MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Comments
Sure, it's almost okay to criticize AIPAC if you do it in a way that no one notices. See how reasonable they are?
Meanwhile Mondoweiss pushes back on the idea that criticizing Israel is "anti-Semitism" - https://mondoweiss.net/2019/03/nothing-semitic-calling/ (not sure if 230 signatories counts as a lot...)
Also wondering how say Sheldon Adelson & AIPAC & Bibi spending a fuck-ton of money to influence US & Israeli politics is working against that "it's all about the Benjamin's" meme, even as we note good that Bloomberg and Soros are doing good even though they're rich, or that Elon Musk is a non-Jew doing good even though rich, etc. - how many disclaimers needed for a simple conversation?
And still this Israeli-Palestinian awfulness goes on decade after decade.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 2:55am
Marcy reviews things from the security perspective...
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/03/06/eli-lakes-serial-defense-of-bibi-n...
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 3:30pm
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 7:14am
The whole thing is ridiculous. You can critique money in politics in every single way but one, AIPAC, because the "rich jew" is an anti-semitic meme. Most of Sanders campaign against Hillary could be boiled down to "It's all about the benjamins." Which was, you know, OK because she's not Jewish.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 10:07am
Balderdash.
The notion that one cannot criticize American policy towards Israel without questioning the loyalty of American Jews is just nonsense. The slander of Jewish dual loyalty emerged hundreds of years before AIPAC was even a gleam in Bibi's eyes.
What's the deal here? When they go low, we climb right down there with them?
The more things change. . .give me a break.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 7:48am
But it's okay to note that the AIPAC lobby is money-hungry and seeks out lock-step influence, right? I mean, that's pretty much what all lobbies do, just some are more voracious than others.
(and by definition AIPAC has dual loyalties - including some prominent spying cases - which possibly wouldn't be such a problem if not for pictures of civilian casualties, destroyed buildings and complete lack of peace progress for 2 decades, while egging us on towards military conflict with Iran and some yet-to-be fully fleshed out influence of our elections...)
Of course the obvious situation is that over recent epochs many millennials and younger, including American & British Jews, *don't* support Israel's physical violence & overall approach towards Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and much of the criticism is towards Bibi, not Israel as a whole. And AIPAC is continually trying to push back that flood of warranted condemnation. 10 years ago they could count on Congress pretty much lining up *100%* in their pocket. I think that figure's taken a dive.
And this one didn't help... "The dropping of the charges will come as a relief to Aipac because the case threatened to overshadow its annual conference this weekend at which it parades support from American politicians. It was also an embarrassment which laid the lobby group open to charges of putting Israel's interests above those of the US."
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 8:45am
Of course it’s OK to speak of AIPAC. Omar most recently spoke of loyalty. It’s a matter of de minimis sensitivity I submit. I believe you yourself have shown that you can criticize AIPAC without resort to ugly tropes. It ain’t rocket science. .
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 9:58am
I think it's clear that the people here are not anti-semitic. I remember a couple of times when practically every one weighed in against Walltree when we claimed some of his posts contained anti-semitic tropes. When you and others have a level of sensitivity to subtle anti-semitic comments that even the very liberal and sensitive people here can't see you have a problem that requires considerable education and explanation to over come.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 2:34pm
First, this is a weird comment, I mean really strange. And that is because I called nobody here antisemitic. So ick.
Second, it's your nickel and you can define what might be offensive to Jews as you wish.
Third, and because it's America, you can simply denigrate the sensitivities of those who might have a different opinion about what feels dirty on the basis of one's ethnicity.
Whatever rocks your boat.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 2:55pm
My point was that those here have a history of standing up against anti-semitism. I think that's a meaningful point if we don't understand your claim of anti-semitism. It didn't in any way imply you accused anyone here of anti-semitism.
You also can make any claim you want. But like any claim made here you can't expect people to accept it at face value if you are unwilling to explain your view and make a convincing argument defending it. I don't think that in anyway denigrates the sensitivities of those who might have a different opinion.
But whatever rocks your boat. You're just some stranger on the internet. I don't give any more of a fuck about you than you give a fuck about me.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 3:44pm
Then why are you cursing at me if you don't care? Like I said, strange.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 3:41pm
I don't accept your subjective standard of what is an appropriate word. I use shit, bullshit, ass, and fuck when ever I feel like it. You're not the first person with a puritanical view of language to complain to me about it. Considering how often famous authors use "curse words" in their writings writing fuck doesn't seem strange at all to me. I mean really, I just post on this little site on the back woods of the internet. Do you reject every best selling book the moment you see a curse word? If so your reading must be very limited.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 4:06pm
Omar was criticized by Congressional Democrats.that was not enough.
Tom Friedman writes about AIPAC in the NYT. He thinks that Omar does it want Israel to exist. He also notes the following
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/06/opinion/israel-ilhan-omar.html
The truth of the matter is that it is difficult to criticize Israel without being labeled anti-Semitic. AIPAC and support for Netanyahu is going to have to be dealt wit in the Jewish community,,because any strong comments from those outside the Jewish community will be labeled as bigots. Do you have examples of criticisms of Israel that have even been received without pushback?
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 2:40pm
I don't think you understand the breadth and diversity of views on Israel among American Jews. My rabbi at a major synagogue in NYC has been "blackballed" by the Israeli government. So all of this presumed uniformity is just awkwardly incorrect IMO. No, it's not my opinion--it's just wrong.
And I don't know what you mean by "pushback." I'm not here to defend AIPAC, but I think there was "pushback" when President Obama negotiated the Iran Deal, but he still got the deal, no?
And why would it be my burden to disprove the thesis that American Jews are not loyal to country (or are dually loyal), or that American Jews (through AIPAC) control American foreign policy? I would think that it's more properly your burden to somehow show that this persistent "pushback" you treat as a given: (a) is real; and (b) leads to Jewish control of foreign policy.
Now, finally, there are many Jews who use allegations of antisemitism against those who in no way deserve to be called antisemites. For folks like me, not the cardboard cutouts that make this debate for some easier, I've been branded a KAPO for defending the Women's March. A Kapo by fellow Jews. Do you have any idea what that means? I've felt the wrath so many seem to fear of being called Jew-hater. And it's ultimately a big fat so f'ng what.
Thanks for trying to bridge.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 3:55pm
It's not your burden to prove or disprove anything. But if you expect to be taken seriously when you post here people expect you to defend your opinions with convincing arguments.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 3:56pm
Evangelicals feel that they have the right to define Christianity. Other Christians have to remind Evangelicals that harm done to the poor and immigrants is harm done to the spirit and is not Biblically based. The burden to counter the Evangelicals is primarily on Christians. I think the same principle is in operation with criticizing Israel. Jewish people have to take the lead.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 5:51pm
Jewish people have to take the lead.
Says who? Which Jewish people? You are so damn tribal and such a stereotyper. Bruce has been trying very hard to give examples of how much Jewish people differ on all kinds of things, how they vehemently disagree on issues. And you basically come back with: they need to be more tribal, they need to all think alike and talk alike and present with the same thoughts and ideas.
by artappraiser on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 10:47pm
Jewish people *have* taken the lead - it's just there are different Jewish people leading in different directions, including apathy. Personally I have dual allegiance to the Beastie Boys - the right to return pales against the Right to Party - but don't tell anyone - it'd be Sabotage.
PS - was it cultural appropriation when Amy Winehouse sang "Back to Black"? asking for a friend
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 5:08am
Being more “tribal” might be a good thing. Right now, Israeli leadership is simply a branch of the Republican Party. I made the comparison to Christians taking the lead in fighting back against the so-called Evangelicals. Homophobia in the black community has to be confronted mainly by black people. Really are going to have to rescue the Republican Party from Trump. You seem to find no logic in that position.
Edit to add:
Yes, Progressive Jews do realize that they play the important role in fighting charges of anti-Semitism.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/07/progressive-jews-worry-that-criticism-rep-ilhan-omar-will-stifle-debate-about-israel/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.75fdbf5cd1f1
Nothing that I said was controversial
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 9:48am
p.s. rmrd political method fictionalized:
by artappraiser on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 10:55pm
Given the repetition, I suspect that Omar is being intentionally inflammatory. That doesn't mean she's antisemitic or dog-whistling to antisemites, but I believe that she's being deliberately provocative in order to trigger a brouhaha that draws attention to her cause. And frankly, it's effective. I can't remember the last time so many people were talking about AIPAC.
But it's not right. I would have hoped that her experiences with islamophobia and racism would have made her more sensitive to the exploitation of offensive tropes for political gain.
by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 5:14pm
Well. I thought "it's all about the Benjamin's" (Netanyahu/Franklin) was pretty clever at a time when the Israeli PM's getting indicted for corruption. And comment after comment, blog after blog makes it clear no one thinks all Jews are in lockstep with either AIPAC or all of Israel's policies. And I think we're all pretty clear that Bezos and Buffett and Carlos Slim etc are the richest in the world with nary a Rothschild in sight, and that "it's all about the Benjamins" makes one think much more about Trump and the Republican Congress and Russian/Saudi money flowing behind everything than any Israeli chump change or olden trope/stereotype you might be worried about. Perhaps this is a *good* breakthrough?
That doesn't mean sieg heils are no longer offensive or used provocatively by neo-Nazis and alt-right and other dangerous groups, but it's pretty damn tough to talk about offensive money and pressure in Washington without mentioning money and pressure.
"exploitation of offensive tropes for political gain" - I guess this dog whistle would be at you in this case if it is one , but for me most of politics especially from the GOP but also from liberals are exploiting the offensive to get someone's way. An unannounced 10-year-old in a Senator's office lecturing her on what someone put in his hands is both ageist and sexist (pretty sure they wouldn't expect such a good reception with a man).
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 6:34pm
I originally dismissed the Benjamins comment, but there have now been three such incidents: "“Israel has hypnotized the world," "all about the Benjamins," and "allegiance to a foreign country." Given the public reaction to the first two remarks and Omar's subsequent apologies, she evidently got the message, which makes me think the third provocation had to be deliberate.
by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 10:05pm
Like what, when Mitt Romney goes to Israel and starts hitting up donors or Sheldon Adelson holds his fundraisers there, it pisses me off much more than Rahm Emmanuel and countless others serving in the Israeli army, which is of course pretty hard core dual allegiance. When our Iranian policy - as fucked up as it is thanks to overthrowing Mossadegh and backing the Shah way too long gets kidnapped by Bibi's paranoia and political scheming, I get pissed off, and much of that is framed by these AIPAC fuckers as "we have to support Israel" rather than "we have to come up with a sane balanced sustainable Mideast policy rather than troops on the ground and 0 political progress". Note that Israel is not responsible for our initial fuckups with Iran, but she doesn't help much in calming and figuring out the current situation. And from what I see the "dual allegiance" comes as much or more from these religious and neocon conservatives - most non-Jewish - than any welling up of American Jewish conflicted loyalties. I mean, we have our "Special Relationship" with the UK, which largely got us into 2 world wars (and Iran), and that's of course largely an ethnic tie for us Anglo-Saxons, but we're older than 8, so if UK wants to nuke the Falklands, we pull back on our side of the reins. (But we will show sympathy when the lead singer of Prodigy or Talk Talk dies - we have that much shared compassion and loyalty).
I'd beg you to consider how much of these crackswe can't step on are largely antiquated in our current social-political context, not that skinheads andcan't GOP allies can't pull out renaissance shibbeloths to stoke fires, and that in this case the terms used are in a more precise political context reflecting AIPAC and its adherents who've largely walled off proper debate on their largely by now toxic influence, even though like Marion Barry they once served a useful purpose.
I recall when The Godfather played on TV first they had to put up a big disclaimer from the Anti-Defamation League or similar that there basically is no Mafia, it's just a slur against Italians, yadda-yadda... Not that I think most Americans looked at most Italians as Mafia members, or thought their summer trips to Italy were to meet their Capo. But yeah, the Mafia is a real thing, and while I agree it can get exaggerated, it's also counter-productive not to be able to discuss.
Think of AIPAC as similar to the NRA - hasn't our impression of them changed over the last decade, esp the last 2-3 years with Butina et al. Are we allowed to cross this sacred 2nd Amendment line to notice what effect they have? Do I care whether it's guns or abortion or Israel or prayer in school or voter IDs that these groups use to marginalize debate and enact bad policy?
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 2:16am
I loathe Bibi and find AIPAC malignant. So I agree with Omar's ends. I just disagree with the means. Rather than articulate how AIPAC corrupts American politics, she dropped snarky one-liners that are deliberately open to interpretation. Whose "Benjamins" was she talking about? A handful of right-wing donors? Or "the Jews?" Whose allegiance is she worried about? Republican politicians? Or "the Jews?"
By leaving the blanks unfilled, she ensured that many people would interpret her comments as antisemitic. And that was the point. Without the provocation, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Congress wouldn't have held its anti-hate vote. The pundit swarm would have turned its attention elsewhere.
It's the same tactic that right-wing provocateurs like Coulter and Limbaugh have been using for decades: deliberately offend your opponents to draw attention to your cause. It's effective, but it's not right.
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 11:23am
Still not completely convinced, but will keep it under consideration going forward.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 12:28pm
And while we're debating this, we're not discussing what sinister deal Bibi's involved with w Trump, the Saudis and UAE, arguably more important.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 2:40am
If Omar wasn't talking about Israel when she made her comment about "allegiance to a foreign country" the conservatives now attacking her would be cheering her on. While I think conservatives demagogue and exaggerate the problem of dual citizenship and birthright citizenship I partially, perhaps mostly, agree with them on the substance. I have problems with those with dual citizenship, even Canadians, being able to vote in both countries elections. This is also a controversial issue in Canada. I think birthright citizenship is being abused in the US. There is a thriving business bringing Chinese pregnant women into the US to have children, get citizenship, and return to China to raise the child. That's quite different from a child born to non citizens who is then raised in the US with American cultural and political values. Again conservatives, and perhaps Omar, exaggerate the extent of the problem. But that doesn't mean there are no issues concerning allegiance to a foreign country and that does include some American Jews as well as other nationalities. Omar never claimed or implied that all American Jews have an allegiance to Israel despite what some articles on the subject claim. I don't see the comment as anti-semitic.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 10:33am
See my response to PP above. My point is not that her comments are antisemitic; it's that she designed them to invite accusations of antisemitism. Clearer language would have avoided those accusations. But she wanted to provoke a brouhaha to draw attention to her cause.
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 11:32am
I think you're probably right. But isn't that what twitter is for? Short snarky controversial comments meant to provoke people. That's why I usually don't pay any attention to it, it's 95% bullshit. The only time I pay attention to twitter is when it goes viral big time like with Omar or when Arta plays editor and sorts and selects for us.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 1:53pm
Netanyahu spoke in Congress and openly criticized a sitting President. That is provocative. Netanyahu and AIPAC are the true problems,
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/03/03/390250986/netanyahu-to-outline-iran-threats-in-much-anticipated-speech-to-congress
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 9:12pm
whataboutism alert
by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 10:06pm
lest any are forgetting where the same became an art form:
...According to The Economist in 2008, Soviet propagandists received training in this technique to deflect unwanted attention....
Russian Paid Troll Practices: Whataboutism, Dec. 2014
by artappraiser on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 11:13pm
and even if this might aggravate PP, I think this is a classic Dem response to whatabboutism on Jews, one that alienates classic Dem types from lefties:
Same thing going on with Corbyn.
I just note it as a political fact, not anything else. It's where the culture is at this point in time: this one is divisive and can be used as a tool to deflect.
On bigger picture: whether something is a meaningful trope or not (hurtful or not, any trope.) If these things are to be changed, it is better left to be changed in arguments over pop culture and not in politics. I.E., Apu on The Simpsons, rather than a Representative tweeting wisecracks about Indian immigrants. Once again, this is basically just say no to culture wars in politics. Culture wars are basically a GOP tool to distract from policy that is not divisive. It's not that onerous to censor oneself that way and sure seems like it's often counterproductive not to.
by artappraiser on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 11:34pm
I'm sorry, what are we arguing about except a comment "it's all about the Benjamins"? Is this our Omaha Beach, the Silliest Generation?
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 1:44am
Even better example:
by artappraiser on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 10:33am
Via a link to Pioneer Press that appeared in comments there:
Wow, how divisive of her to ask for understanding as a discriminated-against minority of a religious group we've been largely at war with for a few decades. Don't try to correct "teacher".
Guess she didn't get the memo on how man-splainin' is supposed to work - interventions are 1 way. "Off with the kids gloves", which is kinda what they're saying to "adorable childlike" AOC.
Bring it on.
PS - and no, this isn't close to the real seriousness of say having part of the Million Woman March leadership supporting & excusing Farrakhan.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 11:07am
Touché
The overall point is that the response to the comments are overblown. Omar is not the problem.
Edit to add:
I should have said
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 10:46am
Well, there are lots of problems, and Omar's commentary obviously ain't the biggest. But I don't think she minds that we're discussing her remarks. In fact, I think that was her intention.
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 11:01am
Presumably La Follette would be proud. Or at least Saul Alinsky:
"The job of the organizer is to maneuver and bait the establishment so that it will publicly attack him as a 'dangerous enemy'. The hysterical instant reaction of the establishment [will] not only validate [the organizer's] credentials of competency but also ensure automatic popular invitation.[14] "
PS - I'm off my game - missed the music ref:
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 11:11am
Omar’s words gained power specifically because of the overreach of AIPAC etc. They made her words overtly anti-Semitic. Focus then went to Netanyahu reaching out to a right wing political party and the influence of AIPAC’s money.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 11:53am
The power to do what exactly? To be a mistrusted and suspect part of the Democratic coalition? To keep Democrats divided over culture wars terminology? Refusing to learn from bad reactions how to effectively communicate without blowback = power for a politician?
by artappraiser on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 12:02pm
Here's the top center on Fox News' home page right now, with huge photo collage. They are loving it, just loving what she did, gloating, rubbing it in to Dem operatives:
by artappraiser on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 12:12pm
The majority of Fox News viewers are gone. They were against Omar just because she is Muslim. They are pro-Israel and merely await the Rapture when they expect Jews will be vaporized. If you look for rational thought on Fox, you will be disappointed.
The Democratic resolution did not name Omar specifically because they realized they overreacted.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 6:42pm
You don't get the picture, it's not about Fox viewership. Those stories are politicos crowing about the possibility of winning back all those swinging surburban women voters who just swung a little towards the center in the last national elections. They are going to publicize every Omar-like-culture wars outbreak in the Dem party to the max like a gift from heaven. As it is laid out in this article: Fox News has always been partisan. But has it become propaganda? You know, propaganda, like the Russian trolls? The more you talk about it, the better, the more disruption, the better. Divisiveness in left of center is what they are after.
This is Gingrich/Delay 101. Contract with America vs. all those scary crazy lefty Dems.
by artappraiser on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 6:55pm
You are the one who doesn’t get the picture. People are going to feel sticker shock when they fill out their taxes. Trump’s campaign manager was just sentenced. Other Trump administration officials are about to fall. Jared and Ivanka are under scrutiny concerning intelligence clearances. Drip ...drip...drip.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 7:26pm
no kidding
by artappraiser on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 10:52pm
Reframing with this new news. Slow learner about politics? Or an intentional leftist disrupter of the Dem party?
ILHAN OMAR BACKTRACKS AFTER CALLING OBAMA A “PRETTY FACE” WHO “GOT AWAY WITH MURDER”
Democrats didn’t abandon Omar over her comments about Israel. Her criticism of Barack Obama is another matter.
By Tina Nguyen @ VanityFair.com, March 8, 6:27 PM
I am starting to think: might as well be Glenn Greenwald; she's into throwing bombs for her constituency. Comparatively, Bernie should be called a stalwart centrist defender of the national Democratic party.
by artappraiser on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 6:34pm
Just published on same big picture "disrupter" meme:
House infighting: Does Pelosi have a tea party problem?
By Lisa Mascaro and Laurie Kellman @ A.P., 14 minutes ago
by artappraiser on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 7:21pm
Interesting paragraphs from the Politico article about her Somali-American constituents. (I'll give that it's hearsay, but there is more detail about her district in the article which tends to support Alberta's interpretation as to "get along centrism"):
edit to add more later from the article:
Basically: to troll or not to troll, to be a radical like Trump with culture wars, or a moderate. Then think about the swings that hold the key to presidential elections and other elections that are subject to the influence of gerrymandering. Why did they want to send him a message that they no longer approved if they ever did?
by artappraiser on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 7:42pm
Omar is controversial. Ocasio-Cortez is controversial. Pressley is controversial. They were ushered in by a high turnout inspired by fear of Donald Trump and a rejection of complacent Democrats.
A state Senator from Arkansas garnered national attention when she walked out of a committee discussion about a proposed “Stand Your Ground” law. The committee wanted to limit discussion on the bill. Citing concerns about te safety of her black son if the bill passed. She walked out of the session, asking if her colleagues were going to shoot her for leaving.
https://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2019/03/07/race-guns-and-the-arkansas-legislature
This is not troll behavior. This is political activism. Get used to it.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 8:53pm
Mixing apples and orange-ade.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 12:39am
With raspberry Kool-Aid.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 2:09am
No, it’s about activists getting elected.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 9:21am
Well, bring in Guzmão and Allende and Mandela and Navalny then - you've found your thread.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 11:03am
No I choose the correct thread.
Edit to add:
The new Congress was marked by its activist roots
https://www.thenation.com/article/activist-lawmaker-democrats-midterms/
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 12:11pm
Well thanks for blacksplaining that. Much obliged.I've been in a cave these past 5 months...
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 2:24pm
You were the one who seemed to dismiss activists. Activists step on toes.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 3:17pm
Again: step on toes only gets radicals re-elected in radical districts. That does not a governing majority make. As a congressperson, you have to learn to make sausage.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 3:37pm
Nope. Again, from downthread. She's a congressperson now, not a grass roots activist. Bomb throwing activities are over, this is elected politics. Few want a left version of Trump:
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 3:17pm
She said and then he said she said: twitter fight, Politico interviewer and Rep. Omar. She's got a tape, he's got a tape, and furthermore....
Edit to add: his title over @ Politico is Chief Political Correspondent.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 5:20am
She has deleted the snarky tweet claiming Tim Alberta distorted what she said (the one he responds to above) maybe she's learning
Ilhan Omar deletes tweet claiming Politico distorted Obama criticism @ NYPost.com, March 9, 4:58 pm
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/10/2019 - 1:55am
Murdoch's NYPost has decided to emphasize the part from the Omar interview @ Politico about "The Squad" being to the Dem Party like the "Tea Party" was for the GOP:
But the story on the Obama quote is far more popular over there, currently "trending" with 99,000 + views:
Ilhan Omar: Obama’s a ‘pretty face’ who got ‘away with murder’
March 8, 2019 | 1:14pm
I'm thinking: Keep up the trolling and all those new Dem-leaning voters in Staten Island are history, Staten Island and the NYPost are like an old married couple.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 5:33am
Yeah, I can agree that targeting any group of fighting aged men with drones wasn't very progressive (though it kept us from sending troops in, which would have been less progressive).
But to what end? What's the purpose, end goal of diving into this now with the new House majority, Trump under the gun, etc? Will it help improve pressing legislation? End some current Executive Dept action? Further the 1st 100 Days Agenda?
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 7:35am
Perhaps this thread does more justice:
It is a decent question what some of the differences were in the Mideast between Bush and Obama and Trump. Or why Obama is "progressive" while instituting cages for immigrants.
We're lucky in ways that Trump is such a boorish conman - if he were a tittle less feral, a little more suave, our national peril would be greater by bounds. Beware a President Pence.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 7:53am
First we have to be honest. But after that , sensible.
Obama was a great president. Trailing only Lincoln.
But he got some things wrong. Important things.So we have to say that. As Jesse Jackson said -about himself- ¨The Lord is not finished with me yet¨.
And if we´re not honest we fail in our duty not only to one another but also to the person under discussion.Barak was wrong in caging immigrants. As LaGuardia said "When I make a mistake, it 's a beaut.¨
But
also we don´t need to encapsulate our comment in our own version of my friends Ken´s ¨Where you are completely wrong¨. Look for something that wasn´t completely wrong and try to build on that.
Israel and the Palestinians.
No one from either side is ever going to be completely fair. We shouldn´t expect that. In fact it would be not only abnormal but a sign of callous indifference. When forming our own personal assessment of a Jew or a Palestinian all we should hope for from either of them is that they are making an effort- a ¨good enough¨ effort to be a good human being.
by Flavius on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 10:36am
If we waited for our enemies to speak nice about us or adopt our framing, not a single conflict would ever be solved.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 10:53am
The facts on the ground are that Israel gets billions from the United States., Trump cutoff funding to a United Nations agency that provided funds to Palestinians.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/31/politics/trump-administration-ending-funding-palestinian-refugees/index.html
How do we address that reality?
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 10:56am
By attacking Trump, not Dems in your coalition who were satisfied with Obama's I-P policy. Perfect is enemy of the good. Omar is attacking hawkish Dems, instead of GOP; I wouldn't be surprised if Hillary is next. She sounds just like Glenn Greenwald or Lulu here.
There are better, less counterproductive ways than trolling for a Congressperson to pull things left if that's what you are trying to do. What don't you get about swings and Independents voting for Dems this time around because of Trump's trolling ways? People in the center don't like trolling! So far, it seems she obviously believes trolling works, she obviously believes Trump's bomb throwing, name calling and trolling ways work best. She's with his modus operandi on the opposite side. What don't you get about the majority not liking that? Call it activism if you want but it's counter-productive when you are a Congressperson working electoral politics and not college sit-ins. Look at what her Somali constituents are saying: hope she tones it down!
By your standards, Trump is an "activist" too! I don't see Ocasio-Cortez making Omar's mistakes. She's far savvier. So far Omar is just being counter-productive to her own causes. Just like Trump often is. If she can't do being a congressperson smart, she should just watch and learn a while, not tweet incendiary crap.
You want "activism" to whittle the Dem party down to the size of Antifa? Ya know, it's really hypocritical of you to criticize Bernie fans if you are going to go with supporting this kind of intra-party divisive activity.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 3:09pm
Activism won the midterms for the Democrats.
There is a “Beat Trump” fervor.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/us/politics/trump-democrats-2020-election.html
If Israel re-elections Netanyahu after he joined forces with a far right party, Omar will win the day.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 3:15pm
Anti-Trump swing voters are the reason the House now has a Dem majority instead of a minority, in particular: white suburban women.
Activists won in activist districts. Not in the districts that matter for a majority nationwide. Now that the House has been elected, you are talking dealing with the whole country now. Yes, if you have been elected by a left district, you represent what your constituents want. But in a grownup savvy way that doesn't threaten your party's goodwill with the entire public. Not spouting agitprop.
What you are advocating goes for the goose as well as the gander. By your arguments, what Trump diehard fans want, the entire GOP should defend. What Steve King says, the entire GOP shouldn't criticize.
Push too trollish and you will lose the majority again just like the Steve King Trump faction did.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 3:27pm
Bad example, Steve King won his election.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 6:30pm
You still don't get the math!!! Incredible !!! Geez, it's almost like dealing with Trump.
The House is now Dem majority because swing voters in swing districts swung away from Trump's party!!!
They could swing back if they become alienated by radical lefties taking over the Dem party, just like they were alienated by radical
Getting out the vote in districts that always vote Dem DOES NOT GET YOU A MAJORITY IN CONGRESS!!! You must get swings. Period. End of story. Until you either 1) change gerrymandering or 2) send swings to re-education camp to turn them into lefties.
You turn swing people off and they will come out and vote against you and you will lose your majority.
That is what happened in November (against GOP) and that is what will happen against Dems especially if they play Trump troll method.
The resolution was a purposeful protectionist measure against the Dem party being labeled "like Rep. Omar". They're not dummies. It may not be enough if Fox News et.al. is successful at branding the Dem party as "lefty socialist, anti-Semite and radically pro Muslim."
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 8:11pm
I understand the math. People are chomping at the bit to get rid of Trump.
You ignore the middle class tax hit.
Cohen testimony
Mueller report, etc.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 8:10pm
I'm not sure swing states work the way you are suggesting they do.
I don't think Trump in 2016 won Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin by trying to sound more "moderate",than Clinton. Your assumption that those kind of states are now to be won back by opting for a Clinton++ strategy sounds to my ears ... how do I say this politely and respectfully... nuts. ;)
But then again the country, actually the globe, seems nuts. So who am I to say you are wrong.
I bring it up because i am looking at our situation here. On this side of the pond we are looking at a sea-change after the May EU elections. For the first time, the pro-EU forces of the center left and center right will in all probability lose their majority. Extremist populists will be taking all those seats. You really can't frame the election here as a left vs right issue. It's about being in favor of the European establishment worldview or against it. i.e. do you believe that the rule of law and European economic and social integration are beneficial. Or perhaps that is also the wrong frame. The question is simply who do you think is for you and who is against you.
And here the swing voters between populists on the one hand and antidisestablishmentarians on the other (do I get bonus points for best-biggest word?) aren't those in the center as we used to know it. They aren't hesitating between incremental tax hikes or breaks to tweak the social safety net one way or another. They are looking to hear a voice for serious change, a break with the past, that offers credible solutions to serious problems. That has never been a forte of centrist candidates.
Not sure whether the key states in the US 2020 election have a similar dynamic. Maybe there is a possible place for radical centrists à la Macron stateside. But saying that radical policies are electoral poison seems like a quaint antiquated notion these days.
by Obey on Sun, 03/10/2019 - 11:22am
You're misinterpreting my statements as being about the same old same old 3rd way centrism theory. They weren't, not here, not on this topic. All I read about Nov. elections told me that the crucial swing voters were "anti Trump trolling". It wasn't about policy. It was about vulgar Trumpism and what it's doing to the country. The suburban wives went against it, the men not so much. And they were crucial in borderline red districts as to the House going Dem! To the point of many of those races being "squeakers."
I don't think those types are going to like being associated with a party that supports Trump style trolling by lefties. If this kind of thing gets too associated with the Dem party, they will turn again and vote GOP for Congress next time.
Also, to be clear: this would have nothing to do with who they vote for for Prez. They will still vote against the Trump troll if he is still running. And they will vote against the congressional party that is seen as trolling.They want civility and end to the stoking of divisiveness.
This is also the reason why so many of the House committee chairs and Pelosi don't like raising the Impeachment word. Because they are afraid it will increase the angry divisive rhetoric and it will turn swings against what they are doing if they do it, that it will blowback on them negatively. The crucial swings don't like bullying and trolling nor do they like super-righteous moral indignation. Any dallying with Trump because he was at first seen as refreshingly non politically correct "businessman" is over, it is clear he is a corrupt bully. That doesn't mean lefties get a mulligan to preach and bully and troll about what's moral and what's not. Just the opposite.
Edit to add: it behooves to remember that the Omar's and Ocasio-Cortez's did not flip districts, these were Dem districts before. Borderline districts are not becoming lefty all of a sudden, far from it. Some just have a slight majority fed up with Trumpist bullying and trolling. They want grownups.
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/10/2019 - 8:19pm
P.S. This strikes me right now as I ran across it: It's the playing of victim and bully at same time with rebel anti-politically correct "dog whistling" thrown in.
All kinds of moderate people know it when they see this kind of behavior now, like Omar's constituent Aden, as same as Trump. They don't like it, they don't want Trump from lefties either. Alltogether with the left of center, they make a majority, a majority doesn't want more Trump, the same majority that disapproves of him. So being like Trump and fighting like Trump is not the way to go. This majority is cobbled together with the help of some Republicans and they are mostly suburban women in important reddish swing districts. And some of them may have been the few that turned the electoral college to him.
I don't know what policies will help win at this time. But I do know that trolling and dog whistling tribal hatred like Trump does, that will help Dems lose.
Then there's that which I just posted elsewhere: even Fox News bean counters appear to know that doing it is not good for audience share.
by artappraiser on Mon, 03/11/2019 - 1:22am
This should remind us that we never see anything from normal Hispanic voters, which might be nice to understand why so many voted for Trump. (of course we might assume there was some voter suppression and possibly other vote rigging going on, but those don't account for a rather huge unexplained number that should have been horrified by this shithead and his shithole comments about Hispanics especially). Seems the MSM & usual pundits no hablan espanol and have little interesting doing so.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 03/11/2019 - 2:03am
Ok interesting take. Tried to google around for civility as an election issue and got this. It is somewhat in line with what you say, but it is not trolling as against civility. It suggests that it is more a question of engaging Trump on his choice of issues rather than Democrats making up their own mind about how to frame the debate. I.e. it is not a question of political style, it is not about how you say things, it is what you choose to talk about.
That said, it would be nice if civility was an issue. I don't see it making a comeback on this side of the Atlantic.
by Obey on Mon, 03/11/2019 - 3:04am
I agree. I don't support Omar. What ever her goals are this doesn't seem to be the way to achieve them. I didn't even like the "It's all about the benjamins" comment. That was Sanders line too and I didn't like it then. Money influences but it much more complex then that. All I've tried to do is explain why I don't think her comments were anti-semitic. I may be pretty harsh on Obama here but I'm not a politician. I'm not even a major pundit. I don't have to spin or even be judicious in my critiques.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 3:37pm
It's not rocket science what her job is now. You do like Ocasio-Cortez, work in a coalition with others to get a bill going or promote something, like the Green New Deal.
If she cares about I-P, she has to do likewise. Not throw twitter bombs and spout agitprop she read long ago at some leftist website or some Corbyn fan tweet. If AIPAC aggressive funding of campaigns is stymieing getting people on board, there are other ways to work on that, too. Look at how people have handled the same thing with NRA funding. Rather than saying "it's all about the Benjamins" on twitter, you work at branding Congresspersons that are taking AIPAC money as taking AIPAC money. If they can be shamed about that, maybe they are your next ally. If they are not shamed by that, they are not likely to be of help.(Furthermore, their district probably already supports what AIPAC is giving them money to do, if so, it's a no brainer to accept the money, why wouldn't they?.) That's how you attack, not with incendiary quips.
You sure don't do it by suggesting with dog whisltes that all American Jews think the same. When you turn off a Josh Marshall or a Bruce Levine, you've lost some real important people who could help you if you care about what's happening to Palestinians. You've basically made yourself a minority. Hot news for her: even J Street isn't going to like her rhetoric.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 4:17pm
There's likely as many or more evangelical Christians then American Jews that have hard line support for Israel. Because they think the final battle of the apolcalypse will happen on the Fields of Armegeddon in Israel and that Jesus will come back during that battle.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 5:27pm
I don't have to spin or even be judicious in my critiques.
Exactly. You didn't run for office on the Democratic party ticket. You didn't even run for office as an Independent. You are just oceankat, guy on the internet.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 5:16pm
It's all a matter of opinion but I thought Obama was a barely adequate president. Especially considering what he was given. Democrats had a large majority of the house and a super majority in the senate. Even after he lost the super majority he still and 59 democratic votes. He was given so much power and he did almost nothing with it.
Obama was honest. He told us over and over he was the least partisan person he knew. He told us he would be a bipartisan president and he would always try to compromise. Perhaps that's what you wanted and I might want that too. But I posted time and time again in "08 that the republicans had no intention of compromising and his efforts would fail. And fail they did. Obama went into negotiations with a compromise and then compromised further to get one, just one republican vote. He bent over backwards and damn near kissed Collins ass begging her to vote for Obamacare. And he got none, not a single republican vote for a republican designed health care bill.
I could go on and on and on and I did during the '08 primary and for years during his presidency. Obama wasn't a great president. He was barely a good president. It's only that republicans are so bad that he looks acceptable.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 3:22pm
I was just presuming rmrd doesn't think of Obama as "barely adequate." He's always going on and on about being a true blue Dem and always supporting the party first and foremost. He's arguing the opposite here, very similar to a Bernie fan.
Myself, I wouldn't mind if there were 4 parties where all the left and right radicals are out in their own two little parties, see how many votes they really get then.Grownups left alone to govern in the other two. A purge. Free speech for all, see how many votes you get when you troll and throw verbal bombs.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 3:33pm
My comment was addressed to Flavius who thinks Obama was a great president second only to Lincoln. I too wouldn't mind if there was some way to have more parties. Ranked choice voting might give a better picture of split between and numbers of liberals, centrists, conservatives, and the far right. But you know you don't have to think like lulu or rmrd to be far left. You can be a left liberal and not troll or throw verbal bombs.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 3:47pm
Lincoln as President is pretty interesting - he introduce paper money, the income tax, opened up the West with the Homestead Act (including all the the Indian Wars that went with it...)
I still find it interesting several war-related issues people seem to support:
- he was elected by less than 40% of the vote (against 3 other candidates), but managed a runaway *majority* in electoral votes - we know that problem
- he was in office 1 month when he went to war and died before it was over, so certainly our biggest war president with almost 0 peacetime experience
- he supported total war, with total annihilation of civilian infrastructure by Grant & Sherman - not exactly PC nowadays
- he offered an Amendment on inauguration enshrining slavery as property and ensuring Southern states would continue to hold their slaves
- he decreed that Southern states had no right to secede (to break up the Union) for eternity, which rather flies in the face of Yugoslavian provinces seceding, Quebec & Catalonia voting on secession, Czechs & Slovaks splitting amicably, dividing South Sudan from Sudan, Scotland getting devolution of power from the UK, Algeria gaining independence, the partitioning of India, East Timor from Indonesia, and independence moments in east Libya and western Burma.
- he decreed that federal forts in seceding states still belonged to the US/North, setting a precedent for the same iffy position of the US holding on to Guantanamo, the Brits with Gibraltar, the Russians with Kaliningrad and now Crimea/the Sea of Azov...
- more Northern soldiers died than Southern, with a total of about 340,000 for the North & 620,000 dead in all.
- but of course did free the slaves in 1863 (though not border state slaves). Someone else then set up the 13_15th amendments for their continued freedom and rights.
Certainly a unique administration.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 4:45pm
Yeah maybe Lincoln was a reluctant supporter. Iĺl take it.
by Flavius on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 10:40pm
I think my point is that if Lincoln hadn't had the Civil War to jump into or freed the slaves 1 3/4 years into that war, we might think of him as a mediocre president, or he might have found another war, or based on the bank and tax changes and railroad and push out west might have been much better as a peacetime president.
It's hard to imagine any other president partially orchestrating the death of 640,000 of its citizens with the relative annihilation of 1/3 its land and considering him "the best of all time". Perhaps such is how war affects us, but I doubt if Wilson or FDR would be so chrished if that many body bags came home. Just saying. (and this what-if revisionary framing is a bit new for me - just riffing)
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 03/10/2019 - 3:08am
Great, we could have the Republicans joining with the Proud Boys Party to form a coalition, just like Netanyahu and his agreement to work with a far right party.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 6:32pm
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/10/2019 - 1:17am
it's not rocket science. Easy to say the right thing. Rep. Yvette Clark, Brooklyn, Afro-American. Video & text @ The Hill:
Dem rep says her constituents were 'very pained' by Omar comments
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2019 - 7:56pm
Ironically, here @ Snopes is an example of mysterious spinmeisters @ the time of Trump's inauguration trying to push the meme that Obama was secretly prejudiced in favor of Palestinians, that he supposedly sent them $221 million in funds that Congress had not approved just before leaving office. As if managing to convince people of that would hurt Dems or something? You couldn't make this stuff up.
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/10/2019 - 1:39am
Netanyahu made a deal with a racist party
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/24/world/middleeast/benjamin-netanyahu-otzma-yehudit-jewish-power.html
He says that Israel is an apartheid state.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/10/benjamin-netanyahu-says-israel-is-not-a-state-of-all-its-citizens
Omar is not the one who causes concern.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 03/11/2019 - 8:56am
Fox News’ Pirro
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/jeanine-pirro-ilhan-omar_n_5c852bc1e4b0d93616292486
The show remains on the air
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 03/11/2019 - 9:16am
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/16/2019 - 10:13pm
more on Judge Janine situation, with more nuance:
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/16/2019 - 10:26pm
and no surprise, guess who sees an opportunity to troll and distract with this little culture wars item?
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/17/2019 - 10:21am
Omar is not the reason we are not having a serious discussion about Israel and Palestinians. Before Omar, we were diverted by the anti-BDS movement which attacked free speech
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/9/18172826/bds-law-israel-boycott-states-explained
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 03/11/2019 - 11:47am
Here's what trolling tribal gets ya in the end: more anger and division where everybody becomes a tribal troll:
Chelsea Clinton Confronted at Vigil by Student Blaming Her ‘Rhetoric’ for NZ Mosque Shooting @ Mediaite, March 16
Normally I wouIdn't pay attention to such a story; I looked it up after I ran across this troll tweet:
Makes me think that what really drives the fervent opposition to AIPAC nuts is that AIPAC is smarter than to do dumb trolling. You can't win against them by going lowest common denominator.
I will never buy the argument: but but but trolling won Trump the presidency. He won the presidency via electoral college tricks and a majority of the population is still against him,I daresay a majority hates his trolling more than anything else about him.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/16/2019 - 1:36pm
Good repair job: Ilhan Omar: We must apply our universal values to all nations. Only then will we achieve peace.
Op-ed by Ilhan Omar @ WashingtonPost.com, March 17 at 8:01 PM
Will not be surprised if future tweets on foreign policy get more statesmanlike as well.
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/17/2019 - 11:43pm
I don’t see Netanyahu or AIPAC becoming more diplomatic.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 03/18/2019 - 9:59am