are engaged in a global game of Israeli roulette, because everybody in the region hates the Israelis so intensely that they're prepared to die to strike a blow against Israel - and regardless to what we do, we're not going to be able to keep the nuclear genie in the bottle indefinitely.  Pakistan is already a nuclear power, so if Islamic extremists ever gain control of Pakistan, Israel is toast, because many of the people in the region feel so frustrated,  put upon, and filled with hatred toward Israel, they don't care whether they die or not. Martyrdom is a very significant part of their culture, so they'll consider it an honorable event to go out in a blaze of glory - and lets call a hat a hat, they feel that way with very good cause. Injustice will do that to you.
    .
    So the entire world needs to come together and FORCE Israel to get its act together and start acting like a good neighbor and a responsible member of the world community instead of running around trying to sabotage peace agreements, because this is not just about Israel.  People like Netanyahu - with the help of other fanatics (on both sides), and the mindless greed of the war profiteers - are placing the entire world - your family, and my family - in jeopardy, and personally, I don't appreciate it.
    .
    Thus, the issue should be resolved in the very same way it was created - in the United Nations (or in that case, The League of Nations). The nations of the world should take an evenhanded approach to the situation instead of always trying to give Israel a leg up.  First, the world should DEMAND that Israel return to pre-1967 borders.  Secondly, they should send nuclear arms inspectors into BOTH Israel and Iran and destroy both country's nuclear arms capabilities, and then guarantee both nations' security (What makes Israel either more deserving, and/or trustworthy, of having nuclear arms than Iran?) - and yes, Israel ALREADY has nuclear arms. Third, the United States should stop supplying Israel with war toys and take the $3.15 billion it spends on Israel every year and use that money to make a better life for Palestinians as compensation for our atrocious meddling in the area. And finally, if Israel refuses to go along with the resolution, the world should place an embargo on them and let them try to survive in the desert completely isolated from the rest of the world.  Problem solved - the Zionists have a secure place to live, so they are no longer "FORCED"  to steal land, and the Palestinians are compensated for the injustice they've endured.


    Wattree,

    Thank you for trying to bridge a gap between the to of us, and I appreciate that, which of course is part of the Jew in me.  Deal with it.

    More directly, I don't believe you accept that Jews are a People, and so you just fundamentally cannot see Zionism other than through a very narrow, and with due respect, incomplete prism.  And if you see me as nothing more than a racist, because I have never shied from my Zionist beliefs, as an initial matter why should I take you seriously at all?   I do so because you ask me to and because you and I post here, and because you are a valued contributor and I don't have any interest in interfering with that.  And I don't question your right to post whatever you want, and I mean that.

    In any event, you see Zionism as another form of colonialism and I don't take issue with that argument per se, but it is an incomplete assessment IMO of both Zionism in theory as well as the historical circumstances under which the State of Israel was founded, and what has happened since then to create and perpetuate what has become an untenable situation for Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank.  So be it.

    I appreciate those who cite to the Holocaust as a basis for UN action leading to the creation of the State of Israel, and of course that was a factor.  I know that up close and personal, and while  I claim no special rights as an American to speak on this issue,I do understand and agree that after the Holocaust and the fact that the surviving remnants of European Jewry had no other place to go, the world, or enough of it as reflected in a UN resolution vote to partition, saw the establishment of the State of Israel as both necessary and just. 

    That said, I don't shy away from the notion that, at the dawn of the last century, as Zionism as a movement led to increasing Jewish emigration from Europe to Israel, that at that time and for the millenia in fact, nobody, even in the Arab world, and even in Palestine, ever questioned the ties of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel.  And there may indeed be seeds of Western colonialism in that recognition, but the special ties of Jews to the Land of Israel is not something that was simply invented in the 19th century to justify a colonial enterprise in what the Romans named Palestine after their final defeat of the Jews in or about 120 AD.

    Finally, given the president's position at this point, I would expect that we will be hearing more and more about using the UN as a way to break the stalemate.

    Peace,

    Bruce


    I've definitely learned a lot about the Isreal-Palestine history from reading links supplied by both you and PP. One thing that comes to mind is the other I-P division that happened around a similar time - India-Pakistan. Many Hindus were displaced from Pakistan, and to a lesser degree Muslims from India ("voluntarily", but primarily due to the harassment they were receiving). Hindus moving into India took over places that Muslims had departed. Similarly, Jews moving into Israel (and many people forget that many Jews already lived in Israel) moved into houses made vacant by Palestinians who were forced out. It was unfortunate, but that's what happened many, many years ago. (As Americans, we're living in a mighty fragile glass house there.) I don't know the statistics, but a counter-point to my analogy is that I believe more Jews moved in to Israel than Hindus in to India, but I could be wrong on that. (It's trivially true as a percentage of the existing populations, but India is so much more populous.)

    Just some random thoughts.


    Bruce,
    .
    I feel a very close tie and the Jewish people.  Jews have played a very important part in my life. I could go into it - and I just might in the future, but it would take an article that is twice the length of the one that we're commenting on. But suffice it to say that if it wasn't for Jews I wouldn't even be capable of writing what I do.
    .
    However, a Jew also introduced me to epistemology (the science of thinking). As a result, many people don't understand how I think - including many Black people - because I make it a point to separate logical thought from sentiment. "Feelings" have absolutely no place in logical thought. Take this computer, for example,. It couldn't function if it had to take "grey areas" into account. It would crash.  It bases everything it does on simply answering one question - yes, or no (1 or 0). That's they way I think. I keep life simple by sticking to the bottom line.  My woman calls me "spock." ALL issue can be broken down to what's right, and what's wrong. when we start trying to justify or tap dance around issues, it only serves to confuse the issue. So Jewish history - or Black history for that matter - have absolutely nothing to do with our current behavior. 

    .

    .

    So for me, what the Zionists are doing in Israel and/or Palestine, boils down to whether it is right or wrong - period.  And as I see it,  they're wrong - period. While watching what happened to the Jewish people during the holocaust  has made my eyes moist more than once, that's irrelevant to what's taking place today.  I don't base my thinking on emotions, and no one ever should. That's how you get played.  So while there IS a place for compassion, that place is not while trying to make logical assessments. So in the case of what's currently going on in Palestine, Jewish history is completely meaningless to my assessment of the issue, and I'm insulted by anyone who even TRIES  to send me on a guilt trip based on my assessment. I look upon it as a silly, disingenuous, and transparent ploy - and I would look at it EXACTLY the same way if it were the Jews being victimized. I don't have a favored people - and I'm not buying into the nonsense that God does either. I'm on the side of truth, and the truth is, God is not in the real estate business, and I'm insulted by anyone who tries to convince me that he is.


    Just to interject into your very nice conversation with Bruce. Your "is it right or wrong" sounds exactly like the GW Bush-ism "you are either with us or against us".

    One is either with or against Watree's judgment, and what he perceives is "truth".

    Your scale of life experience must be fairly narrow, or your ego fairly huge or be somewhere in a grey area between, to believe in judging not only what individuals might believe, support or do, but in this case what nations and peoples believe, support or do, with such a simplistic 0 or 1 verdict.

    It's fine if you pursue that way of thinking yet for many, experience with people, cultures and knowledge of history normally temper such an absolutist ideology, and it is an ideology to say there are no 'grey areas'.


    NCD,

    .

    Let me ask you a question, NCD. If I came into your home and claimed the right to possession based on the history of what happened to Black people during slavery and Jim Crow, would that be right, wrong, or grey?


    Regardless of what unrelated analogies you can come up with, the Middle East is a far more complicated place than our neighborhoods.

    Israel is a nation, it's citizens, Arab and Jew, are not going to pick up and go somewhere else. 

    It will not allow itself to be destroyed by Hamas, or other lawless Sunni militants, as has happened all across the region to Yazidis, Turkmen, Shabaks, Sabaeans and Shiite communities.


    The Holocaust might be irrelevant to "what is happening today", but it isn't irrelevant to the moral case for Zionism, and might not be irrelevant to the question of whether Zionism is racist. Wattree talks about all the bad stuff that Israel does, but is Zionism about nothing but Israeli atrocities?  Wattree hasn't addressed the case for the 1947 partition plan, which was arguably an alternative to all the bad stuff that has happened since 1948.

    While Wattree congratulates himself on how logical he is(he seems to congratulate himself a lot), I think there is a good deal of emotion in his writings.


    Emotions are the opposite of Spock and Watree's wife calls him Spock.....?

    Emotional reactions/obsession does not often lead to progress, peace or sound decisions.

    Interestingly, Friedman makes a good observation in Tell Me How this Ends Well on the passing of Lee Kuan, the rise of the East and the collapse of the Middle East today:

    (Lee Kuan-like autocrat): “My people, we’re going to take away your freedom, but we’re going to give you the best education, infrastructure and export-led growth policies money can buy. And eventually you’ll build a big middle class and win your freedom.” Over that same period, Arab autocrats came to their people and said, “My people, we’re going to take away your freedom and give you the Arab-Israel conflict.”.

    The Muslims of the Middle East were largely OK with that, which is why we have 2nd or 3rd generation Palestinian refugee camps, one today having been taken over by ISIS in Damascus, although apparently 80-90% of the residents had already fled.

    I support western style secular democracy in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE and Saudi Arabia. Once that becomes a reality I believe a secular one state solution for Israel would be irresistible and unstoppable in its attainment.


    Wattree -  I distinguish between "Aryans" wanting an exclusively Aryan Fatherland and Jews wanting a Jewish state.  In 1933, Aryans/Nordics/fair-skinned Europeans were not a historically oppressed group of people and were in control of various governments.  In that same year, Jews had for thousands of years faced oppression including pogroms/murder and exile.  The theory by 1945 that sure seemed reasonable was that only in their own country could Jews ever feel safe.  Nevertheless, I do not support the idea of a Jewish state.  I support a one-state solution in which all residents of Israel (from Gaza to the Golan Heights and the West Bank) are deemed citizens with very strong constitutional protections in place for all religions and non-religions.


    I think one could say it's like comparing a "Miss White America" pageant with a "Miss Black America" pageant.


    Hal,
    .
    I'm going to ask you the same question above:  
    .
    "If I came into your home and claimed the right to possession based on the history of what happened to Black people during slavery and Jim Crow, would that be right, wrong, or grey?"
    .

    People - ALL PEOPLE -  have a tendency to suspend common sense to justify ANYTHING they feel passionate about, or even just happens to be convenient to their interests. For example, in spite of ALL of their claims of "Freedom, Justice, and the American way,"  this nation found it "convenient" to suspend everything they claimed to believe in just long enough to commit genocide against Native Americans and accommodate slavery. And IN SPITE OF all of their claims of fighting for "Freedom, Justice, and Human Rights" during WWII, they made Black American war heroes give their seats on a train to Nazi prisoners of war.  So Black people look at White proclamations, justifications, and soapboxes a little differently than you do. In short, we're experts at seeing through White bullshit, and this Zionist claim that's going on in Palestine is a perfect example of just that.
    .
    I was raised and nurtured to be a jazz musician, but I just HAD  to become a writer for one reason, and one reason only - because all of my life I've had an irresistible urge to tell the world to spare me the bullshit.
    .

    I've Known Bullshit

    In
    Every newspaper, every nook,
    I see blatant bullshit wherever I look.
    Prolific bullshit, 
    pro and con,
    Man deceiving man, 
    like human pawns.
    .
    We
    Bullshit our children 
    whenever we can
    On the role of government, 
    and the sojourn of man;
    We bullshit the people 
    regarding their lot,
    While failing to address 
    the conservative plot.
    And now I hear even Santa'a myth,
    So even my mother got caught up in this.
    . 
    So,
    My threshold for Bullshit is extremely low,
    I sense him wherever he hides;
    While Langston Hughes has known his rivers,
    I've known Bullshit in every disguise:

    . 
    I've 
    Known bullshit lovers of innocent women,
    Who fades with a piece a ass,
    I've known bullshit preachers who loved the Lord,
    But not nearly as much as your cash;
    I've known bullshit politicians, 
    who "Just want to help" 
    Right up til they get your vote,
    Then after reciting their bullshit oath
    can't wait to start cuttin' your throat.
    .
    Yes,
    Bullshit's a stalker who seems to haunt me;
    I see him wherever I go--
    On the street, in the store,
    In the eyes of my lover,
    Though I try to deny that it's so.
    .
    I used to 
    Simply shut my eyes, 

    so I wouldn't see him no more,
    But my ears betrayed me and--
    Knock, Knock, Knock--
    "It's Bullshit. Open the door!"

    .
    So
    I came up with a plan to take a stand, a
    nd 
    Confront Bullshit wherever he hides;
    Like the terrorist he is, you must weed him out,
    By confronting him where he resides.
    .
    I learned
    That shit will be shit because shit is shit's nature,
    So it's really not Bullshit's fault;
    It's the fault of the people for embracing ignorance,
    For the enemy of Bullshit is thought.

    Eric L. Wattree
     


    Wattree - The legacy of slavery hangs heavily on the land and did so even more heavily in 1866. I believe that it would have been appropriate then for the federal government to force white property owners within a given community - especially if the owners were former slave holders - to sell property to the government at a fair price with the lands forfeited to former slaves.

    This is not analogous to what Jews were facing in 1947.  Jewish seizure of formerly Palestinian lands in the Middle East with the mandate of Great Britain and the UN was not an appropriate response to the horrors of the Holocaust and at least 1,100 years of European anti-Semitism.  That said, I believe there are sufficient historical reasons to look at the creation of the state of Israel and see forces at work other than racism and greed.


    Hal,
    .
    There are many ways for people to segment, or segregate, themselves, and it's completely arbitrary.  Some people divide themselves according to race, others, creed, and still others color. I choose another way. I identify with the underdog. So I  divide people in only one way - good people as oppose to bad people -  because I recognize that it  is the malevolent nature of man where if we were all of the exact same race, creed, or color, the right-handed people would find a justification for committing atrocities  against the left-handed people. So while people who were arbitrarily separated out because of their Jewish religion undoubtedly suffered greatly during WWII, I don't see them as merely Jews; I see them as my people - the underdogs. 
    .
    So I look upon Zionists a little differently than many. I don't look upon them as merely Jews, because all Jews are not Zionists. I see people like Netanyahu as the enemy, because he's committing the same kind of atrocities against my people - the underdogs - in this case, the Palestinians -  as Hitler did to my people - the underdogs - in that case, the Jews. That allows me to keep things in perspective.  So for me, no arbitrary group of people has cart blanche to victimize another group for ANY reason, including their history. That allows me to keep things simple - any group who victimizes any other group for ANY reason, is the enemy as far as I'm concerned. For me, they're s, regardless to what their justification might be, because Hitler had a justification too.  If the Palestinians managed to get the upper hand and started slaughtering Israelis, they would become my enemy. So I don't want to hear any heart-wrenching tales about how bad you've been treated over the millennia. We all have a story to tell. All I'm interested is how you're currently treating others. That's how I keep life simple, and avoid having to deal with self-serving bullshit.
    .
    And by the way, Netanyahu says that Iran can't be trusted - how many nuclear weapons does Israel have? Is he willing to agree to let us send nuclear inspectors in there?  If not, he needs to just shut the hell up.


    WATTREE: "no arbitrary group of people has cart blanche to victimize another group for ANY reason, including their history."

    So HAMAS does not have carte blanche to dig terror tunnels to kill Israeli's or anyone they can put a bullet into at the end of the tunnels? Nor fire thousands of rockets into Israel because of 'history'?

    And as much the Jews, Christians and Arab citizens of Israel would appreciate your support, it would appear they do not want it enough to run the risk of allowing HAMAS, ISIS, Nusra Front, Al Qeada, Boko Haram, Hezbollah  or "Palestinians.....to get the upper hand and start(ed) slaughtering Israelis".


    NCD,
    .
    "So HAMAS does not have carte blanche to dig terror tunnels to kill Israeli's or anyone they can put a bullet into at the end of the tunnels? Nor fire thousands of rockets into Israel because of history?"
    .

    No they don't.



     


    I can't agree with Wattree that what happened to Jews was completely irrelevant, since the main point of Zionism was to find a solution to the problem of Jews getting kicked around. That doesn't mean Jews were entitled to expel Arabs. But what about the partition plan, which Wattree seems unwilling to talk about, even though we keep bringing it up? He only wants to talk about the atrocities, as though Zionism, like Nazism, was never about anything but slaughter and persecution.


    Shorter version: Wattree seems unwilling to talk... he just wants to lecture.
     


    Aaron, you asked,
    .
    "But what about the partition plan, which Wattree seems unwilling to talk about, even though we keep bringing it up?"
     

    I've simply learned to stick to the bottom line, and the bottom line to my piece was the atrocities being committed by the Zionists against the Palestinian people, and the theft of Palestinian land. That's it, and there is absolutely nothing that can justify those actions; just like there was absolutely nothing that could justify Hitler's atrocities against the Jews. So there's no reason to even discuss Jewish history, because it has nothing to do with what's currently going on. The Palestinians were in Palestine minding their own business when the Nazis were persecuting the Jews. It happened in Germany, and the atrocities were committed by German people, so Germany is the nation that should have been partitioned.
    .
    But as I've mentioned earlier, what's done is now done. It was the unjust actions of a previous generation, and we'll never be able to put that genie back in the bottle, because we now have two generations of Israelis who were born in Israel, had absolutely noting to do with the injustice that was committed before their birth, and they have just as much right to their place of birth as anyone else. So at this point, we merely have to find the most just way of moving forward.
    .
    In that regard, what seems most just to me is that the nations of the world - who committed the initial injustice in the first place - come together and DEMAND that Israel return to it 1967 borders, and then send nuclear inspectors into both Israel and Iran and eradicate all nuclear weapons, and guarantee the security of both nations. Then, the United states should start using the $3.15 billion a year that we spend on Israel's war toys and use that money to rebuild Palestine, build universities, and pay for the education of Palestinian children in order to compensate them for the injustice that's been committed against them. It would also provide them with a future to look forward to, so they'll have something to focus on other than engaging in Jihads. 
    .
    Thereafter, if Israel refuses to accept those terms, the nations of the world should bring sanctions against them and isolate them in the desert, just like they did Iran. 
    .
    Problem solved - the Zionists have their own homeland and security, the Palestinians have their own homeland and security, and the Arabs are being compensated for being intruded upon - case closed.
    .

     

     


    I think I made it clear that I wasn't justifying expulsions, massacres, etc. I'm talking about partition. In the real world, a Jewish state in Germany wasn't an option. It was either Palestine or nothing. I think it is understandable that Jews wouldn't accept nothing.

    If Wattree is unwilling to talk about anything but the atrocities, he will never have any understanding of Zionism. If nothing is discussed but atrocities, of course Zionism will be convicted of racism. It's like saying all we need to know about African nationalism is the Rwandan genocide.


    Aaron, you said,
    .
    "If Wattree is unwilling to talk about anything but the atrocities, he will never have any understanding of Zionism." 
    .

    That's called getting to the bottom line, Aaron. There IS no justification for committing atrocities. "Understanding Zionism" has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, there's nothing TO  understand about Zionism. It's simply a convenient excuse for taking the land of others - "God promised us this land?"  Come on, man. That's utter nonsense on it's face. God is not in the real estate business.  Would you be as accepting of the very same concept if I came to you home, kicked down the door, and then told you to get out, because "God told me he wanted me to have your house?"   I don't think so. You'd be mad as hell. But then I told you to calm down. Just go read up on reparations for slavery and you'll have a better understanding of what I'm doing.  
    .
    But of course, my actions would be totally ridiculous, just as the concept of Zionism is totally ridiculous - and many Jews completely agree with my point of view.

    And with regard to partitioning Germany. Germany was the nation that committed the atrocities against the Jews, so why wasn't partitioning Germany an option?  Tell me. Exactly what took Germany off the table?  


    You said it yourself--the Allies weren't willing to set up a Jewish state in Europe. I don't think anything could have persuaded them to them to do so.

    Also, "understanding Zionism" has a lot to do with it. This "we need to know nothing about Zionism except its crimes" isn't a very reasonable or objective approach. How about "we need to know nothing about Marxism except the crimes of Stalin and Mao" or "we need to know nothing about Indian independence except the massacres that occurred in 1947-48".


    Aaron, you said,
    .
    "You said it yourself--the Allies weren't willing to set up a Jewish state in Europe. I don't think anything could have persuaded them to them to do so."

    So are you admitting that the Zionist presence in Palestine is based on racism and convenience?  
    .
    And please, explain to me what I need to know about Zionism that would justify the atrocities being committed against the Palestinian people.  But before you even start, please understand that I'm going to dismiss out of hand any explanation that begins with what "GOD" supposedly told a group of people who believed in talkin' snakes.


    I'd much rather believe  that our first parents were deceived, by what appeared to be a talking snake, than to believe fools. who believe male and female came out of the muck on their own, to begin procreation. 

    I prefer to accept the simple,

    1 In the a beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

    Genesis 1:1

    rather than accept the convoluted theories by many who miss the point; that it started somewhere and he didn't need you or your thoughts of how and when.

    Mankind's objective in the whole arrangement of life,  is to discover the why  and what is the purpose, not the how'  for we already know the who and the how life came to be and this should be sufficient. 

    The Earth was created by him and he absolutely has the right to decide, who lives and where. 

    He's the owner/landlord.


    I'd much rather believe that an omnibenevolent god has a wonderful plan for the earth and all the living beings on it and we're all on the way to a beautiful, kind, compassionate place and not that sociopaths have accrued so much money and power they control much of what happens.

    I'd much rather believe that Jesus loves me and when I die he will take me up to heaven so I can  live in bliss for all eternity but I've seen no evidence of it.

    I'd much rather believe that women find me handsome and irresistible but the reality is I'm short, bald, and scrawny and while not ugly I'm no women's tall dark and handsome dream date. The reality is if I wasn't smart and funny I'd probably never get laid.

    I'd much rather believe that we will get through the earth shattering crises we face and the future looks bright but it seems equally possible that we will destroy the earth and most of the people living on it.

    There's lots of things I'd rather believe but mostly I'd rather look  at the the information and evidence, try to learn and understand that information and evidence, and make the best choices I can based on that information and evidence. I'd rather do that than live in some fantasy land where wishes and dreams become "truth"


    The fantasy occurred when mankind decided it didn't need to listen to the Creator of mankind.

    A loving creator/father who wanted mankind  to live in the Paradise the loving creator had made and fully intended mankind to live in peace and harmony with one another

    Until, mankind decided to rebel against that plan, thinking they didn't need to listen to their father/creator, thinking  they had a better plan. 

    The evidence is clear, mankind couldn't keep paradise, nor can it ever deliver it to all of mankind outside of the assistance from the Creator. 

    The evidence is being presented to the Higher court; unless the promoters of self are dealt with,  the Earth would be doomed. 

    For the sake of the meek, who will inherit the Earth,  the trial is about over.


    If you had any evidence besides what some ignorant savage who lived a couple of thousand years ago said we'd have seen it by now.

    What ever. you can believe in any crazy fairy tale you want. You can believe in Santa Claus for all I care. But when there's a debate on health care in America and you start quoting the dentist from Rudolf the Red Nosed Rain Deer, and when you talk about how the elves worked for Santa for free when we're discussing minimum wage laws, and if you tell me how Santa wants his elves to have sex when we're talking about gay rights, I don't have to respect the dumb ass notions you get from your fucking crazy fairy tales.

    And "Santa Claus" wants is exactly what I think when you tell me what "god" wants.

    I'd much rather believe that all the right wing christian delusional beliefs in fairy tales is an aberration and that otherwise you're all sane rational intelligent people. But unfortunately the evidence is all to the contrary.

    So the bishop of the local church was out golfing with his altar boy as a caddie. On the first putt he just missed the hole. "Shit, Son of a bitch. I missed," he said. The caddie said, "Father, please, your language. It's offensive." The bishop responded, "You're right. I'm so sorry. If I ever use language like that again may god strike me dead with a bolt of lighting.

    But on the next hole the ball nipped the cup and rolled around it before rolling away. "Shit. Fucking shit. I missed again," the bishop exclaimed.

    Suddenly the sky turned black. Out of the darkest cloud a bolt of lighting came down and stuck the altar boy dead where he stood.

    And out of the cloud we heard, "Fucking shit. Son of a bitch. I missed again."

    You know resistance, if there is a god the evidence suggests that little story is the most accurate portrayal of him.

     


    My guess is he hit the little prude brat on purpose. Or maybe both of 'em - doesn't much like witnesses.

    I do find it strange that a blog supposedly for grownups keeps devolving into long *serious* discussions bout jokers parting the sea with their staffs or dietary rules from 3500 BC or other kinds of arcane mythological mass hallucinations. Most of us figured out by end of college you stop talking about the acid trip as "real" and just accept that it was fun as hell but dammit, work calls. But instead, some people insist Classic Comics are real for the rest of their lives. Fritz the Cat or Tank Girl I'd be at least amused - but slow-plodding over-vexed guys in tunics aren't my style. Can't we see some Merovingians in blood sport instead?


    Well we've got a child in our midst who thinks the stories her mommy told her when she was on her knee shitting in her diapers are the "truth." I ignore her nine times out of ten but occasionally someone must spank her or she'll soon be wiping her shitty diapers all over the walls.


    The only one smearing the contents of diapers is YOU.

    Santa clause is of mans origination; as is the promotion (lie) of a God  who makes people suffer in fiery Hell and these are but a few of the myths promoted by liars.  

    Because of Freewill, You don't have to believe in the Truth.  

    You'd rather ignore the facts and promote rebellion. just as much as those who spread the lies smearing and defaming God .

    You find the lies convenient for your use, as you play your role as well as any of the others bent on smearing God,  in order to attack and ridicule those searching for the way out of this pending calamity.  

    The inhabitants of Earth, will never stop the (Foretold), downward spiral, leading to destruction. by mans rulership alone. 

    What is your solution? If you or someone with a brain have one, why hasn't it worked?  You've had 6,000+ years to produce a plan. 

    The only protection for honest hearted folks, is by coming under the protection of our loving father, who will put an end to the rebellion, that began in Paradise;

    A rebellion that has injured and killed millions.  

    Your error in judgment leads to pain and death, for the many who listen to you.


    Santa clause is of mans origination  rotflmao God is of man's origination


     Wattree keeps asking me how I justify atrocities when anyone could see I am NOT doing that. We keep trying to talk about the partition plan, but he refuses to discuss it. I can't understand the weird inferences he draws from my statements.

    I give up.


    That's called getting to the bottom line, Aaron. There IS no justification for committing atrocities. "Understanding Zionism" has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, there's nothing TO  understand about Zionism. 

    Pretzel-break.  See title of post.  Wattree you are so confused by your own arguments, one might think that if it's only atrocities that guide you, then your question about zionism and it's relationship to racism is absolutely immaterial, and in fact but for atrocities perhaps you might be a zionist yourself.  Who knows from what you've written?

    I'm not impressed with your incorrect or disputed factual assertions about what is easy to find on the internet, by your logic or the lack thereof (as you shift from zionism to asserted atrocities and back to original partition), by your petty excuses for your views, and by the graphic language and photos that you so often use to IMO provide you with a substitute for rational discourse.

    I don't think you know anything about what you've written about here.  And that's how I've been taught prejudice develops -- it's a product of ignorance, and particularly scary in smart folk.


    Bruce,
    .
    Address my arguments, not me. How you feel about me is not only irrelevant, but it's a transparent attempt at obfuscation. My argument is perfectly consistent - Zionism is a completely transparent pretext for stealing land from a non-White people, because you couldn't take land from the White people who were the ones who committed the atrocities against you. I don't see anything inconsistent about that - and regardless to what argument you attempt to put forward, you're not going to be able to avoid those facts. 


    I'll do it, Wattree - as I already have.

    Here's Herzl for you:

    "It is founded on the ideas which are a common product of all civilized nations. ... It would be immoral if we would exclude anyone, whatever his origin, his descent, or his religion, from participating in our achievements. For we stand on the shoulders of other civilized peoples. ... What we own we owe to the preparatory work of other peoples. Therefore, we have to repay our debt. There is only one way to do it, the highest tolerance. Our motto must therefore be, now and ever: 'Man, you are my brother.'" (Quoted in "Zion & the Jewish National Idea", in Zionism Reconsidered, Macmillan, 1970 PB, p. 185)

    In his novel, Herzl wrote about an electoral campaign in the new state. He directed his wrath against the nationalist party, which wished to make the Jews a privileged class in Israel. Herzl regarded that as a betrayal of Zion, for Zion was identical to him with humanitarianism and tolerance—and that this was true in politics as well as religion. Herzl wrote:

    "Matters of faith were once and for all excluded from public influence. ... Whether anyone sought religious devotion in the synagogue, in the church, in the mosque, in the art museum, or in a philharmonic concert, did not concern society. That was his [own] private affair." (Quoted in "Zion & the Jewish National Idea", in Zionism Reconsidered, Macmillan, 1970 PB, p. 185)

    Altneuland was written both for Jews and non-Jews: Herzl wanted to win over non-Jewish opinion for Zionism.[39] When he was still thinking of Argentina as a possible venue for massive Jewish immigration, he wrote in his diary:

    "When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly ... It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example ... Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us", The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl, vol. 1 (New York: Herzl Press and Thomas Yoseloff, 1960), pp. 88, 90 hereafter Herzl diaries.


    I have been watching this post from the sidelines. I do think the current version of Zionism has become associated with racism by the UN in 1975, in a book by Jimmy Carter equating the situation with Apartheid, and among non-Zionist Jews. Obviously the UN declaration was reversed in 1991, after collapse of the Soviet bloc.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/17/world/un-repeals-its-75-resolution-equ...

    However many continue to see a racial/ ethnic basis for the plight of the Palestinians and do see racism among some Zionists.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/foxman-is-zionism-racism-you-bet-it-is-all...

    ​The apartheid description of the Israel-Palestine conflict remains alive today 

    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/occupation-becomes-apartheid

    Somehow out of this current mess, the two-state option has to be revived. It needs to happen, but I don't see how it will happen. Palestinians now have nothing to lose from continuing attacks on Israel and Israel feels cornered. There will be no rapid end to the conflict.

    (Note: mondoweiss is described as a "Progressive" site. If there are issues with using it as a source, have at it)

     


    Look, the title of this hit piece is "Could Somebody Please Tell Me The Difference Between Zionism and Routine, Garden Variety Racism?" - not "has Zionism evolved to an inherently racist equation?", or "Is the status quo in Israel/Palestine racist?" or a number of other possibly debatable framings. A bit late to introduce those as alternative topics - the one as posited is simply historically incorrect.

    So we waste lots of digital ink telling Wattree the obvious, including things that he could easily Google himself but for some reason refuses to, and in the end just insults Jews over and over through his persistent ignorance that seems determined to offend despite all his blather about being more Jewish than most Jews.

    (glad he hasn't claimed Obama is the first Jewish president... yet).


    The dynamics are interesting. The founders of Israel were Ashkenazi or Europen. They led the country for years, Likud gained power with support from Mizrani, or Middle Eastern working class Jews. There was a post on the HuffPost (that I can't find now) that noted that Mizrahi supported Likud because they felt the other parties composed of Ashkenazi Jews treated them like dirt. 

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/21/liberal-israelis-netanyahu_n_69...

    Palestinians probably see little difference in Ashkenazi or Mizrahi Israelis.


    Yeah, the Germans thought the Ashkenazi a bit uppity too.

    In 1931, Ashkenazi were about 92% of worldwide Jewish population. These days it's about 3/4.


    I'm talking about an internal conflict between Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews in Israel that it political. Here is a link to the article that I was thinking about. It was an AP article.

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_ETHNIC_VOTE?SITE=AP&SEC...

    Not sure where you are headed with the Germans.


    Wattree's basic problem is that he doesn't want to learn. He asks us to explain Zionism to him, but then he says he doesn't want to know anything about Zionism, that nothing about Zionism is of interest to him except the bad stuff, and so forth. This is willful ignorance, and it makes a meaningful discussion impossible.


    On some issues, people do retreat to their perspective corners. Zionist has become tainted with suppression of an ethnic group. The fact that another suppressed ethnic group had to flee to another region can get lost in the mix. Zionist has been used as a cover for racism. Discussions about Muslims fall prey to the same line of thought. Islam has been damaged by Islamists and Fundamentalists. Muslims who do not agree owing the harsh "legal" penalties meted out by the Saudis or ISIS, for example "have to" speak out against the Islamists to prove that they are one of the good ones. Christians "have to" speak out against some guy on "Duck Dynasty" or Franklin Graham when they make some crazy statement to "prove" that they are right in the head.

    Zionism has been used as a cover for racism. Christianity has been used as a cover for slavery and homophobia. Islam has been used to justify the slaughter of Muslims, Christians, Jews, and atheists. People do focus on the bad things done in the name of whatever. The only thing that you can do is point out where your interpretation of a religion or political movement differs from the crazy. You may not convince another individual to change their position, but you provide some new information to those who read your posts. It also lets people know why you believe what you believe. Zionists can distance themselves from those who have distorted the intent of the movement. It then falls on others to accept or reject your argument.

     


    Double deleted..


    Wattree, I don't want to leave you with the impression that I don't care about any of your arguments, or more importantly that I've not tried to address them here and in your other recent post on these issues I have tried to respond both civilly and constructively, and in particular with respect to your questions about current US policy towards Israel.  I have also tried to deal with your views about Zionism with as much civility as one might be expected to show under the circumstances -- and more perhaps.  But I don't tell you that solidarity among African Americans is racism, because I don't believe that G-d forbid, but you know there are nasty vile folks out there who get off on this white power thing. 

    There are so many more important issues that you and I as Americans face this morning.  Your voice is important here and I really don't want to interfere with that.  I am moving on from this.


    Bruce,
    .
    Address my arguments, not me. How you feel about me is not only irrelevant, but it's a transparent attempt at obfuscation. My argument is perfectly consistent - Zionism is a completely transparent pretext for stealing land from a non-White people because you couldn't take land from the White people who were the ones who committed the atrocities against you. I don't see anything inconsistent about that - and regardless to what argument you attempt to put forward, you're not going to be able to avoid those facts. 
    .
    And regarding your allusion to a possible prejudice on my part. I've spent half of my adult life among Jews. A Jew taught me to write. A Jew by the name of Sid Ostrow taught me this very tactic that I'm using in this debate - "Always seize the bottom line and never budge.  I was also provided for in the Will of an old Jewish fellow by the name of Max Sanow. He was a writer for Red Skelton - "Hey Eric, Ethel called the police on me last night; she tried to charge me with assault with a dead weapon."  Even though he was in his eighties and I was in my twenties, we were like contemporaries in our relationship. I spent at least two hours with him every single day. When he died suddenly, I, literally, got sick and had to take a week off from work.  So I'm completely immune to the charge of being anti-Semitic.  I simply believe in truth, as do most Jews. 42% of the people in Israel are non-religious secular humanists.


    My point is one might be able to response to your arguments if you made any that don't come out looking like a pretzel.  You're all over the place.  And, again, aggressive writing and pictures are not impressive, or persuasive.  In fact, they betray the ignorance I believe you've made sufficiently clear to all.  Res Ipsa Loquitur.

    P.S.  I'm sure you're always impressed by those white dudes who tell you that some of their best friends are African American.  Yea that one does it for me too man.  Good luck Wattree; there are plenty of folks who eat the stuff up in droves that you're writing. They don't say ignorance is bliss for nothing.


    Again, Bruce,
    .

    You're not addressing the facts. You're dealing in an ad hominem. Don't TELL me I'm ignorant SHOW me.  Don't TELL me that my arguments are convoluted, SHOW me. I believe in personal growth, so if you can enlighten me, I'd greatly appreciate your time and effort.


    In fact, there's nothing TO  understand about Zionism. It's simply a convenient excuse for taking the land of others - "God promised us this land?"

    Considering Zionists including Herzl himself considered Argentina, Cyprus, Uganda and the Sinai as options for a homeland, "God promised us this land" was certainly not the only qualifier or even a requirement. [Hertzka's 1890 treatise envisioned Zion on an unoccupied plain of East Africa]. That Herzl expected this land to speak German, not Yiddish nor Hebrew, gives another hint he wasn't terribly concerned about retro historical nostalgia, but firmly European culturally but unwelcome ethnically [as opposed to religiously].

    And with regard to partitioning Germany. Germany was the nation that committed the atrocities against the Jews, so why wasn't partitioning Germany an option?  Tell me. Exactly what took Germany off the table?

    Considering Herzl and other Jews were looking to flee German and French and Russian & other European states' oppression in the 1890's, the Holocaust was undoubtedly the "what" that took Germany off the table. Try the marketing angle - "no longer genocidal! we're now back to just being cruel, harassing and inhumane (and occasionally homicidal) !!!"  If the Jews are paranoid about defensible borders now, how great are the natural defenses in Prussia or Bavaria from a people who proved far worse than any threats the Jews faced before?

    As Michael Berenbaum observed:

    "Every arm of the country's sophisticated bureaucracy was involved in the killing process. Parish churches and the Interior Ministry supplied birth records showing who was Jewish; the Post Office delivered the deportation and denaturalization orders; the Finance Ministry confiscated Jewish property; German firms fired Jewish workers and disenfranchised Jewish stockholders."

    So yeah, a people who'd gone from miserable treatment to unbelievably horrific treatment might be unwilling to make their home in the midst of the their murderers, and considering 2/3 of Jews in Europe were killed, that lost homeland and source of persecution stretched far past just Germany. Poland, France, Hungary, Russia, Greece, Italy, Ukraine, Lithuania...

    I can't believe this is that hard to fathom.

     


    Some of my best friends are racists.

    Am I doing this right?


    if only I could edit it to add:

    (Drops mic, walks off stage.)

    I believe you win the day.


    yeah after reading Mac's comment, I will give you that.

    I hereby render unto Q the Dayly Comment of the Day Award for this here Dagblog Site, the line of the day award given to all of you from all of me (and Mac) to all of you.

    hahahahahahah

    Except some of my best friends are dead.

    hahahahah


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