Danny Cardwell's picture

    Kobe Bryant: He Touched Every Line

    I sat down to write about Kobe's life and contributions to the game, but a blank piece of paper kept staring back at me. I struggled to find the words to express the shock I felt. Watching the crowd in New Orleans pay respect to Kobe was emotional. Seeing the tears in the eyes of Celtics players was tough. I felt a sense of pride after seeing teams take 24 second shot clock violations. Trae Young's inspired 45-point performance while wearing the number 8 made me a fan of his for life. Those images are worth more than any words I could ever write.

    Sports fans are hurting. We share a love for the game that non-sports fans may never understand. Sports are a huge part of our lives. I love all sports, but basketball was my first love. I learned to respect and admire the grace, strength, hard work, and passion it took to excel at the highest levels. Kobe did the work. His tenacity was legendary. In a league full of Alphas, he was a boss.

    The game is better because he played it. The game is better because he had the courage to openly chase Jordan. There’s a generation of players who are better because of Kobe’s work ethic and sheer will to win.

    I came of age during the Renaissance of Basketball. I saw Magic, Bird and Jordan in their primes. I saw Kareem and Dr. J at the end of their careers. I remember Olajuwon, Ewing and Shaq dominating games in their own way. I watched Iverson cross up Jordan. I enjoyed seeing Kobe and Michael go after each other. These battles will live on forever.

    Every generation has its stars. Every generation debates the greatness of their era. This cycle makes the game we love better. Kobe cemented his place among the pantheon of basketball Gods. What he left us is on film.

    The debate over who's the greatest is as disrespectful as it is futile. Every great dared to be great. Every legend spent thousands of hours chasing the legend(s) who came before them. They all touched every line. They might have employed a number of “veteran tactics”, but they never cheated the game. They all started out as kids with a dream. Sports fans care so much because we watched him for the better part of 25 years. We remember hearing about this high school phenom. We watched him grow up.

    Sports are more than little kids pretending to be their heroes and old men vicariously living through young men. Almost 40 years after going to my first basketball game with my dad we still watch and attend games together. We are shareholders in a tradition worth passing down. A.I., Kobe, D. Wade and Lebron begat K.D. Steph, Kawhi and Giannis. Debating who is the “G.O.A.T.” kills time, but it doesn’t matter. They are all great. All of them are mourning the loss of someone who earned their respect.

    Topics: 

    Comments

    Thanks for this

    I noted in a blurb that I felt that I was mourning the loss of a family member when I heard about Kobe

    Then I heard about his youngest daughter. 

    The NYT did an article on the 9 lives lost.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/us/who-died-helicopter-crash-kobe-altobelli-chester-zobayan-mauser.html


    I realized with these few lines that a major part of your talent at writing is that you are always thinking of a big mixed audience:

    Sports fans are hurting. We share a love for the game that non-sports fans may never understand. Sports are a huge part of our lives. 

    Nice. In being a great explainer, a uniter, not a divider.


    Yeah, what ever. The odds are high that Kobe did touch every line. Even the line between consensual touching and rape. For accuracy's sake you should change your image on your blog to this.

    Sports fans are hurting. We share a love for the game that non-sports fans may never understand. Sports are a huge part of our lives. 

    Sports is such a big part of your lives that you will ignore rape.

    eta: The more I think about this the angrier I get. I have my heroes too. People who I admire as much as you do your sports heroes. People who are just as an important part of my life. If John McLaughlin or Chick Corea or John Coltrane were credibly, more, convincingly accused of rape I wouldn't write a glowing obituary about his influence on music and on my life without mentioning it. This says more about you and me and all the others weighing in on this than it does about Kobe. This is a stain on your character that I will remember for as long as you post here.


    You are allowed to feel anyway you choose. You have been one of the more negative and confrontational people on this site. You would have found fault in anything. Maybe you should focus on finding the root cause of your anger?

    What happened in Colorado was adjudicated. I don't know what happened. You don't know what happened. What we know is that nothing like that happened before or after. You can stain my character anyway you like. I've survived things weak people like you commit suicide over. I'm not here for your approval or acceptance. 

     

    PEACE!


    You have no idea what I've survived. Your insult just shows your ignorance. But I make my judgment on what you posted. It's based on your own words and the position you advocate. 

    Before I extolled the virtues of a person I'd know as much as possible of the facts and information. We can all form an opinion based on the information. You either know but choose to ignore that information because he's your hero or you choose to not even look at it because he's your hero. If some nobody in your home town raped a friend or acquaintance you wouldn't ignore it so blithely. 

    Or maybe you would. Maybe that's just the type of man you are.


    Chill. Two of the 12 apostles were sinners, one an accessory to murder.  They became saints nevertheless.  Cut the holier than thou crap.

    Kobe settled a rape accusation out of court, it never went to trial. He was 25. He has been an advocate for women's sports and basketball, and treated them as professional equals.

    The outpouring of admiration for him and sympathy for his family from around the world show that his impact and example of how to compete and lead one's life was something that inspired millions.


    All it shows is that most people don't care if men rape women. That's why the vast majority of rapists, even rapists that aren't famous, get away with it.


    Alright, let's chill a bit. We both noted the rape, we both know our society's weird about stuff like this, including our current president & the indifference to Weinstein's trial, we know at time of death for Reagan and McCain and Scalia and whoever it becomes a sad lovefest with little said about any negatives. Let them have their moment. Sending in drones to funerals is unseemly.

    [but yeah, that $3 million for a ring to make up to his wife coulda been given to a lot needier causes. Just sayin'.]


    A WaPo reporter who canceled Kobe got a different perspective from Jewell Loyd, a WNBA player who viewed Kobe as a mentor.

    Like many others, I have struggled over the past few days with how to think about the life and tragic death of Kobe Bryant. Personally, I considered Bryant to be “canceled” after a 19-year-old woman accused him of rape in 2003; in other words, despite Bryant’s celebrated basketball career and his other good works, I could not ignore the allegations and accept his apology. Yet, as news of his death spread, my feelings toward Bryant were hard to reconcile with the outpouring of grief from the larger public. I wanted to better understand who he was as a person, on and off the court, and how to assess his character and legacy. 

    On Tuesday morning, I spoke with Jewell Loyd, a guard for the Seattle Storm, who considered Bryant to be a mentor. She described their relationship, his role as a father and the impact of his death. Below is a transcript of our conversation, which has been edited and condensed for clarity.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/28/qa-jewell-loyd-discusses-kobe-bryants-role-father-impact-his-death/


    I can kind of relate - I once parked illegally without putting money in the meter and shoplifted a record. And I think I'm nicer to my family because of it - at least I give the kids allowance and help my wife do dishes.

    Mumford: Given the sexual assault allegations against him early in his career, how do you put that in context with his career and your relationship with him? How have you grappled with that?

    Loyd: Me being a Christian, I have a very clear understanding that everyone in the world is imperfect and we’re all sinners. That doesn’t change who people are. I know the love that he had for Vanessa. That’s remarkable, and that’s why their bond was so strong.

    I’m never in a place of judging people. Everyone has done something that they’re not proud of. But I think the way that he taught his daughters how to love was way more powerful than anything he did in his life. I think that it’s powerful that he was able to look at his life and change, and then also give a different kind of love to his girls.


    Neil deGrasse Tyson was accused of rape. He had two investigations. He keeps his job positions 

    Neil deGrasse Tyson will keep his high-profile job as the director of the American Museum of Natural History's Hayden Planetarium after an investigation into sexual misconduct allegations against him.

    “The museum’s investigation into allegations concerning Neil deGrasse Tyson is complete,” a museum spokeswoman told the New York Times. “Based on the results of the investigation, Dr. Tyson remains an employee and director of the Hayden Planetarium. Because this is a confidential personnel matter, there will be no further statements by the museum.”

    The museum, Tyson, and his representatives didn't return requests for comment.

    This is the end of a second investigation into Tyson — earlier this year, Fox Broadcasting and National Geographic said that the astrophysicist's two shows, Star Talk and Cosmos, would continue after an inquiry.

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tomnamako/neil-degrasse-tyson-sexual-misconduct-investigation

    Virginia Lt. Governor Justin Fairfax is planning on running for Governor despite two accusations of rape. Fairfax is suing CBS for airing an interview with one of his accusers. He says there was an eyewitness to the sexual encounter with one of the women.

    https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/virginia-lt-gov-sues-cbs-for-airing-sexual-assault-accusations/2183691/


    What type of record can be shoplifted?


    Tyson is not Bryant. Bryant was charged, plus settled a civil suit.

    Bryant initially told investigators that he did not have sexual intercourse with his accuser, a 19-year-old woman who worked at the hotel where Bryant was staying. When the officers told Bryant that she had taken an exam that yielded physical evidence, such as semen, Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual.[2] When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. 

    Not very progressive to try to "but others were accused too!" wipe it all away. A bit like the Trump defense - "but Joe & Hunter Biden! But Hillary! and her emails!"

    And yes, back in the day, enterprising teens could shoplift 10" records, especially wearing a suit and someone distracting. But not a nice thing to do. No excuses on that score, except young and not too thoughtful towards others.


    I'm not sure what your point is in bringing up Tyson. We could discuss the relative merits of the two cases. The allegations against Tyson were about a rape nearly 40 years ago. It's impossible to gather any physical evidence after 40 years. The allegations against Kobe were made immediately. A rape kit was done and other evidence was collected.  According to police reports there were numerous lacerations and bruises on the victim. There is clear evidence that at least a violent sex act occurred.

    One would have to be willfully ignorant like Cardwell clearly is to not see that and morally deficient to not care.


    The rape case was settled out of court. There is a non-disclosure agreement. Kobe was never convicted of rape. You can yell about the injustice, but it changes nothing. Insulting Cardwell makes you feel superior, but does nothing of importance.

    A snippet about the 2018 Oscars

    Yet in 2018, just seven months after he won an Academy Award for best animated short film, Bryant was dropped from the jury of a film festival.

    “This is an urgent time to say NO to toxic and violent behavior against women,” read a petition urging organizers of the Animation Is Film Festival to disassociate themselves from Bryant.

    ......And at those 2018 Oscars? Hours after Frances McDormand, winner of the Best Actress award, gave a powerful speech about the need to include more women in the film business, she was hobnobbing with Bryant at a post-show party.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/sports/basketball/kobe-bryant-rape-case.html


    Now that Kobe is dead, other women, if any, who were assaulted by Kobe can come forward. If a pattern of serial rapes by Kobe emerges, the opinion pendulum will swing. Until then, Kobe is headed for the HOF and there will be documentaries honoring his legacy. The only thing that will make a change is a Cosby-like drip, drip, drip, of accusations. The predatory nature seems to be that there is more than one survivor.

    Tyson maintains his job. Fairfax is running for Governor. 

    If there are other victims of sexual assault out there, they are the only ones who can find justice for the woman in Colorado. 


     but does nothing of importance.

    What an ass you are. There is nothing here that does anything of importance. Least of all your posts. Or why don't you just explain how what you do here is so fucking important as compared to the nothing of importance that I do.

    The next time a cop is acquitted of killing a black man you should make these same arguments. He was found not guilty. "You can yell about the injustice, but it changes nothing." But you won't because you're just as much a sycophant for Kobe as Cardwell.


    My posts here make no difference in the real world, just like your posts have no impact. We voice opinions.

    The work against police abuse is not simply online activity, it requires voting in new DAs for example.

    Ranting about Kobe changes nothing, the only way the view of Kobe by most people will only change is if other survivors of attacks come forward. I've heard more commentary about the loss of his daughter than the rape allegation.

    The other way change would come if the assault survivor is no longer bound by the non-disclosure act because of Kobe's death, and she now wants to speak about it publicly. It is possible since her name was made public that some news media person tries to track her down and extracts her feelings.

    It could be that this was a tragic accident. To a fire and brimstone Christian, this may represent spiritual justice.


    My posts here make no difference in the real world, just like your posts have no impact. We voice opinions.

    Then what was your point in bringing it up? The only reason I can think of is to divert the conversation by attacking me.

    The work against police abuse is not simply online activity,

    I didn't address how to work against police abuse. I merely pointed out your hypocrisy in using arguments to defend Kobe that you wouldn't use to defend a cop or Trump. You're changing the subject to avoid addressing your hypocrisy.

    Ranting about Kobe 

    I didn't rant about Kobe. I made clear and concise arguments to explain my views that you mostly ignored.  If anyone was ranting it was Cardwell with his long sycophantic post. You need to look up rant in the dictionary as you clearly don't understand the definition.

    Change begins when people are willing to bring issues that many shy away from talking about into the light of day so they are seen. This site is too small for that to be effective here but starting the debate is how we start making change

     


    I didn't read your ranting crap because it means nothing.

    The first thing that comes to mind when I hear or see Kobe is thoughts of the great things he did. I thing of Gigi's potential. I don't care if that makes me a bad person in your view, I really don't care. I see an outpouring of emotion expressed in the United States and around the world. Kobe did great things. The statement by his wife was moving.

    When I think of Bill Cosby, I envision a scumbag racist. When I think of R Kelly, I have the same thoughts. When I think about Kobe, I have much different image. The more I think about Cardwell's post and the more I think about your immediate reaction to it and your challenging his intelligence, the more I feel sorry for you.

    I was traveling yesterday, turned on ESPN today and heard more sadness expressed about Kobe's death.


    Please do not refer to non-rants as "rants" - it just stirs things up and adds ad hominems to the discussion.
    Thanks, PP (admin hat)


    Where was your hat when "ignorance" was used to describe a person who posted?


    Carefully ignoring that "person who posted" wrote a rather incendiary "I've survived things weak people like you commit suicide over."

    So chill with the tilted playing field & "rant" accusations and get back to your wake, and I'll take care of site matters.


    "This is a stain on your character that I will remember for as long as you post here."

    Just sayin'


    You know, I'm not a Pollyanna, but "he only raped 1 girl, it's not like another came forward" is a wonderful defense to a supposed hero. Yeah, you're making sure we remember. Thanks.


    Yes, I have clearly stated my feelings about Kobe 

    You completely avoided addressing the post that justified Cardwell's response.


    See below.

     


    I didn't read your ranting crap 

    I don't believe you. You can't come up with rational arguments to defend your opinions nor rational arguments to challenge mine so you lie that you didn't read it and insult me to cover for that lack. It's a common conservative tactic to discredit democrats and liberals. This diversion tactic is millenia years old. Aesop illustrated it with his story of the fox and the sour grapes.

     I don't care if that makes me a bad person in your view, I really don't care.

    What's your point? No one here cares what other people think of them. Do you think NCD is sitting at home at night worrying that I might not like him? Or that Arta is upset over the possibility that NCD might think she's not a good person? Or is PP worried that Arta doesn't admire him? What is your point?

     I see an outpouring of emotion expressed in the United States and around the world. 

    I don't care about what is popular. Popular opinion is often wrong. All I care about is rational arguments defending your opinions and rational arguments challenging mine. You don't care about popular opinion either. When it agrees with your opinion you will cite it as if it's some sort of evidence proving truth. When popular opinion disagrees with your opinion you will disagree with it, as I have done here.

    When I think of Bill Cosby, I envision a scumbag

    Yet it's unlikely you thought that when only one woman had accused him of rape. The physical evidence that Kobe is a rapist is far greater than any one woman who accused Cosby. All I can take away from your statement is that no amount of evidence matters to you. You will only be convinced a rape occurred if the rapist rapes many different women. Or you don't care if a man rapes one woman. You only care about serial rapists.

    your challenging his intelligence,

    I never challenged his intelligence. I claimed he either know the information and chose to ignore it out of hero worship or he deliberately avoided getting the information our of hero worship. My opinion is that prioritizing hero worship over a honest search for the truth is morally deficient. All moral philosophers and ethicists would agree with me. But again, you don't care about what's popular unless the popular agrees with you. Even Christian ethicists would agree that prioritizing hero worship over a search for truth is morally deficient.

    the more I feel sorry for you

    I don't care what you feel. All I care about in the conversations we have here is your rational arguments defending your opinions and your rational arguments challenging mine. The main, perhaps the only difficulty I have with you is that you are unwilling or unable to make those rational arguments and the means you use to avoid a real  disscussion of the topic and issues


    [if you can't bother to read, don't comment - PP]


    Serial behavior is not required to be condemned - certainly 1 rape is enough.
    Bryant denied intercourse, then admitted it, but said it was "consensual".
    The bruises on the woman's neck and elsewhere don't sound consensual, but we won't quite ever know. She in the end decided not to testify, but that certainly doesn't mean she lied at first.
    As OceanKat noted, this was reported in real time, and police got real evidence.
    There are a dozen vaguely similar cases that are not actually similar - this is not "he said, she said" - it's "he said, but she & the evidence said".

    I really didn't want to dwell on this, but I also don't want it glossed over or splained/hand-waved away.
    I see people like some Catholic preacher saying, "Bryant built his redemption", or something like that. I don't see it. Lots of people are nice to their wife & kids & friends, but shitty to others. I don't see any great act of Bryant's that would counterbalance an actual rape and strangling, but I don't know that much about him. Maybe he atoned. Maybe it really was consensual, but I certainly have my doubts, and doubt anything new will come alogn to change that.
    Polanski is still hounded about drugging & raping a 13-year-old, and while I question the politics of US justice system, I'm not sympathetic - also in light of more recent accusations. I don't have an easy solution for #MeToo,
    but it's here and not going away.

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/jan/29/outrage-as-polanski-film-no...


    Frances McDormand absolves Kobe Bryant by "hobnobbing with him".
    She should charge - quite powerful abilities those. Pope Frances II?
    Seriously, that's not how it works.


    Kobe's body identified by fingerprints 
    Daughter Gianna has not yet been identified.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/kobe-bryant-death-helicopter-crash-body-fingerprints-nba-victims-a9307226.html


    in noting the worldwide nature of the response, the following reminded me of how when Michael Jackson died, a similarly heated argument broke out on TPMCafe, where several felt very strongly that something was wrong with the world to idolize a pedophile:

    It is what it is.

     


    Yeah, even with Jackson I don't quite have a solution,
    but I do recognize it as a problem.



    FAA failure cost lives.

    "The NTSB in 2006 called on the Federal Aviation Administration to require all US-registered helicopters that carry at least six people to be equipped with the system, but Homendy said the agency "failed to act."

    The Sikorsky S-76 helicopter was rolled out before the FAA required the system on new aircraft, according to The Wall Street Journal, which added that retrofitting helicopters to add the system cost an estimated $25,000 to $40,000."

    A Sikorsky 76 goes for $13 million. The terrain awareness system including installation, would amount to less than 0.2% of the helicopter cost. Why would a helicopter company operating in the maze of hills around LA not invest in one? It's why government regulation is necessary and can save lives.

    Terrain avoidance display, Honeywell, 20 year old technology. Database of terrain matched to GPS chopper location. Red is can't clear with current flight profile (speed, current climb or descend rate or if hold altitude):


    For rmrd: Oceankat's pissed, and for good reason. A guy strangled a woman during sex, denied it, and eventually had to admit they had violent sex at least. She reported rape to police real-time, which isn't that common and often tough for the woman, and they found physical evidence to back her up. Meantime the woman was intimidated into not testifying, with lawyers examing her and ready to talk about her being a slut, having a 2nd partner, etc. In a civil payout, he was obliged to accept that she didn't see it as consensual.

    Since then, Mr. Kavanaugh has coached girls volleyball, become an upstanding member of society, has two beautiful girls, went on to a stellar career as a jurist, and now sits on the Supreme Court.

    Oh wait, we were talking about Mr. Bryant, not attempted-rape high school Brett, with Kobe "only 25 at the time" as NCD helpfully points out (actually 24, if it matters), and went on to a stellar basketball career.

    To respond to one of Danny's contentions, we don't know fuck all about whether more happened before or after. Until Magic Johnson got HIV, he would have been credited as a family man. And as Trump and Weinstein and Cosby have shown, a bit of cash can make a lot of problems go away - except the physical and mental suffering of girls attacked over the years. Who would believe some desperate clinging aspiring starlet over America's Dad anyway? A female WaPo journalist, a "survivor" herself, was suspended just for tweeting the URL to a Guardian story, raining on the Kobe outpouring of grief. We often don't believe women, and we often cover for boys will be boys. And men's success makes us ignore huge flaws - that's how we roll. Frances McCormand chatted nicely with Bryant, so he must be MeToo approved and friendly already, screw the bitchy Rose McGowan, amirite?

    Did Bryant change? I'd like to think so, though like with almost all #MeToo confessions, we get some "this is not the person I am" and "I've come to accept that she sees it differently" lukewarm spit. Bryant supported girls basketball, Trump supported girls pageants. Both were doting fathers to at least one daughter. Again, it tells me little. Bryant seemed much nicer from the little I know, but that's very little, and I like Charles Barkley as much as Kareem, tho one's an asshole and one's an artist and gentleman. 

    Polanski is a perv who drugged and ass-raped a 13-year-old. "Only 1" further case came forward recently (I *think* kept quiet for years). Michael Jackson was a perv that people brought their little kids to. But both were extremely creative. Will they ever deserve a raving accolade or obit without having some sort of caveat about their awful behavior? I hope not. But I would like to think there are people like Kareem who aren't hiding something scandalous, that a few heroes are through and through superstars to a reasonable level of moral ethics. I don't need all to be pure - just a few to be clean enough. And rape isn't clean.

    Also, Bryant was the son of an NBA player, partly raised in Italy, given pretty good advantages compared to most, if not the 1%, at least the top 10%. If we treat Kavanaugh's country club/prepschool upbringing as a negative in condemning his behavior, likely we should add it as a qualification for Bryant's, even though I will accept there are racial hurdles I or Brett didn't face, even with a well-off family.


    We understand. You set the rules.


    Who is "we"? Here's what I (just me, I only speak for myself) see: instead of censoring or just shutting down the thread, PP is trying to allow continued argument on topic by trying to raise the level of the arguments to grownup style and away from ad hominens and personal pre-conceptions about other members.If he has a slant as a moderator. it's this, PP is prejudiced this way: he's still interested in having grownup debate on topic. Whereas on another topic that he wasn't interested in, he might not put in the time he has here, and just shut it down.


    Kobe Bryant died suddenly in a helicopter crash. His 13-year old daughter perished with him. Many have feelings similar to losing a close friend. Others want to focus on the rape accusation in Colorado. In the middle of this comes Snoop Dogg threatening Gayle King. Snoop has Bill Cosby and O.J. Simpson as supporters.
     

    We might not see Martha Stewart hanging out with Uncle Snoop any time soon. Most people who have fond memories of Kobe, think Snoop, Cosby and Simpson are scumbags. They think that the violent speech against Gayle King is out of bounds. We continue to mourn Kobe's death. We understand that we are being judged for mourning a man accused of rape. 
     

    Ta-Nehisi Coates defended Gayle King on Twitter

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B8XATNyp6P9/?utm_source=ig_embed

     Nothing Gayle King said should result in the violent pushback she received.

     


    Frankly I think it less important that others judge us than that we judge for ourselves our values, our associations, our inconsistencies. What does it mean to watch a Polanski movie, listen to Michael Jackson, fondly remember OJ's 2000 yard season. When we hear about #MeToo, it's a bit abstract, but then I notice that Weinstein cancelled Mira Sorvino after she played brilliantly kitsch & dumb Romy at a high school reunion, that Ashley Judd who did a marvelous job in De-Lovely was denied a lucrative and career-changing elfen role in Lord of the Rings because she didn't give head to a producer. Rose McGowan who thrilled in Scream as the cute likeable girlfriend who gets rolled up in a garage door opener - and frankly went a bit nutso after her Weinstein ordeal. But wouldn't I go nutso to be raped and then have to suck up to the same industry types? And these are the women we know about, just like we kinda know about Kobe's presumed victim getting a rumored $2.5 mill for the pleasure of being strangled and traumatized and intimidated. But the ones we don't know about, too afraid and too much nobodies to speak out or not believed and insulted if they do... They're all around. Michael Jackson's protective team is still active long after his death.

    And then there are characters like Mandela - who joined the Communists for a while, his turn to violence may have she'd blood... He served in jail, so he may have paid his dues, so we can feel safe in admiration.. But Gunther Grass, a fierce anti-Nazi novelist - who it turns out was a Nazi. But his novels are amazing, and seemingly quite moral. How do we reconcile our fandom? How do we acknowledge the victims, with our without canceling our often admirable but deeply flawed heroes. McCain came back from 5 or so years  POW camp and divorced his wife who'd waited and been in a debilitating car crash, to be dumped for an heiress. But I could tell that tale more forgivingly. The left has its own cads - how many up and left a family or abused someone badly, or chose some military or health or environmental path that hurt a lot of people - personal and/or policies. Oddly, Bill Clinton's public judgment seems about right - his "big dawg" shtick fatally faded, even as his political genius still admired. But as typical, the woman - his wife - takes the brunt of the ridicule - her fault for staying in a "loveless marriage" if not encouraging and deserving his infidelities. Kind of like Gayle King is wrong to mention Kobe's huge failing - as if a scene out of The Godfather where all's forgiven at a funeral or wedding. But someone always remembers, even if they can't settle scores. There are too many to make right, but at least we can express it, take it serious, try not to bury it or double down on the insensitivity and caddishness.

    And then how can we make a big deal about not enough minorities and women as directors and scriptwriters and Oscars awarded or paid equally - if we then turn around and ignore how many got pawed and raped and had other scary and debilitating experiences in their professional field, sometimes career destroying, other times just career hampering or hobbling? It's a horrid inconsistency that will hopefully come to be seen as unsustainable, not something to just hush up cuz it's not the right time...


    I am reminded that those who condemn people mourning for Kobe will tell us to have compassion for Trump supporters because the supporters are suffering economically. Trump is accused of sexual assault by multiple women, yet in the quest for votes, we overlook that they are/have supported an alleged rapist.

    There will always be inconsistencies. Coates, Susan Rice, Oprah, and multiple others did not shy away from the Kobe rape accusation. The effort to gain diversity will not be silenced. People forgiving Kobe has nothing to do with that protest.


    Who the hell is saying "dont't mourn Kobe"? Another strawman. I do tire of hearing how he atoned without understanding what the atonement was. Playing good basketball isn't atonement by itself. Helping out your daughter isn't atonement...


    That's more of the stupid bullshit you constantly push here. I'm sure many who urge compassion for poor Trump supporters also urge compassion for Kobe. Or even buy into the hero worship. I've seen absolutely no evidence there is some corelation between those who urge compassion for Trump supporters and those who condemn Kobe. 


    No bullshitting

    People mourning Kobe, are reminded that Kobe was accused of rape.
    Should we remind Trump supporters that Trump has multiple accusations of rape?


    You said, "I am reminded that those who condemn people mourning for Kobe will tell us to have compassion for Trump supporters because the supporters are suffering economically."

    I replied, " I've seen absolutely no evidence there is some corelation between those who urge compassion for Trump supporters and those who condemn Kobe."

    You declined to address my post and changed the subject. That's what you do. That's why there's never any real or meaningful dialog with you. All we get from you is strawmen, obfuscation, diversion.

    But to answer your question. Yes. If a Trump supporter came here I'd definitely remind them of the many accusations of groping and physical sexual harassment. You see, unlike you, I don't spin, divert, obfuscate, or lie. I have no agenda to push.  Right or wrong, agree or disagree. I'm consistent across the board.


    I addressed my post. Kobe accused of rape. Trump accused of rape. To gain votes, it is suggested that we treat Trump supporters with kid gloves because some of them may break off and vote for the Democratic candidate. We had a discussion about a guy named Ted, for example.


    Yes, you addressed your post. Then you addressed your post. Then you addressed your post again. What you never do is address what other people post. That's what most people do when they dialog. They address what the other person posts.


    Ok, I'll accept Kobe's extensive charity work that maybe he indeed atoned for bad behavior through that work.

    Now, you put Trump "accused" rape next to Kobe "accused" of rape next to each other, but th yre not the same thing.K

    obe's *presumed* victim reported the rape immediately, police found physical evidence in a rape kit-style examination, Kobe denied it, then had to admit it, then said *extreme choking* with bad choke marks was "consensual*, then when the girl was intimidated enough not to testify (highly paid lawyers *were* already smearing her as a slut with having DNA from another guy, which if she'd had sex that morning didn't preclude she hadn't planned on being raped that night so it's largely *immaterial*, they found Kobe's DNA...), and then he admitted publicly, as part of giving her a rumored $2.5mil, that while he thought it consensual, he accepts she didn't see it that way.

    That's a helluva "accused" - a lot of facts, not a lot of exonerated.

    Versus accusations against Trump that for the most part I believe were not reported to the police in a timely fashion with a physical examination and/or investigation that would support or disprove the claim. 

    It's insulting to the victim to, after she spoke up quickly put her privacy and public reputation on the line going up against a wealthy well-connected guy to have her claims largely validated by police and courts, to have this "everybody does it" comparison with much less certain or prosecutable accusations not reported until years later. I.e. you're still smearing her after her doing the right thing by blandly comparing her to those who didn't have the courage, understandably of course, to jump through the vicious hoops of reporting rape, against a celebrity or against anyone.

    (and paying off a porn star for consensual sex doesn't prove rape allegations)


    here's a black feminist, Cassie DaCosta, once a blogger on Feministing (I found that out by googling), now the entertainment editor at Daily Beast, writing an op-ed on topic

     Snoop Dogg’s Attacks on Oprah and Gayle King and Defense of Kobe, MJ and Cosby Are Classic Misogynoir

    Femplaining of "misogynoir" from wikipediaMisogynoir is misogyny directed towards black women where race and gender both play roles in bias[1]. The term was coined by queer black feminist Moya Bailey, who created the term to address misogyny directed toward black women in American visual and popular culture.[2] Trudy of Gradient Lair, a womanist blog about black women and art, media, social media, socio-politics and culture, has also been credited in developing the lexical definition of the term.[3]....

    So they're out there, those criticizing. Even writing on major news sites. Things are not as they seem from Dagblog. Not interested in offering my opinion, just the link, as I fully admit I am quite prejudiced against worship of sports heroes of all types and colors.

    Over a lifetime of learning to live with sports fans, however, I learned to keep my mouth shut on topic, because irrational sports fandom will always be with us and to discuss is a futile activity. Because: sports heroes are not considered mere mortals by a majority, far more so than other types of celebrities. Is what it is.


    The Stanford swim team rapist who left his victim knickers down behind a dumpster got probation to not "ruin his life" comes to mind. Her life? Not part of the sentencing guidelines. Bill Barr and Roger Stone would be pleased. (the judge did get recalled, a rare token of righteous retribution)


    Amber Wyatt, rape & sports

    Talk about "cancel culture"

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/opinions/arlington-texas/


    Jackson made some good music. I still watch his videos occasionally. But I don't forget that he's almost surely a pedophile. It's possible to separate the art from the artist. To enjoy the art and condemn the artist. But pretending the art is all that matters is imo very wrong. That's what we see happening with Cardwell's blog. 

    There can never be 100% surety about what happened between two people alone in a room. But the evidence against Kobe is greater and more convincing than the evidence against Jackson. Pretending or ignoring that evidence while writing a glowing obituary is a character flaw imo.

    The ability of some people to purposely walk around wearing blinders is astonishing. Some people seem able to swallow the most outrageous and obvious myths to maintain their delusions of their heroes greatness. In Jackson's case we have the myth that he was a man child, some sort of asexual person. Watching many of his videos would give that lie away with so many them being so sexual. When it comes to our heroes, for some any excuse will do for them to blind themselves from the clear, obvious, and heinous crimes they committed.

    Who can honestly say the choreography of the dance made it an artistic necessity for Jackson to caress his dick so much and opening his pants zipper multiple times was asexual behavior from a man child. The reality is that Jackson was a fully sexual man with a predilection for young boys. Which he happy indulged in.

     

     

     

     


    "happily" is a bit much judgment for me. Shia Labeouf was arrested for extreme drunkenness and asshole behavior. As part of his tr atment he realized he'd watched helplessly as his mom was raped and still suffered from PTSD. I don't pretend to know what's screwed people up.


    Female judge threatened - penalties wiped away, her power taken. Female replacement for Mueller is insultingly removed for no cause. Female ambassador is followed, threatened, forced to leave the country quick and secret. It's all related, just a matter of degree.


    Looks like ViacomCBS remains silent 

    By the time VH1 personality Snoop Dogg apologized late Wednesday for his vicious and obscene attack on CBS This Morning anchor Gayle King—apparently under pressure from his corporate overlords at the freshly merged ViacomCBS—the damage was all but irreversible.

    For almost a week—and even as this is written—ViacomCBS chairman Shari Redstone and the publicly traded company’s chief executive, Bob Bakish, have remained chillingly silent as the disturbing spectacle of one of their franchise stars publicly threatening another played out in the national media circus.

    “Funky dog-head bitch! How dare you try to tarnish my motherfuckin’ homeboy’s reputation!” Calvin Cordozar Broadus Jr. (Snoop’s real name) assailed King in an Instagram video for asking a perfectly fair question about the late Kobe Bryant’s rape case during a wide-ranging interview with Bryant’s friend, WNBA star Lisa Leslie. “Punk motherfucker! Respect the family and back off, bitch, before we come get you!”

    Faced with Broadus’ outburst, ViacomCBS’ C-suite leaders are displaying all the moral backbone, along with desperate devotion to the bottom line, of the Republican senators who blocked any and all witnesses at Donald Trump’s impeachment trial. Their spokespeople didn’t respond to multiple requests for comment.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/everyone-came-to-gayle-kings-defense-against-snoop-dogg-except-cbsviacom-bosses?ref=home


    It's been a few weeks since I posted this and I'm still having my character and integrity questioned by people who hide behind "clever" nom de plumes. Let me say this one more time: I don't care what internet trolls think of me. I know me. I'm a real person who doesn't hide. I didn't hide in the streets and I don't hide online.

    Some of you are so infatuated with being right that you miss a lot of things right in front of you. The post I wrote was tagged personal. This wasn't an obituary. This wasn't an attempt to relitigate a nearly two decade old incident. It was a composite of what I was feeling and what others expressed. 

    The moment I'm not wanted here is the moment I will gladly leave. Some of y'all are shells of your former selves. What kind of adult hides behind a an internet alias? Any man or woman to insecure to put their name on their opinions is no different to me than the alt-right trolls with Pepe the frog avatars.

    PEACE! 

     


    1) I use an alias because my name's boring and I don't need someone freaking out over something said on the internet and dragging me in real life for personal or professional reputation (see posts on "Cancel Culture"). I don't particularly see where my or other avatars' words don't speak for themselves. .

    2) most everything here is personal *AND* political. In some cases people really share truly personal stories, and I think we give wide berth on those.

    3) you do have a point that Oceankat's reaction's a bit too personal. You're certainly not the only person to feel it's not time to "relitigate", others think it's not relitigating to acknowledge an awful largely admitted fuckup in the past, even in time of shock. We can discuss the principle without slathering on personal evaluations. People are complex, and how they come to specific value judgments is complex - rational, emotional, visceral, quixotic. Everybody has unaccepted non-PC opinions in various areas. Most of these will never change, but we still come to the blog to discuss in mostly intelligent, curious ways. Being right for me is less the point than expanding my worldview, finding something new (even if it may not appear so).

    4) Ironically your questioning people's characters based on their noms de plumes or traumatic they might commit suicide over as personal as the reactions to your post that you object to.

    Anyway, we've largely addressed - let's move onto arguments about other news of the day. And do our best to express ourselves more persuasively or exploratory rather than just more insistently.

    BTW, did you pause to consider the points either OK or I made, whether they had more than passing validity?


    You may not have noticed that 9 out of 10 of the people here use a nom de plume. Even one of the founding members on the masthead and imo the best writer here, Dr Cleveland, uses a nom de plume. I wonder why you come here if you consider 90% of the people here " no different to me than the alt-right trolls." 

    To me it seems obvious that no one here cares what other people here think of them. I wonder why you feel the need to state that obvious truth.  For example you have several times insulted most people here with your attacks on the use of nom de plumes. Since not one of the people using nom de plumes have begun to use their given name in response it's clear that no one cares about your insulting campaign against nom de plumes. 

    Of course you didn't post to discuss Kobe's violent rape. But you don't get to decide how people will respond to the topics you bring up. I'm sure you would like agreement and praise for all that you post, who wouldn't. At least you would prefer those who disagree remain silent. But this site is designed for conversation and debate. The format the creators of the site picked is unusual among most of the sites I read where it's extremely difficult to follow any conversation that might take place. The comment section here facilitates dialog, dialog you mostly decline to participate in. That seems to be a deliberate choice made by those who run and maintain this site. You could make a request to the administrators that comments be disabled on your blogs. You're not the first who wanted their blogs to stand above the fray and to be free from the thoughts and opinions of the hoi polloi.Those who run this site have never granted that request.

    There are a few people here who have made valid critiques of your blog, it's not just me. Your comment is just a way to avoid defending your opinions in open debate. Open debate is inherent in the design of this site and the reason most of us come here. I doubt that will change.


    That said, we can try making things less personal so we debate the actual matters.


    The deification of heroes, especially sports heroes, and ignoring extremely credible accusations of rape because of that hero worship is an actual matter that actually matters. I don't see how it's possible to avoid the personal when Cardwell's post personally embodies that principle.


    I think you're more intelligent than that. Please try.


    With the mention of "Dr. Cleveland," came to mind that one thing he has never been shy about revealing about himself is that he is a scholar of the work of the guy who wrote What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.


    People used to think that until Linnaeus came around a couple of hundred years later. He was a Swedish botanist, zoologist, and physician who formalised binomial nomenclature, the modern system of naming organisms. We now know that every organism has one and only one true and proper name.

    Kingdom:PlantaeClade:TracheophytesClade:AngiospermsClade:Eudicots

    Clade:RosidsOrder:RosalesFamily:RosaceaeSubfamily:RosoideaeTribe:Roseae

    Genus:Rosa

    As you can see, that which we call a rose isn't even called a rose if we used it's true name. 


    What do roses call themselves? And what were they before they learned to speak? Burroughs contended language is a virus. How was it before the pandemic?


    The NBA MVP award in the NBA All-Star game is named for Kobe

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kobe-bryant-nba-all-star-award_n_5e492092c5b64433c617a99c

    Kobe Bryant’s Mamba Sports Foundation will now be known as the Mamba & Mambacita Sports Foundation, to carry on the legacy of both the NBA legend and his 13-year-old daughter Gianna, who died in a helicopter crash last month.

    Vanessa Bryant announced the name change for her late husband’s charity on Thursday.

    “Because there is no #24 without #2, we have updated the Mamba Sports Foundation to now be called the Mamba & Mambacita Sports Foundation,” she wrote on Instagram, referring to Kobe and Gianna’s jersey numbers. 
     

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vanessa-bryant-mambacita-sports-foundation_n_5e45da03c5b64433c6138c9a


    Obama on Kobe

    Forever President Barack Hussein Obama blew into The Windy City this week to take part in the All Star Weekend festivities.

    As a speaker of the NBA’s Newsmaker Brunch on Saturday, #44 reflected on the recent passing of NBA superstar Kobe Bryant.

    “That loss is something I know many are still grappling with,” Obama said. “Particularly Kobe, because he was with his daughter and those families and those children and those of us who have had the joy and privilege of being parents and taking kids to ball games and then rooting for our children and seeing our dreams and hopes passed on to them. Nothing is more heartbreaking.”

    CNN’s Wolf Blitzer, who called the speech “moving and emotional” captured some of his remarks on video and posted to Instagram.

    https://www.theroot.com/nothing-is-more-heartbreaking-obama-says-of-the-kobe-br-1841731897


    BET Networks will celebrate the life and memory of late basketball legend Kobe Bryant in a special way.

    The Black-centric ViacomCBS-owned network announced its plans to pay tribute to the iconic five-time NBA champion who perished with eight others in a fatal helicopter crash on Jan. 26.

    On Feb. 24, a programming block will begin at 1 p.m. ET with BET Remembers: Kobe Bryant, a live commercial-free broadcast of Bryant’s memorial service, anchored by author, activist and Black Coffee host Marc Lamont Hill, alongside sports journalist Jemele Hill.

    https://www.theroot.com/bet-networks-to-honor-kobe-bryant-with-full-coverage-of-1841871699


    Bryant' widow sues helicopter company.


    Tom Brady remembers Kobe

    Tom Brady poured out his grief over Kobe Bryant’s death in an emotional essay posted Tuesday. The football great explored why the tragedy has kept him up crying at night while lauding the Lakers legend’s ability to inspire others off the court.

    Bryant was killed with his daughter Gianna and seven others in a January helicopter crash.

    “Why has this touched me in the way that it did? Why has it kept me up at night, and brought me so many tears?” Brady wrote in a Twitter entry.

    The New England Patriots quarterback, whose unsurpassed 20-year reign with the team could end with his free agency in March, focused on Bryant’s life after basketball.

    “In his second chapter, you saw even more,” Brady wrote. “You saw his excitement for life, and for achieving in areas only he thought possible. He became more of an entrepreneur, media mogul, father, husband and mentor among other roles. And he didn’t stop with himself. Kobe didn’t care whether you were a man or woman, boy or girl, black or white, rich or poor, ordinary or extraordinary, he wanted to help you become the best you could be. His mere presence had an effect on everybody he was around. He had the energy to recognize in others what they could not recognize in themselves. I think that’s why I will miss him most.”

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tom-brady-kobe-bryant-tribute_n_5e567508c5b62e9dc7daf892


    I missed that. Thanks for the heads up.


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