MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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2 Tribes off the Reservation
By PeraclesPlease on Thu, 10/26/2017 - 6:48am |Longer version here - https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/10/how-to-heal-the-left-liberal-divide
URL:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/oct/26/the-liberal-left-divide-reshaping-american-politics
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Comments
It's not like the other reservation doesn't have such problems:
Top RNC evangelical official resigns
And if a certain someone has his way, using the money he's been bestowed with, it's probablly going to get worse:
McConnell allies declare open warfare on Bannon
By David Weigel, Michael Scherer and Robert Costa @ WashingtonPost.com, Oct, 25
Note the cartoon:
Steve Bannon battles Republican leaders for the soul of their party
By David Horsey @ LATimes.com, Oct. 27
by artappraiser on Fri, 10/27/2017 - 7:10pm
by Peter (not verified) on Fri, 10/27/2017 - 10:30pm
Peter, you're in great form! Commie Clintonites is a new one, globalist parasites, feckless left, dead wood.....while Trumps Munchkin says Wall Street will crash without the trillion plus tax cuts for the rich, including $700 billion for foreign plutocrats. When the Treasury Secretary, the VA head, Trumps Interior Secretary aren't flying in private taxpayer funded jets to Europe.
Trump declares a 3 month opiod emergency with zero funding.
Trump has not canceled NAFTA. No stupid Wall through the desert.
Trumpcare health insurance is up by as much as 48%.
The only thing Trump gives his delusional disciples like you is hate, anger, racism, nazis marching in the streets and a plan for a money grab by the rich which the GOP wants to pay for by cutting Medicare and Social Security.
Trumps other plans:
1. Play golf.
2. Play golf.
3. Nuclear/land war in Asia.
4. Play golf.
No wonder you're so mad!
by NCD on Fri, 10/27/2017 - 11:33pm
He's back, tan, rested...
But what the feck is he talking about? I've got a plantation full of fecks back home, Suthurn style, and here in YourUp I raise fecks in my bathtub when not filled with Sloe Gin or amphetamines. How can he call me "feckless"? I'll even take a feckful enema and eat a feck full of fecks just to prove it.
With deepest respect, your fecking feckful PP
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 2:11am
by Peter (not verified) on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 11:16am
The GOP insurgency:
by NCD on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 11:26am
hah Toles = talent. love the little devil as the moderator and the comment lower right on him (evil media wins again) and the caricature of McConnell is supreme height of the art
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 11:31am
Great points. I didn't even get the media devil profiting off the 'insurgency', Toles is amazing.
by NCD on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 12:55pm
I am simply constantly amazed by your ability to express Trump, it is like you know him inside and out.
He seems happy as a clam lately, doesn't he? Lots of little smirks, more relaxed, tweeting up a storm. Manic phase, all this chaos swirling around: me, me, me, just what he always wanted, a really big time shew, a spectacular. From that, I don't buy for a minute that he himself has fear of Mueller forthcoming, I think only his minions do. He will relish the attention as always. Martyr-in-chief could be fun.....
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 12:58pm
The feckless and disorganized left got 3 million more votes for their candidate than the powerful popular insurgency on the right was able to get for their candidate. A group of entomologists from Germany came by this summer to study insects at the ghost town I work at. The thing they just could not understand is how the loser of an election could be appointed president. Of all that they found crazy about America that was for them the most insane.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 3:39am
That, & with so much illegal activity now documented re: successful efforts to prevent voting and distort people's opinions and emotions, they can keep blaming the winning victim for being a "failed uninspiring candidate".
They seem to forget that Obama did *zilch* to be exciting in 2012, simply running out the clock, but he didn't have to face a billion dollar Russian insurgency along with a better run/better funded GOP kleptocracy, just Mitt Romney, and even there he only won by 5 million votes. As incumbent. After having pulled our economy out of a fire and implementing Obamacare, whatever the warts.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 4:12am
by Peter (not verified) on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 11:44am
Everyone can understand how our system works technically. What people from other democracies don't understand is why we accept it. It's not just Germans. I happen to see entomologists from all over the world since Justin Schmidt, a world famous entomologist, lives in Tucson and is frequent visitor to Ruby. He often brings his guests here and we sit around and chat. The most common response I get from people from other democracies is there would be riots in the street if the person with the most votes didn't get the job.
I don't think you understand Aesop's fable of the fox and the grapes. People in Europe really don't want our political system imported to their country. They're not just pretending.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 12:38pm
I think it's fascinating that you have such fascinating world renowned bugs! Ghost towns more valuable than they are cracked up to be! That you are custodian of the past in more ways than one! Cross cultural input. The stereotypical German scholarship still a reality. Some of my favorite things. Just a thanks for sharing, I enjoyed visualizing. The scenario you describe sounds like a film right out of new German cinema, Wenders or Fassinder et. al.
Edit to add: hopefully some of those scientists learned that rural America is not always portrayed accurately by political polls.
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 12:53pm
Company mining towns aren't just the town but also often the surrounding land that was mined. Ruby is 360 acres, the actual town where the miners lived only a small part of that. One of the things that makes Ruby unique is that a few hundred thousand Mexican free tail bats moved into the abandoned mine. There was grant money available to protect bat colonies and the owners got a grant to fence in all 360 acres. The fence kept the cows out so Ruby became something of a small wilderness area. The vegetation isn't eaten down to the ground, is more lush, so there are more insects and wildlife of all kinds. The National Forest that surrounds Ruby is degraded from over grazing so researchers of Southern Arizona plants, insects, animals etc. like to come to do research on Ruby.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 1:13pm
Try Zuckerbaby, Baghdad Cafe & Arizona Dream - 3 great western adventures starring OceanKat (or maybe someone like him)
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 2:26pm
I only saw Baghad Cafe and Paris, Texas, so thanks for the recommends! Of course, it's in the German still art, too, so I waaay get the meme. Yes, you get what I am talking about, oceankat strikes me too as the real thing of the character that explains it all to the Germans, the enticing exotic wonder and the mystery of the untamed west, highway 66 et. al., funny that, we are the same as the bugs, specimens...
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 2:43pm
P.S. only recently been revisiting the whole Germans and The West thing, always knew about it because of my hometown, Milwaukee, being Munich on Lake Michigan and all. But had no idea how much and how deep and complex the interplay was, going quite a ways back, it's in this book.
Next up for me: the Brits & L.A., what's that all about?
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 2:48pm
Our system was set up by slave owners 250 years ago to placate the slave states. It is way out of date and does not augur well for this nation's future, especially since the Republicans are OK with drowning the principles of democracy in the bathtub to further empower themselves, and enrich the rich.
Do it by any means available, including lying, demonizing the other Party as exemplified by Peter, breaking the country apart by race, religion or ideology, and to thrill the Trump mob of haters, using ICE goons to follow around from hospital to hospital to arrest and take seriously ill post-op 10 year olds into custody in federal prison, against the advice of doctors, a child brought here when she was 3 months old.
by NCD on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 1:23pm
Actually is it not that the intent of the Electoral College that it be an elitist brake against the dangers of populism?
That was of course presuming that populism would occur in the most populated areas! So it's quite ironic how it was used and abused this last time? So much for applying logic to plans for systems. As a matter of fact, it's quite ironic how what defines the word populist has changed, it certainly no longer defines the popular vote. Seems like in this day and age, any system will be "hacked". What still might apply: the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 3:51pm
p.s. As per my last line, I like the original version better: The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men /Gang aft agley,/An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain/For promis'd joy! and I think the whole poem apropos to a lot of current politics. There's always some Trump or another out there plowing up the earth.
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 4:03pm
Hey, I already used that this week ("best laid plans and all..."). Sign o' the Times, eh?
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 5:55pm
by Peter (not verified) on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 7:35pm
by moat on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 9:55pm
Trump revels in his mob at his Adoration Rallies. He fulfills all the characteristics of a demagogue. Aldous Huxley, Brave New World Revisited, 1956:
by NCD on Mon, 10/30/2017 - 12:37am
off thread for ocean-kat, just ran across this: 136 years ago yesterday, this report in the NYTimes:
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 10:20pm
Back to my original point. Pew's new political typology agrees:
from Oct. 24
Political Typology Reveals Deep Fissures on the Right and Left
Conservative Republican groups divided on immigration, ‘openness’
more just posted on the news thread here, a 'splainer by Vox.com
by artappraiser on Sun, 10/29/2017 - 1:58am
When the 2018 election s come around, the only message the Democrats will need is that only a Democratic Congress will impeach Trump.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 3:36pm
Like this?
by barefooted on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 11:07pm
The campaign will help. I think the divisions in the Democratic Party will narrow when it comes down doing nothing to prevent the election of a Republican. Republicans are going to remain in the Trump camp. Flake and Corker are resigning from Congress rather than staying and fighting. Instead of confronting Nazis, Republicans are blaming antifa for violence. Instead of dealing with Russian interference, Republicans are blaming Hillary for whatever. There is no plan to fight Russian influence in upcoming elections. Republicans are incapable of governing. They are also willing to ignore a foreign government interfering in an election to support Trump. I think enough people are reality based that Democrats will maintain an advantage.
We have to remember that 90% of Bernie supporters voted for Hillary in 2016.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 10/28/2017 - 11:25pm
I worry that "Republicans are going to remain in the Trump camp" is true no matter what, and that the more Democrats base their campaigns solely on the idea that he's awful, the more their base will rally around him. We don't just need a better alternative, we need to show why it's better. Then, perhaps, Democrats will show up in force on voting day instead of sitting on the couch chewing their nails and railing against "the government".
Focusing on impeachment and the Russia investigation - along with possible obstruction of justice - just makes his tribe circle their wagons.
by barefooted on Sun, 10/29/2017 - 12:00am
Republicans are traitors. Trump tweets about investigating Hillary, and Devin Nunes opens an investigation on Hillary. Trump is personally interviewing candidates for AG in states where investigations are warranted against Trump himself. These are things that happen in dictatorships. Republicans are willingly following Trump. Republican in Congress cannot go back to their wingnut districts if they vote to impeach Trump.. The only patriotic option now is to vote for Democrats. Democrats have enough whites, blacks, Asians, and Latinos to put a dent in the Republican advantage in Congress.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 10/29/2017 - 10:30am
Ed Gillespie is running a white supremacist campaign for the Senate in Virginia. If Gillespie wins, it will be a green light for Republicans to go full on racist in 2018.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/10/26/trump_praises_confederacy_in_ed_gillespie_tweet.html
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 10/29/2017 - 11:35am
by Peter (not verified) on Sun, 10/29/2017 - 11:39am
Trump is a white supremacist who loves him some Confederate statues. He sent his Chief-of-Staff out to lie about a black Congresswoman. Neither white man has the honor to apologize.
Edit to add:
Apologists for Trump side with Nazis and racists, Trump talks about the beauty of our Confederate flag. He has a commission set up to suppress black votes. Trump assumed John Lewis represented a poverty-stricken neighborhood. He slandered Frederica S. Wilson leading Trump supporters to threaten her life. Trump, trump supporters and Trump apologists are scum.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 10/29/2017 - 2:07pm
Your reference to Alice through the Looking Glass is an apt depiction of the limits of ventriloquism:
Alice's kitty, by the way, is named Snowdrop, not Snowflake.
by moat on Sun, 10/29/2017 - 3:39pm
by Peter (not verified) on Sun, 10/29/2017 - 8:24pm
Your florid polemics about her and this country's politics are interesting to me only because they help me understand how someone with your loyalties thinks and the agitprop language used. But I am curious why you spend time on them here at Dagblog. Because, as she herself has just pointed out, she is not in the White House and therefore cannot be impeached. And no one here is ever convinced by them. Nor do they seem very riled, as a troll would like to see happen. Rather, your arguments are more often ridiculed. Wouldn't your time be better spent encouraging the troops with this type of agitprop? Keeping them busy not paying attention to all the "fake news" like indictments and the like?
by artappraiser on Sun, 10/29/2017 - 9:15pm
by Peter (not verified) on Mon, 10/30/2017 - 11:09am
Read about the guilty plea to colluding with Russia before you gloat.
http://dagblog.com/comment/244403#comment-244403
Edit to add:
Here’s more
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/george-papadopolous-trump-russia-probe_us_59f7354be4b07fdc5fbfa210?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/30/2017 - 12:00pm
We will be referring to Hillary as the real Madame President after the puppet Trump is exposed.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/30/2017 - 12:55pm
AA - I find your contention that Peter should post elsewhere because folks here don't buy his arguments remarkably sad. One major problem we face in America today is an inability/unwillingness to listen to each other and to work to resolve our mutual concerns. While I don't share all of Peter's views, he does raise important questions about our nation's imperialist excesses at the end of the last millennium and in this one. Rather than silence him, doesn't he, like all of us, deserve to be taken seriously? It seems to me, however, that you might prefer living in a silo where only views that are within a certain range are acceptable.
I post here even though many react to my comments with vitriol because I believe it is crucial to dialogue with those who disagree and also because a me-too chorus neither enlightens nor inspires me. I also hope in my most fanciful moments that I might just might reach some people who don't share my views about the harm that the neolibs/neocons in the Democratic party have done and continue to do.
I also hope to learn from those who have very different positions. That's why I'm always asking people with opposing views why. Why do you think this candidate acts in your best interests? What has he done for you? How does forcing American workers to compete against $1/hour labor help us?
Those aren't just rhetorical questions. I assume those with whom I disagree really believe what they believe in good faith and have good reasons for those beliefs. Maybe they're right and I'm wrong. I think we would all benefit - me especially - if we bring a little more humility to our posts and comments and a little more willingness to be wrong.
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 8:15am
Hal
1) I was asking him why he bothers to post here. Not implying he shouldn't.
2) I was a moderator on a similar forum long ago. With that experience, this is what I see: your posts and comments appear as very clearly honest arguments. But his often appear to me to be very like a troll who just visits from time to time to see if he can get a rise out of people, to aggravate, to get fed. Because he uses general ad hominens, name calling, with clear intent to inflame and irritate other people, to be dismissive of other political views, names like snowflakes and red queen. Just my humble opinion and that is also the honest reason why I asked him. Again, I asked, he doesn't have to answer. It is out of simple curiosity of what he would say. I also note he hasn't bothered to register, or if he has, he doesn't bother to sign in. You, on the other hand, post with your brick-and-mortar identity very easy to find, the best bonafides as to honest intent that there can be.
3) None of this has anything to do with his political view. It's about his trollish style of discourse; I would have asked if he had a totally different political view. He purposely and clearly shows high disdain for other commenters here.
by artappraiser on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:38am
AA - I am truly touched that you wrote this about me: "your posts and comments appear to me are very clearly honest arguments." Thank you so much! That comment makes me feel much better about posting here.
Regarding Peter, I understand that his language is more florid than the language I use but folks with whom I disagree strongly here are often just as vehement in their verbiage and there is little pushback against them. For that reason, it seems to me that the criticism of Peter is based more on his opinions, which usually seem to me to be legitimate and provocative as opposed to insane/inane, than his method of expressing them.
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:38am
Your use of the Red Queen and all your other insulting terms has one purpose and one purpose only. To draw attention to yourself by trolling us. You have nothing interesting or valuable to add to the conversation here and would be ignored if you didn't find ways to piss people off. You could use less insulting terminology but that wouldn't suit your purpose, which is to draw attention to yourself by finding ways to piss people off.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 10/29/2017 - 9:17pm
Peter, you are not upsetting anybody. You are merely providing amusement. Most of us don’t have the opportunity to come out and make fun of people who argue in favor of white supremacist Trump. Wingnuts actually got chased out of Tennessee. You are providing comic relief.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 10/29/2017 - 10:35pm
Peter, bayonet story was debunked long ago - her comment preceded [eta: details of] Gaddafi's death. Of course you know that, but it's more fun to proffer false tripe than to deal with known facts. Run along and play now, Yuri and Ivan need a 3rd at tiddlywinks/Russian 9-pin.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 10/30/2017 - 7:53pm
What exactly was debunked? She did say laughingly "we came, we saw, he died" right after Gaddafi was bayoneted in the anus. https://www.pri.org/stories/2011-10-24/gaddafi-sodomized-video-shows-abu...
https://newrepublic.com/article/121879/hillary-clinton-should-take-blame...
by HSG on Mon, 10/30/2017 - 10:46pm
Hillary called back SEALs from saving lives in Benghazi
Hillary sold uranium to Russia
Hillary was responsible for Libya.
What makes these things condescending is that it suggests Obama had no control over anything. It is delusional. It is also a white woman controlling the black President. Hillary is easy to smear. Put the same attack to Obama and the argument appears nuts. Obama controls the SEALs. Obama sold the uranium. Obama attacked Libya. If you replace Hillary with Obama, the attacks fall flat because people don’t see Obama as evil. You may question outcomes, but you don’t assume greed or incompetence.
Hilaary was not the President, but she does make an easier target.
Hal, I believe you lied to me when you suggested out voted for Hillary. You hate her too much to havevoted for her. My defense of your vote was a mistake.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/30/2017 - 11:32pm
Ok, Hal, stop, take a breath, put your thinking cap on, and let's use this example not just as a tidbit to be lost in time, but to perhaps change the way you process junk on the internet.
Your news item is Oct 24, 2011, right? A breakthrough, someone analyzed some video and realized something happened, a *breaking news story*, correct? That it required careful look at the film that wasn't obvious at first glimpse, right? So likely wasn't known earlier, correct?
Now, here's Hillary on CBS *4 DAYS EARLIER*, Oct 20, 2011, saying, "we came, we saw, he died" the day Qaddafi was killed. Watch it. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/clinton-on-qaddafi-we-came-we-saw-he-died/
Occam's Razor, that trust little logic/most plausible reason tool would say that Hillary's reaction was based on just hearing that Qaddafi had been killed that day, and not seeing a video analysis that came out 4 days later, dontcha think? That field video from a remote desert outpost in Libya gets back to Washington slower than a simple verbal report? And no matter how many times you write "anus anus anus", you can't make time run backwards, correct?
So please, does this do anything at all to alter your hardened view on this matter, that her statement "right after" Gaddafi was bayoneted to death reflected her knowing the horrid way he died and still intentionally laughing *at* the horrid way he died?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 2:32am
There was nothing breathless in what I wrote. I did not imply that Hillary's glee was due to her knowledge of the manner in which Gaddafi died. But she was gleeful when she learned of a man's death for which she was as responsible as anybody. There's obviously something wrong there. https://www.democraticunderground.com/10026715175
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 6:34am
Hal, endlessly on the rebound.
=======================
These are just a few of his crimes, while the actual number and details of the full extent of his abuses are much more.
a. Thousands killed while in prison, either as a result of torture, or deliberate mass killing of prisoners due to their Islamic inclinations and opposition to the Gaddafi regime, most famously the massacre at Abu Salim prison in 1996. Mass graves thought to be holding more than 1000 of the victims have been uncovered since the downfall of the Gaddafi regime.
b. Co-operation with the United States and Britain in the torture and rendition of opposition figures, including current prominent figures of the opposition.
c. Public Executions of Civilians in the 1980’s, by way of example –
1 – Omar Ali Debub (teacher and the university students participated in the demonstrations in January 1976): executed by hanging on 6 April 1977 in front of the Socialist Union building in Benghazi
2 – Mohammed Bin Saud Al-Tayeb (teacher and the university students participated in the demonstrations in January 1976): executed by hanging on 6 April 1977 in front of the Socialist Union building in Benghazi
3 – Ahmed Fouad Fathallah (an Egyptian): executed by hanging on 6 April 1977 the port of Benghazi Sea
4 – Saleh Ali al-Zarouk Al-Nawal (teacher): April 1982 was executed in prison
5 – Mohammed Muhatthab Ihfaf (college student) (due to membership of Hizb ut-Tahrir): Hanged on April 7, 1983 in the Faculty of Engineering at the University of Tripoli
6 – Nimr Khaled Khamis (Palestinian teacher) (due to membership of Hizb ut-Tahrir): Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
7 – Nasser Mohammad Sares (Palestinian teacher) – (due to membership of Hizb ut-Tahrir): Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
8 – Ali Ahmed Awadallah (Palestinian teacher) – (due to membership of Hizb ut-Tahrir): Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
9 – Hasan Bader Al Badi (Palestinian teacher) – (due to membership of Hizb ut-Tahrir): Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
11 – Hassan Ahmad al-Kurdi (student) -(due to membership of Hizb ut-Tahrir): April 1984 was executed in prison
12 – Abdullah Abu al-Qasim Msallati (student) – (due to membership of Hizb ut Tahrir): April 1984 executed secretly in prison without trial
13 – Rashid Mansour Kaabar (college student) – it was claimed that he was from the followers of Sheikh Al-Bishti – executed by hanging on 16 April 1984 in Tripoli, Faculty of Pharmacy
14 – Hafidh al-Madani (college student): executed by hanging on 16 April 1984 at the Faculty of Agriculture
15 – Mustafa al-Nouweiri: executed by hanging on 21 April 1984 at the University of Benghazi
d. Assassinations carried out abroad in the 1980’s, by way of example:
1 – Mohamed Mustafa Ramadan (radio reporter, apparently due to his membership of Hizb ut Tahrir): 11 April 1980 he was assassinated outside the mosque after Friday prayers in London
2 – Mahmoud Abdel-Salam Nafi (lawyer): 21 April 1980, was assassinated in Britain
3 – Arif Abdul Jalil (businessman): 19 April 1980, was assassinated in Rome
4 – Abdul Latif alMuntasir (businessman): 21 April 1980, was assassinated in Beirut
5 – Gabriel Abdel Razek al-Dinaly (a police officer and a popular poet): 6 April 1985, was assassinated in Bonn, Germany
17 Crimes committed by Gaddafi against Libyan people
A Point of View, Libya, Middle East & North Africa, Politics | Sandra | March 23, 2011 at 09:42
@LibyaNewMedia tweeted the following list of 17 crimes committed by Gaddafi against the Libyan people since February 17, the start of the Free Libya Revolution. These are only the recent ones. The list of crimes he and his family have committed against the Libyan people during his 42 year reign would go on forever. It will certainly be a long time before the memories die.
#Gaddaficrimes
1- Shooting at unarmed protestors
2- Burning houses of people in Tripoli who called Al Jazeera
3- Looting houses of people suspected to have protested against Gaddafi
4- Torturing kidnapped people to death
5- Shutting off water, electricity and communication to cities
6- Indiscriminate shelling of cities with BM21 grad rockets & tanks
7- Attacking ambulances & hospitals and killing injured
8- Using ambulances to move forces & attack on protestors
9- Kill doctors for treating injured people after hospitals were closed for people
10- Using State TV to encourage violence.
11- Attacking & destroying mosques
12- Using sleeper cells in Benghazi to randomly shoot at civilians to create chaos
13- Forcing migrant workers to join mercenary training camps
14- Stealing all money, phones & other stuff of refuges
15- Attacking livestock near attacked cities
16- Destroying graves of dead protestors, taking away bodies to unknown place
17- Bringing in people to dance with Gaddafi pictures in massacred cities.
===========================
Thousands of documents that reveal in chilling detail orders from Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's senior generals to bombard and starve the people of Misrata have been gathered by war crimes investigators and are being kept at a secret location at the besieged Libyan port.
The documents, some of which the Observer has seen, will form damning evidence in any future war crimes trial of the Libyan leader at the International Criminal Court. The court's prosecutors are expected to travel to the city to view the documents once the daily bombardments have ceased.
One document shows the commanding general of government forces instructing his units to starve Misrata's population during the four-month siege. The order, from Youssef Ahmed Basheer Abu Hajar, states bluntly: "It is absolutely forbidden for supply cars, fuel and other services to enter the city of Misrata from all gates and checkpoints." Another document instructs army units to hunt down wounded rebel fighters, in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions.
Plans to bombard the city are also in the archive, say investigators, who also claim they have a message from Gaddafi relayed to the troops ordering that Misrata be obliterated and the "blue sea turned red" with the blood of the inhabitants....
===================================
Ousted Libyan dictator Muammar Gadhafi kidnapped and raped hundreds of teenagers in specially built sex dungeons, according to a television documentary to be screened by the BBC next week.
The program, "Storyville: Mad Dog – Gadhafi's Secret World," will be broadcast in the UK on February 3. Previews of the documentary were carried in the British media on Sunday.
Victims and witnesses state in the documentary that Gadhafi would choose his targets on visits to schools or colleges, patting on the head those who caught his eye.
His security officials would then take the victim to one of several specially designed suites of rooms, where they would be abused and raped by the dictator. In one such suite at Tripoli University, there is a fully-equipped gynecological examination room, where victims were tested for sexually transmitted diseases before being sexually abused.
"Some were only 14," recalled one teacher at a Tripoli school. "They would simply take the girl they wanted. They had no conscience, no morals, not an iota of mercy, even though she was a mere child."
Some of the girls were held for years, while others were dumped with appalling injuries.
read more.....
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 7:26am
PP -first of all, can you finally 86 the sarcasm? Given your manifold errors here, it's remarkably obtuse. In this thread, you wrote: "Peter, bayonet story was debunked long ago - her comment preceded Gaddafi's death." Did Hillary really say "we came, we saw, he died" before Gaddafi died.
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 7:48am
Oh, I didn't think you were stupid enough to fret over the death of a mass torturer/murderer on its own - mea culpa. you've taught me something - my Overton Window widens.
Would you be upset about laughing over Pol Pot's death? Idi Amin? Papa/Baby Doc? Son of Sam? Ted Bundy? John Wayne Gacy?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:24am
I didn't fret over Gaddafi's death.That is a straw argument. I do believe, however, that it's better to take wanted people alive whenever possible. I was disappointed that the Navy Seals didn't take Osama into custody and said so at the time. My point here is that Clinton's giggling was clearly inappropriate and evinces something wrong with her. Okay, now I responded to your point. Please respond to mine.
Here it is again: In this thread, you wrote: "Peter, bayonet story was debunked long ago - her comment preceded Gaddafi's death." So [PP], did Hillary really say "we came, we saw, he died" before Gaddafi died.
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:33am
HSG, I gotta say that I agree in general with you on this topic and 100% percent with the statement in the link you supplied. Furthermore, Hillary's response was not spontaneous. Like any practiced politician being interviewed, she had anticipated questions she would be asked and had prepared a response, in this case a contrived attempt to make it a joke. She had had time to think about her response. In my opinion the time lapse between the murder and the interview makes her gleeful response that much more sickening even if Gaddafi's death had been a justifiable result of a justifiable military action. If a juror was part of convicting a brutal murderer to the electric chair I would have the same disgusted reaction to that juror if I heard them respond like that to his execution.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 7:27am
Thanks Lulu. It's always nice getting some support when I'm playing Prometheus. I'd love to see more of your commentary here. Regarding Gaddafi's death, I don't say Clinton knew he'd been impaled with a sword when she cackled gleefully that he had been killed. In fact, the timeline suggests she didn't know that. But she did pressure Obama into a hot war with Libya - to be fair, he should have resisted her indiotic blandishments - and she did cackle with delight when learning of his death. There's obviously something wrong with her.
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 7:52am
It is amazing to me that whites on the Right and the Left treat President Obama as a cypher who was convinced to take an action by some white person. Obama made the decision, full stop. Attacking Hillary is easier than attacking Obama. You may find it shocking but very few people lost sleep because Saddam was hung or Gaddafi was bayoneted. Idi Amin got out of town before he suffered the same fate.
There is a world of difference between not having remorse when a brutal dictator dies and actually disemboweling the dictator.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 8:12am
I blame Obama too. He made a very bad decision when he took Clinton's advice. Actually, he made a very bad decision when he appointed her to be Secretary of State. That said, Clinton was not a potted plant. She, as Secretary of State, had a great deal of power and was obviously a valuable member of the Cabinet. She called for ongoing bombing attacks on Gaddafi long after any threat to Benghazi had been eliminated. Do you believe Hillary bears no responsibility for what happened in Libya?
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 8:19am
Hal, you again say that Obama took Hillary’s advice. Obama made his own decision. Your default position is Hillary.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 8:53am
This has nothing to do with my "default position." Obama did take Clinton's advice.
The following quotes are from a February 2016 New York Times article:
1) "As the secretary of state in 2011, Hillary Clinton pressed the Obama administration to intervene militarily in Libya, with consequences that have gone far beyond the fall of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi."
2) Hillary "pressed for a secret American program that supplied arms to rebel militias, an effort never before confirmed."
3) Hillary's "conviction would be critical in persuading Mr. Obama to join allies in bombing Colonel Qaddafi’s forces. In fact, Mr. Obama’s defense secretary, Robert M. Gates, would later say that in a “51-49” decision, it was Mrs. Clinton’s support that put the ambivalent president over the line."
Again, do you believe Hillary Clinton deserves some blame for the Libya disaster?
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:00am
Did you vote for Hillary?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:09am
RMRD - what an incredible distraction you are trying to pull here. You wrote several posts attacking me for allegedly dissing Obama by suggesting that Hillary's advice to bomb Libya was a major factor in Obama's decision to do just that. When I supplied a quote from Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who said exactly what I said, rather than acknowledge my point, you are now trying to make this about my vote last year. Why not just answer the question I posed? Again, do you believe Hillary bears some responsibility for the Libya debacle?
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:17am
Obama was President. The buck stops with him.
Did you vote for Hillary like you said you did?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:22am
First, I have never stated publicly for whom I voted in the general election last year and I will not do so here. Second, help me understand how you can believe that the Secretary of State isn't somewhat responsible for a terrible policy that she urged on the President and that, according to the Defense Secretary who was there, swayed him?
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:27am
Did you order code red ? ;-)
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:31am
RMRD - One thing about Hal is that he lacks a spine. When the murder happened Hal was on the opposite side of where he stands now. He was celebratory and gleeful about Q's death on his show. Naturally times change and hindsight is 20/20. Although I would never give Hal the credit of having hindsight, insight, sight, or the ability to see his on nose on his face.
Of course his idol Bernie, you know the one who writes about sexually assaulting teenaged female minors, Ol Bern was against the murder so of course Hal is against the murder now in the 2016-2017 era. Hal, do you still believe Bernie will have a shot in 2020 after the revelations of his writings are vetted and verified and he is exposed as an old pervert lusting after the flesh of young teenaged girls? Bernie better wake up, he won't just be running from Jane's alleged thievery of college students, while Bernie allegedly sets up meetings in his Senate office using his influence with bankers twisting arms for loans for land to grift students of their futures. Sounds Trump University-esque. As I recall Jane never did release those taxes and now Bernie lives large, like a Vermont King. Three homes, a fleet of vehicles, and a bunch of nubile teenagers just hoping and wishing to become Senator Granpa Perv's latest sycophant. Luckily for them, Hal already owns a pair of knee pads. See Trump.
Here is a tweet from Hal Ginsberg's account.
https://mobile.twitter.com/HalGinsberg/status/917365642256318466?ref_src...
by How Dare U (not verified) on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 10:35am
And you jumped in on my response to Peter where he said "especially when she glowed with joy and high-fived an associate at the news of the bayonet rape and murder of Gaddafi", and then you changed the argument and proclaimed haughtily you never said what Peter just said. Great style of arguing, dude.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:36am
PP - You very clearly wrote that Hillary's joyful reaction at the killing of Gaddafi occurred before Gaddafi was killed. Is that true or not?
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:45am
Fixed the mistake - before *details* of his death known.
Peter said she was laughing at a saber enema. I pointed out this was long debunked. You had to get in the middle to sob that any laughing at a person's death was horrid and inhumane. Get a life.
And as a reminder, I was overall against intervention just because Qaddafi was useful post-9/11, but Hillary's and The Atlantics' analyses were compelling.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 10:00am
by Peter (not verified) on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 3:27pm
Trump expressed joy about police abuse
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/donald-trump-is-serious-when-he-jokes-about-police-brutality
Trump suggested gun owners could shoot Hillary
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/10/us/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton.html?_r=0
Edited to correct police abuse link
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 4:15pm
Thank you. So much bullshit, so little time.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 4:03pm
"Hillary's bad. Trump's worse." Perhaps she would have won the election if her campaign and the Dem establishment had embraced this slogan. At least, they wouldn't have been treating voters like idiots.
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 4:09pm
The Democratic Party’s problem is white voters. They still love them some Trump. Trump’s popularity among whites is because we don’t see mass deportations. Whites disaffected with Trump are not coming to the Democratic Party. They want Roy Moore.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/10/29/trump_s_approval_rating_hits_new_low_as_he_loses_support_among_whites_without.html
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 4:23pm
barefoot,
As the indictments begin, I worry about the extreme polarization too.
And if any circumstance is going to teach us about the limits of negation, it is one where the ideas being contested are themselves merely bones of contention.
by moat on Mon, 10/30/2017 - 6:50pm
Hal, here is a detailed article from Rolling Stone. Hillary initially was on Gates’ side in not intervening. She changed her view. Powers and Rice also supported intervention.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/inside-obamas-war-room-20111013
Obama made the final decision. Obama bears the responsibility for Libya. Obama defended his decision publically. You focus on the person who didn’t make the final decision.
https://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/28/obama-defends-limited-role-in-libya/
Regarding the vote, you stayed mute and thanked me for telling a guest at Dagblog that you voted for Hillary
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:49am
All them damn wimmen forced his hand - Obama didn't stand a chance with all that unhinged estrogen let loose. Even the leader of the free world can't fight back *every* danger.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:52am
The degree of Hillary hatred is amazing. The Republican Congress cares more about attacking Hillary with a bogus investigation than they do about taking measures to insure that state elections are not vulnerable to attack from Russia or other entities. This is pathologic and dangerous. Some on the Left are just as delusional.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 10:13am
In any case, good cross-examination, counselor.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 10:16am
We agree RMRD. Right-wing control over our nation is extremely dangerous and harms millions of us directly and all of us indirectly. We need to work together to take the country back from the brink of utter ruin if that's even possible. Nominating mercenary Machiavellian-style neolib/neocons who backed numerous disastrous overseas military adventures and middle-class job-destroying trade deals is probably not a good way to do this wouldn't you say?
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 11:18am
Hal, we as in you and me can’t work together. I can’t trust you.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 11:20am
I'm very sorry to hear that although that wasn't my question. My question was whether we can agree that nominating neocon/neolibs who backed disastrous military interventions and job-destroying trade deals is a road we don't want to go down.
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 12:17pm
I’ll go down any road you aren’t going down, Hal. There will be no reunification with neolibs like you. You and your kind have proven to be untrustworthy, traitors to the party. If you wanted to unite you should’ve voted for Hilary. Now go off with Bernie and be independent losers. Bye boy.
by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 4:41pm
by Peter (not verified) on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 4:45pm
I don't say you're wrong Peter. But I don't see any viable solutions besides trying to get Democratic voters to move the party to the left. Do you think a progressive third party could supplant the Democrats? Maybe. But obviously even Bernie doesn't since he hasn't started or moved to one and I don't think there's another politician with sufficient gravitas to do this. Do you have any proposals?
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 6:40pm
by Peter (not verified) on Wed, 11/01/2017 - 12:46pm
Oh yeah, because killing TPP really stopped American foreign trade. Alright, enough silliness.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 11/01/2017 - 1:42pm
HSG, I would think twice before getting into Peter's van.
Whatever agreement you might find with his critique of the status quo, Peter is busy painting Trump in colors that dismiss outrage at his thuggish behavior as a symptom of a compulsion to support Hillary Clinton no matter what happens to who. Peter's board game doesn't permit any other moves.
As much as you despise Hillary Clinton, I trust that you don't think that the disgust people feel when listening to Trump has anything to do with her.
by moat on Wed, 11/01/2017 - 7:15pm
by Peter (not verified) on Wed, 11/01/2017 - 8:22pm
It still remains that your guy is a white supremacist.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 11/01/2017 - 8:27pm
Says the master of Newspeak, our own mad hatter. Oh yrs, Trump the "straight talker" - where I come from we call it bald-faced lying, and the prosecutors seemingly agree.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 11/01/2017 - 8:28pm
I don't understand the "sleazy innuendo" part of your comment. Did I not accurately describe your view of what criticism of Trump's is really about?
You even repeat the message in case anybody wasn't clear on your meaning.
by moat on Wed, 11/01/2017 - 8:54pm
We disagree on Trump v. Clinton Peter. As bad as she is, he is worse. Yes, it's good we're not in the TPP but the deal had been justly vilified by Election Day to the point that I doubt she would have signed off on it if (a) she had won and (b) it had somehow gotten through Congress.
Withdrawing from Paris was absolutely the wrong thing to do. Yes the Democrats haven't been great on AGW but we need to be working internationally on solutions not sticking our heads in the sand.
All that said, I appreciate your willingness to challenge the Democratic-establishment collective wisdom. That takes guts and has real value. I also thank you for pointing out that I'm not the one being taken for a ride. Indeed, poor, struggling, working-class, and middle-class Americans who reflexively vote for neolib Dems like Hillary Clinton in primaries, as opposed to populist progressives like Bernie, are tragically the ones being fleeced.
by HSG on Wed, 11/01/2017 - 9:28pm
by Peter (not verified) on Wed, 11/01/2017 - 11:55pm
IPCC :
Global sea level rose by about 120 m during the several millennia that followed the end of the last ice age (approximately 21,000 years ago), and stabilised between 3,000 and 2,000 years ago. Sea level indicators suggest that global sea level did not change significantly from then until the late 19th century. The instrumental record of modern sea level change shows evidence for onset of sea level rise during the 19th century. Estimates for the 20th century show that global average sea level rose at a rate of about 1.7 mm yr–1.
Satellite observations available since the early 1990s provide more accurate sea level data with nearly global coverage. This decade-long satellite altimetry data set shows that since 1993, sea level has been rising at a rate of around 3 mm yr–1, significantly higher than the average during the previous half century.
by NCD on Thu, 11/02/2017 - 12:17am
by Peter (not verified) on Thu, 11/02/2017 - 11:03am
I focus on both Clinton and Obama. Is it your position that Clinton isn't responsible for the advice she gave?
by HSG on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 9:59am
She gave advice based on being one of several advisors.
Obama was the decider. Different roles.
Lincoln seemed to make sure people with different opinions were advising him, so he wouldn't be misguided by too much consensus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_of_Rivals
But the subtlety of this approach is probably lost when just looking to blame someone a bit more.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 10:14am
You focus on Hillary. Obama is an afterthought..
You allowed me to lie about your vote.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 10:16am
You'll be more careful next time, I suspect...
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 10:17am
Hal said more than once that he would vote for the Dem candidate. You made the mistake of taking him at his word. That's not lying (on your part, anyway)
by CVille Dem on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 10:38am
Given the tone of his posts about Hillary, I should not have supported him. I learned a lesson.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 11:00am