TPM Steakhouse

By Michael Wolraich on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 11:04am |

Josh Marshall: TPM has the most interested, engaged and knowledgable audience anywhere on the web. And that audience, you, have always been at the heart of our editorial model. It was reader tips and feedback that helped us break the story that won us the first top tier journalism award ever won by a web native news organization. So to build and nurture that core group of readers TPMPrime will feature a special members only discussion forum, free from trolls and flyby commenters. TPMPrime is your backstage pass to everything TPM. And I want you to join.

URL:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2012/09/introducing_tpmprime.php?ref=fpblg

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I used to beg Josh to do this years ago. I am glad they are finally implementing it. I think all serious sites should do this. I intend to join, even though I rarely comment at TPM anymore at all. I like their stuff and they are mostly pretty good at reporting. It is their answer to moderating their site.

by tmccarthy0 on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 11:13am

Unless it's prohibitively expensive, I'll probably join as well. Also seems like a decent way to interact with some of TPM's sources, which could generate ideas and content for Dag and other pursuits.

by Michael Maiello on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 12:40pm

destor, Per Josh today on TPM referencing this:

Just so we’re crystal clear: this is not a paywall and never will be. Everything you see here on TPM today will continue to be here free to everyone. That won’t ever change.

by Aunt Sam on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 1:19pm

Everything you see here on TPM today...

TPMPrime can't be seen on TPM today, so can't be assumed to be included in the "everything."

by Elusive Trope on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 3:19pm

Good point. But, I would hope that if there was a monetary expense involved he would be more up front about it in his intro invites. Now, it seems, all we can do is wait until it's clearer.

by Aunt Sam on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 3:50pm

It will absolutely, definitely, without a doubt, cost money. Got that from the primary source.

by Michael Maiello on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 5:14pm

primary source = a person who is speaking only with anonymity because he or she has not been given authority by Josh to speak to the public about the new offering?

by Elusive Trope on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 7:47pm

I'm sure everyone that responded to the survey got the e-mail (not that I'm special!) but it is certainly going to be a paid service. Sounds interesting, and if it isn't too much, I'll be joining too. Can't stand to miss anything.

by stillidealistic on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 11:06pm

$50

by wabby on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 2:49pm

I'd suggest to combine that new post with something he said in the first one:

We have to be as scrappy about building our revenue base as our reporters are at sleuthing out stories. And this is a critical part of not just building but diversifying our revenue base.

First, I want to emphasize the cryptic thing he has when he talks about meta that I mentioned elsewhere; in my experience there's almost always some difficulty figuring out what he really means.

That said, it's a real interesting thing to say; what could it mean?

$50 x let's say 50,000 members (just my guess at what expectations might be, out of 3-4 million monthly readers he says he has) means $2,500,000 per year not subject to the vagaries of advertising revenue heavily shifting according to peaks and vallleys of the size and demographics of the non-paying audience. Cash flow = lights, cable, internet and some salaries paid for the year. Less need to pander to hot or inflammatory stories that would get new eyeballs for the odd month when the money situation isn't looking bright?

And perhaps he's getting ready for after the election when he suspects large numbers of people who are interested in the kind of stuff he is putting out now will lose interest? In which case, advertising revenue will go way down.. He needs to shift to new audience type/ new kinds of income by then?

by artappraiser on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 5:02pm

Having just finished reading the second, it is apparent that Josh should stop getting business advice from friends at dinner parties and hire a decent business consultant to develop a plan, including pricing, and test its potential market. It does not have to be McKinsey or BCG but it should be strictly professional and not one where any friends or family work.

$50! You can get The Atlantic print and digital both plus 150 years of archives for half that!

by EmmaZahn on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 5:38pm

It just strikes me as goofy considering that most of TPM's stuff these days is moment-to-moment political fluff. Gee, a Republican somewhere said something stupid. Why would I pay $50 for that? Or publicly-available polling? Or opinion pieces by people already available free elsewhere? etc.

Now, I probably WOULD have paid $50 for a properly run Readers Blog. But they just kept bungling it, and after a dozen failures to "fix" it, and listening to his comments, Josh's disdain for the readers was pretty much visible running down the streets.

And then when the Ripper thing happened, and the Right-wing web sites attacked and tagged it all back to TPM, and rather than stand and fight, Josh - literally - just folded.

People can say what they want, but that was the timing, that was the event that did it. And even if he DID want to fold the Readers blogs up, which was his right, and understandable given the number of nutbars we had loose in there at times, to do so on the occasion of a bunch of unproven charges and smear-style links made by Right-wing sites - well, that's just appallingly bad politics, and appallingly bad PERSONAL politics.

I was actually ashamed of how he behaved there. And he should be as well.

So, I combine that personal failure with the failure to run the Readers section with the inability to ever say straight-out what the hell he's really after with the incessant desire to get off some clever quips and ... even though the Readers Blogs were a fun occasion for me to start blogging, I think I'd have to say no thanks to the TPM-Prime thingie, Josh.

by quinn esq on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 11:05pm

duh-duplicate

by EmmaZahn on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 5:47pm

I don't quite get how he's going to keep the trolls out if this is an open invitation, as it appears to be. How will this premium membership work?

by Ramona on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 1:48pm

I'm sure that the site will most likely be closely 'monitored' and I didn't get the sense that anyone other than those associated with and/or invited will be authoring any posts. (?) I have no doubt that any membership can and will be swiftly canceled if troll like participation is noted.

by Aunt Sam on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 2:57pm

One of the reasons people like to troll is that it's basically free entertainment. By charging at the gate, Josh probably figures that most of the trolliest folks will move on by to the free forums.

by Michael Maiello on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 5:16pm

But wait. Josh says it's not a pay wall. Except it's exclusive content that you will apparently have to pay for to get. Methinks Josh has been steeped in too much double-speak for his own good.

by DF on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 7:04pm

I thought it was pretty clear. Everything that is available today will still be available, for free. There will just be added content (like roundtables with newsmakers) that will be included in the premium package, and not available to the people who do not purchase it.

by stillidealistic on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 11:09pm

stilli, I didn't do survey - if you still have email, will you please forward it to me? Thanks.

by Aunt Sam on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 11:13pm

If your e-mail address hasn't changed, it should be there now!

by stillidealistic on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 2:09pm

I understand that. That is still, by definition, a pay wall that separates some content. There isn't even anything inherently wrong with that. I just don't see why Josh has to insist that it's not a pay wall.

by DF on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 1:19am

Well I don't know, this has been tried before. There's this site called, ah, lets see if I can remember, oh yeah, Talking Points Memo. It had an extremely active section with reader's blogs and lively discussion called the "cafe." The owner of that site made it very clear that his discussion section was losing money and was way to hard to moderate. If that dude, Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo, couldn't make money with his "cafe" and had to shut it down how is this guy at TPM going to make it work? Perhaps this guy at TPM has a different business model then the dude at Talking Points Memo. Or maybe this guy at TPM has a greater commitment to his readers than that other guy at Talking Points Memo.

by ocean-kat on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 2:41pm

Hahaha, okay kat, that made me laugh. It's true there is some irony here! Although I am sure he won't be allowing us to blog again. I think that's finished.

by tmccarthy0 on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 3:02pm

If that dude, Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo, couldn't make money with his "cafe" and had to shut it down how is this guy at TPM going to make it work?

TPM Prime will require a subscription.

by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 6:45pm

So TPM Today will be free (not behind a paywall) but TPM Prime will require a paid subscription? Why isn't he saying that?

by Ramona on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 6:56pm

You mean kinda like this ?

Introducing POLITICO Pro
By POLITICO STAFF | 11/15/10 5:30 AM EST Updated: 11/15/10 7:11 AM EST

Nearly four years ago, POLITICO launched with a team of about 40 journalists and went on to change the game of political journalism.

Now, POLITICO formally announces its plans to take a team of the same size and launch a new product in February 2011, with similarly large ambitions: POLITICO Pro, a subscription service providing highly detailed, rapid-fire reporting on the politics of energy, technology and health care.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45113.html#ixzz27oII2hAI

BTW, by June 2012, PoliticoPro was successful enough to expand a lot, hiring 20 more reporters and editors and 20 more business employees.

Mho, and I think it's real strange to this day, Josh Marshall has never been able to be clear about any announcements about his site, to the point where it sounds sometimes like he's intentionally trying to obfuscate, hedge his bets, or something like that,things like politicians do. I'm usually on the side of this being something like a writer's block when it comes to this kind of topic, but I admit that at times during the years of using his site, I got thinking conspiratorial about it because it would get so bad. And I know other normally rational people thought the same way at times.

That he has rarely allowed public comments on his own writing, and clearly prefers private email exchanges that he can filter, and shares his mail only when he feels appropriate, is related, I think. First it reminds me of journalists that glamorize ye olde Woodward/Bernstein/Watergate "The Scoop," and still wanna be that, note that the whole muckraker meme is a favorite of his.

What I see between the lines when he says he appreciates his readers: I appreciate the power that a lot of lowest common denominator readers give me, and because of that, I don't want to lose them. But I prefer to interact with the elites, with the ones I like, and against the ones I don't. And I like getting insider tips from elites who need to remain anonymous.

Don't forget that he was for quite a few years a one-man operation without comments, trying to break into the DC power scene and trying to get hot tips from contacts via email. Anonymous sources, I believe they are called.

by artappraiser on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 8:06pm

I was also struck by how opaque the explanation was. I assumed it was because they haven't figure out how exactly it's going to work, but then why announce it now?

My take is that it's basically a paid version of the Cafe with some ebook features thrown in. That is, you pay for the privilege of commenting (and maybe blogging) in return for better service, more interaction, and fewer trolls.

by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 9:09pm

Politico Pro is $3,295 a year, and a success:

Politico Pro, one year in: A premium pricetag, a tight focus, and a business success
Around one-third of Politico’s newsroom is dedicated to Pro, its $3,295-a-year premium product for Hill staffers, lobbyists, and others who need policy news on their BlackBerry — now.

Nieman Journalism Lab, April 17, 2012, 10:30 a.m.

[.....]

about one-third of Pro subscribers are government workers.

“That ranges from Capitol Hill offices — members of Congress and senators’ offices — to government agencies to state and local municipalities,” King said. “Roughly another third are in the general public policy space — trade associations and those organizations that cover general policy, the think-tank types of organizations, or those who specifically cover energy policy.”

The other third is “everybody else,” King says.

Pro executives won’t publicly share subscription numbers, but just past the one-year mark, King says the figures “very quickly exceeded the expectations of where we thought we would be.” She says the number of subscribers has tripled since February 2011, and renewals “overwhelmingly” surpassed market-based predictions of 85 to 90 percent. As Politico’s Jim VandeHei and John Harris wrote in a staff memo earlier this month: [.....]

After finding that, I went back to the New York Times article I linked to above and re-read. It implies that the 20 new reporters and 20 new business side employees were hired just to handle the expansion into military and economics policy. Kind of amazing numbers.

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 1:55pm

And if I were Josh Marshall, I would be thinking about what Politico "regular" is doing everyday, because they are covering virtually all the same stories that I am covering; with many readers are bouncing back and forth between TPM and Politico, checking to see if one has info on a story that the other doesn't have. Some of my most loyal fans sending me links from Politico saying "did you see this?" and tasty bits from Politico Pro.

I would be surprised if TPM doesn't have a subscription to Politico Pro. And now likewise he is tyring offering something a bit different? "Free of trolls" but more interactive and priced for a much bigger audience?

Is it basically targeting the lowly Dilberts on political staffs and at government offices and lobbying firms who have more time to "talk" and docudump dive while at work?

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 2:18pm

I should probably hold my tongue but I really need to reply to this.

TPM started out with no comments because there was no way to create comments. From 2000 to 2003 it was hand coded each post. In the first years all the easy to set up systems for setting up blogs didn't exist. So I did it by hand. The idea that I didn't have comments because I wanted to "break into the DC power scene" is simply bizarre.

Once comments were easy to set up, I kept it without comments, yes, precisely because I grew to value the interaction via email. And that's, yes, because what's most valuable to me is new information, things I didn't know. New information I can use. I don't want to lose that because I think it makes the site much better at reporting news, facts.

You say I share my email only when it suits me. Actually I've had the same email conspicuously posted at the top of the site for 12 years.

How this is tied to wanting to cater to elites is just dumbfounding. Quite the contrary, it's about finding information from everyone. But it is true that people who have information to pass on usually want to be anonymous. Again, fail to see what is wrong with that.

I know I sound a tad defensive on this. But it's surreal to me how much antipathy and conspiracy thinking people can gin up from things that are really quite mundane. What would the conspiracy be?

by Josh Marshall (not verified) on Tue, 10/09/2012 - 1:00pm

If I'm reading this right, you're arguing that "people who have information to pass on usually want to be anonymous."

And yet... you too seem to wish to pass information on. While... not being anonymous.

Which kinda creeps me out. In fact, the only LOGICAL explanation for this inconsistency is that you're hiding something.

And yes, it was important to put the word LOGICAL up in all caps. As well as the word hiding in bold.

Also, if you're disagreeing with ArtAppraiser, let me just say that I'm pretty much gonna agree with you, because she and I have been fighting lately, and that's how I roll - the enemy of my enemy and all that.

Other than that, know any good fish places in Manhattan?

P.S. Maybe wanna tell Axelrod to turn up Barack's downers just a notch. Or maybe, turn the uppers up a bit more? Like maybe to somewhere North of inanimate? Cause ummmmm, otherwise, looks pretty much like dude's asleep at the wheel.

by Qnonymous (not verified) on Tue, 10/09/2012 - 8:05pm

Too bad he did not try that with the original Cafe. I would have paid for a reasonable subscription to it to reimburse its illustrious guests for the abuse they often suffered. :D

I never have cared that much for Talking Points Memo and not at all for Muckraker so doubt I would subscribe to Prime if its emphasis is the same unless it is extremely cheap.

by EmmaZahn on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 7:15pm

I don't think it would have gone over well if he'd started charging for what people had previously been doing for free. Not that closing the Cafe went over well either.

by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 9:12pm

Do you mean a paid subscription? Or will it be an invitation-only buffet? Maybe it's one of those clubs where one's pedigree counts more than one's pocketbook?

by erica20 on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 6:08pm

One way he may limit the trolls is by creating a waiting period (such as 7 days) before comments are allowed. This would limit someone who stumbles by the site to just log on and throw up a flame or spam. It would explain why they signing up on the 1st but won't be active until the 15th.

by Elusive Trope on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 3:15pm

Interesting. I am curious about who from the old Cafe will be approved for membership and who will be invited to post. I miss the original Cafe's variety and depth. I hope Josh brings that back. It would be nice if he included reader blogs even if they are moderated. Every news organization needs its Letters to the Editor.

by EmmaZahn on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 3:42pm

What a turd. Got money from Marc Andreesen, thought he'd hit a triple. Screwed his brand by becoming an Obama hack (shut Greg Sargent down even). Poor guy, too much traffic trashing his crappy software so had to shut down readers but not his best friends who generate 3 whole comments a day. But readers are #1 with him.Such arrgance. Once TPMMucraker was a gem. But he's too clever by half.

by Anonymous pp (not verified) on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 5:09pm

If memory serves, last time we interacted with Josh, we got the other end of the Angus.

by quinn esq on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 5:13pm

...

by quinn esq on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 6:15pm

TPM is on its way to becoming the CNN of the web. When CNN started out, no one was really doing what they did. Their coverage of the Gulf War still stands out. However, over time CNN has been dying a slow death in the relentless pursuit of style over substance. Ever more technological gimmicks, gimmicky bit pieces that don't really matter, etc. It's been unwatchable for quite some time.

TPM started out organically on the web back at a time when you had to look at people like Drudge to find rivals. Except TPM went beyond simply being a political web tabloid. They actually did some original reporting. And they were doing it precisely at a time when traditional outfits, like the NYT, were suffering a series of embarrassments (I'm lookin' at you, Judy Miller). As Josh points out, TPM even won a prestigious award for that. It helped bring Yglesias, Kurtz, Sargent and others to the fore. Genghis cut his teeth so good there, he gnashed himself out a book deal.

Josh should have been proud of that. Maybe he is, but he still shut it down. Since then, TPM keeps going more and more into the realm of horse race gossip. Obivously there's a big demand for that, but does that happen at the expense of real reporting with value beyond mere entertainment? When was the last time they broke a story that really mattered? I know that it isn't easy, but it's hard to see that there's even any focus on serious stories, of which there are plenty. Yes, <insert name here>-(R) is an assclown. We know this. Where's the substance?

Maybe this new venture will prove worthwhile, but right now it looks like another four years of Obama and TPM will probably have completely devolved into a political gossip-based iPhone app. A slightly left of center Politico with a touch screen interface.

by DF on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 7:28pm

Josh was helpful to me during the process and featured Blowing Smoke at the old book club. As you may recall, he was also supportive when we founded dagblog, and he featured one of A-man's dag posts on TPM's front page in the early days. When he closed down the Cafe, he dedicated tech resources to helping us migrate people's Cafe posts to dag. So I have a fair amount of appreciation for Josh's willingness to support his walk-ons (even when they walked out).

But your point is well-taken. TPM's audience has been slowly receding since 2008.

by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 9:24pm

TPM's audience has been slowly receding since 2008

I don't know how much you can use that to judge whether someone's successful if that someone wants to restrict coverage to politics. I'm just totally practicing without a license here, judging that suspicion on checking out this chart for Real Clear Politics for 2005-2012 right after I checked out your link.

Thanks for the fun new tool, I had no idea you could use Google Trends that way!

After looking at just those two charts, I already have other thoughts about judging success--like how izzit Marshall always seems to roll out beta software changes right before he's expecting a spike in audience?

by artappraiser on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 9:43pm

I just want to issue a correction. According to Josh, TPM's audience is way up since 2008.

Google seems to have changed its trend tool since I put up the link, and the new version no longer includes site traffic. Maybe that's because it didn't work very well.

by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 10/09/2012 - 3:53pm

Yes, <insert name here>-(R) is an assclown.

WHAT??! SERIOUSLY?? DETAILS! INQUIRING MINDS! ALSO, DECLINING MIMES!

Yep. That's them.

by quinn esq on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 12:03am

I have no idea where to put these thoughts, so forgive me.

I take the link and go and 'sign up' and I get these spam tests?

Anyway I lose because I never can read those spam tests.

An hour later I get emails from TPM saying all is right with the world.

hahahahahaha

By the way I had the same probs with your site recently but it took my comments anyway.

I still like the old days when you would serve me Cocoa Puffs at three AM. haahahahah

by Richard Day on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 1:58am

the most interested, engaged and knowledgable audience anywhere

First off, he misspelled knowledgeable, so I don't what that says about his assessment about his audience.

And everytime I have gone to the site, and looked at the comments to an article, it has been just the same one liners of ideological reductionism (which has its place on any political blog). I've never seen the nuanced arguments that one sees here on a regular basis.

I'll take dagblog's audience over TPM's anyday.

by Elusive Trope on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 7:58pm

He invented TPMCafe in 2004/2005, soliticing donors for it, explaining that he hated the lowest common denominator type of discussion that was available in political discussion forums (clearly referring to Daily Kos without saying it) and figured others felt the same way. (I think it is important to note that he chose creating separate subsite, with new posters like Yglesias and the "America Abroad" group, to do this instead of allowing comments on his own posts or allowing other posters on the Talking Points Memo home page.)

He participated for only a few months, really, (including linking to a few reader blogs on the front page,) and then drifted away, always hiring someone to handle the editing and getting of contributors, and only returning to talk about how the discourse level had deteriorated there during the 2006 Lebanon war. It's pretty clear looking back, and knowing more about his views now, that that was what was being said personally embarassed him and perhaps even angered him.

Through many iterations and failures of software after that he would attend for some commenting and explaining to some, but never post where everyone could see. Now looking back, I don't think he liked "everyone" who ended up there and didn't want to have to deal with them.

When he united the whole site under one software in 2008 (and most of youse started blogging there,) what it was really was a takeover of the TPMCafe reader blogs by a flood of newly blogging commenters from TPMElection Central, most of whom hadn't even realized TPMCafe had been there all along. And he became very interested again for a few months, said he was planning on featuring the best reader blogs on the front page. Getting the software to work was a nightmare, he did get involved in apologia on that for a while, but overall he drifted away from all of it in short order, after falling in love with only a couple of blogs by only a couple of writers, like "Fly on the Wall."

Looking back now on all of my experiences there, and what he's doing now, I think that he doesn't like long, involved discussions (I once thought he might and just not have time for them,) and likes the short, quippy and snarky input. But he wants elite quality short quippy and snarky input.

by artappraiser on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 8:42pm

But he wants elite quality short quippy and snarky input.

Probably the best comment about Josh and the whole TPM cafe debacle.

The commenters are part of the team, but some peanut gallery that reinforce the particular article's validity. God forbid if someone might be not completely on board.

I am an Obama / Democrat support (SURPRISE!), but I relish those who will challenge me. And I hope they go into as much detail as to why they think I am wrong. This is whay pushes the political discourse forward (and by the way the tag line for the Obama campaign is Forward, but that is just one of those serendipity moments.)

by Elusive Trope on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 8:46pm

Another memory came back about right before he united the whole site under one software in early 2008. The TPM Election Central section had, at the time, the same kind of commenting you see on TPM now, very much the same. And it was a much much bigger group of commenters than the little group of us at the Cafe.

At TPMCafe, we liked long policy discussions and similar--similar happened to included a few on about how awful the Election Central commenting was, how they only cared about breaking politics minutae, how much they used insults, how it was all nasty quips, etc.

There was even one TPMCafe member with a quirky sense of humor, cscs was his user name, who ventured over there to tease them about their quippy vitriol and then report back to us at TPMCafe to discuss (he had a style very similar to our Quinn here in some ways.)

And then Josh put "blog now" on their site with their blogs overtaking TPMCafe, and at the same time the tracking ability was lost so we couldn't work around the flood of posts and talk about other stuff like we used to at TPMCafe

We were participating under the mistaken belief that he wanted a discussion forum for complex discussions because he didn't like Daily Kos. That was wrong; he clearly likes the fast moving stuff and the quips as responses. The only time he needed long term, long form, was in like trying to figure out the Valerie Plame case. And he preferred the excitement of day-to-day developments there, too, as well as the private email sources.

by artappraiser on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 9:07pm

We can't know what went on in Josh's mind but this seems likely. You were at TPM the longest of anyone I know and your analysis of it has always seemed the most spot on. If I wanted short snarky comments I can get that for free almost everywhere on the internet. Extended discussion from knowledgeable and intelligent people is much harder to find. Many sites seem to actively discourage it by the format they choose for commenting.

Of course there was a lot of dross in the comments at the cafe but there were enough great comments it was worth wading through it. Many times some of the reader comments were better written and argued then the original blog, whether another reader of one of Josh's invited or regular bloggers.

I'd have paid to continue the cafe and several others said the same as Josh was shutting it down. Getting people to pay for anything on the internet is always hard so I guess it probably wouldn't have worked anyway. But it seems pretty clear that he didn't value what was happening at the cafe or even the extended discussions when they happened on muckraker, so its unlikely he'll be recreating it with Prime. So I can't see what I'd be paying for that has value for me.

by ocean-kat on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 3:28pm

Josh doesn't get around much does he ? He really needs to get out more, meat other people, go to a play or something.

Get enlightened.

by cmaukonen on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 8:07pm

meat other people? i thought he was a vegan.

by Elusive Trope on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 8:48pm

Eliot said it this way:

"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."

by moat on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 8:08pm

And former TPMCafe participants say:

Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

For I have known them all already, known them all;
Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons, 50
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
I know the voices dying with a dying fall
Beneath the music from a farther room.
So how should I presume?

by Elusive Trope on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 8:54pm

Yes, Mr. Trope:

That sort of thing.

by moat on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 9:51pm

"TPM has the most interested, engaged and knowledgable audience anywhere on the web."

Well, if that's true, it's only because Josh couldn't frustrate some of the good ones until they went away, and because we ARE talking about the Internet here.... I know he had a lot going on, and it's hard to do the cat-herding involved in having a left-leaning web site, especially one that requires as much technology as that one did. He's done some amazing things, but I haven't been all that crazy about TPM for awhile. Curious about his real reasons for doing this.

A better model for a special-membership site would be to let people "earn" points for commenting, moderating, providing content, etc.....

by erica20 on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 8:16pm

Good comment.

3 points.

by quinn esq on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 1:29pm

I can't wait to redeem them. Maybe I can earn the chance to be frustrated by something written by Dean Baker!

by erica20 on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 1:43pm

BTW thanks for nuthin', you guys--now I am SO craving a great big T-Bone grilled up medium-rare and dripping juice. Seriously.

No jokes, please.

by erica20 on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 8:21pm

[see comment to cmaukonen above :P]

by Elusive Trope on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 8:50pm

I think I found TPM Cafe in the spring of 2009, long after the elections, so I missed all the hoopla (but heard about it plenty). I loved the Cafe patrons and was saddened to see the Cafe closed, but when we all got a second chance here at dag I found I liked it here even better.

I doubt I would pay to comment on TPM, and I'm still angry that he threw out all of our posts and comments without so much as a "Heave HO, there you go", but I'll ever be grateful for the chance to post there. I was brand new to political blogging and it was the perfect place to learn how to write pieces honestly and accurately. (Because. . .or else!)

So I have mixed feelings about TPM, but will probably not get involved there. I have to say, I'm not crazy about Josh Marshall and that sort of thing is important to me.

by Ramona on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 9:06pm

Much to the consternstion of Q, it was TPM that I got involved into political commenting and blogging back in 2008. So no matter what happened later, where TPM is now, and no matter where it goes, there is a special thank you to TPM for getting me into the fray and to letting me know such people like Mr Day who introduced me to greatest song EVER

And now a break to gather my thoughts

by Elusive Trope on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 9:28pm

You keep stealing my song. hahahahah

You are nothing but a Trope. hahahahaha

God I love this song!

by Richard Day on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 2:02am

ok - with a brreaher...thank you to Josh for creating a place for a community to develop. But once developed he showed he didn't care about it. It didn't drive his bottom SO LIKE MITT ROMNEY, he tossed aside. And now he wants us to pay for privilege to comment positively to his articles and the people he chooses to blog....ok now the more i think about it...screw you Josh,.

by Elusive Trope on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 9:41pm

by Elusive Trope on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 9:40pm

Gee, now I'm getting nostalgic thinkin' about the ol' times at the Cafe.

One way I think it was different is that all of us 'regulars' really valued and appreciated it.

And of course, since it's election time again, I guess it's to be expected that we seem to be immersed in political blogs and discussions, but it did make me remember, as some have pointed out, there was great diversity. Some truly wonderful, interesting and even poignant posts.

I remember too that there was 'talk' at one point about how it was in a sense like a real cafe where you could meet and greet, talk with your friends - interact with such a variety of people. Camaraderie, if you will. There was even an after hours open thread sometimes for late night musings and tales.

There were real get togethers - one was in NY. Virtual friends actually met, there was even an engagement.

I'm not sure that, at least for me, dag has the same type of environment/feeling. much less personal and not much silly, fun banter back and forth.

But, like Ramona, I will always be grateful for the opportunity - and sure will always remember it fondly. It was an enriching experience.

by Aunt Sam on Fri, 09/28/2012 - 10:57pm

Dag simply isn't large enough or active enough yet. That may come in the future. From my point of view it has a good foundation. It just needs more people to be a vibrant internet community.

by ocean-kat on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 3:37pm

I wrote this earlier today about some of my feelings about the TPM experience. I feel gratitude to Josh for the site that brought together an experience with exceptional thinkers but the destruction of the community there and its history was not appreciated. Today questions linger without answers.

Did Josh cleaned house because of the money or because he did not agree with what was being said. Our criticism, to the point of almost if not calling “The Americans Abroad” blogers delusional (Neocons are you know) may have been a thorn in his side. I read an interview on the web with him long ago and far far away that indicated that people believed he agreed with the blogers on his site and he indicated he did not. It could have been the Americans Abroad crowd but I think it was us.

The unease with Josh is that he stopped giving his insights that attracted many to the site. Remember he said it was unfair to those he corresponded to with his emails to post on the site himself. Maybe someone can remember the exact way it was posted. Are the email contacts more valued than the traffic such insights could bring? Am I off track here?

by Thinking on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 12:26am

Hi Thinking,

Nice to know you lurk here. I think you're thinking along the same general lines I was thinking in the two comments I wrote in response to Trope above. I just think your time lines might make it confusing, because "America Abroad" was basically long gone by the time of the Obama/Clinton primaries when most people here at Dag joined TPMCafe.

But it all fits, you're on the right track. Here's how, and also where I disagree:

First, on your label on the America Abroad people, it should be neo-liberals, not neo-cons, and that's important, because some of those people went on to be Obama campaign advisors, others into the Obama administration. Marie Slaughter at the State Dept for example. Outside of them, he had others like Jared Bernstein, who went to Obama campaign and then to work as Vice-President Biden's advisor. One of the early tabs was for Professor Elizabeth Warren and her students on the Middle Class, we all know what she did and is doing.

He also used to have House Reps from time to time post from time at "Table for One," they were all Dems but mostly not lefties (excepting maybe Jerry Nadler could be called one.) and others higher up, like John Kerry

A columnist like Todd Gitlin, no longer a lefty protestor but a NY journalist professor trying to explain how lefty protestin like he did was a big mistake, and writing books on "big tent" politics.

Everyone invited (except for Norquist one time, which was Andrew Golis' idea,) was in a centrist circle, a circle surrounding dead center, with a upper West Side New York flavor to it but the socialist stuff left out. Even most of the book club authors. People invited from more left The Nation circle weren't the political writers, only the more cultural ones like Katha Pollitt.

He didn't mind disagreement, he had Larry Johnson and MJ Rosenberg both.

Where I think you're right: in the pre-Obama-run era, he was embarassed at the long lefty rants and discussions and the insults hurled at all these people, probably found most of the discussion puerile and embarassing in the face of these people he invited, his elite friends and acquaintances

BUT he didn't shut down the Cafe after they slowly flitted away to work with Obama or just because they got tired of it. That's where your suggestions get confused.

Instead, he opened easy blogging then to the thousands participating on TPM Election Central, just in time for the primaries heating up, and had their blogs go to the TPM Cafe site. Promoted that. It was like remaking TPMCafe. And he put Andrew Golis in charge and wanted to see lots of hot action on topic of the campaign.

Then, he seemed to nearly as quickly disappointed at what that became, at least definitely lost interest pretty quick! Even though the people there then mostly weren't lefties, they were mostly Obama supporters, passionate ones too. As the election wound things up, lots of those quit blogging, and he was left with a small group of people that were basically socializing politically on things of little interest to him, not "TPM brand" stuff, not like his friends and associates and employees, and probably seeming little different from Daily Kos people to him. And it was costing him staff hours.

I do not think it's ever been about making big money with him. Making enough to pay the bills and hire more people, that's all. Being proud of it is very important. Affecting politics in this country, probably even more important to him. So he's got to keep the audience large. But he craves the elite political talk.

And he doesn't want to follow Obama's post-partisan theories, that's very clear to me by his editing/managing of the TPM site, he likes to investigate the dirt in politics but especially to keep honing in on all the right wingers, including right wing hate groups but also any conservatives.

Other than that, I think a bunch of Obama type people is what he is looking for to hang with. I really mean people like Obama politically and intellectually and personality wise, too. Is it a coincidence that a Senator Obama once told a New York Magazine reporter that he wasn't impressed with Daily Kos, that it was all very much what he would expect and he likes to be surprised? I dunno... it's not easy being surprised by hanging with a bunch of elites that all are very close in political preferences, either....

I personally actually wouldn't mind using a site with such a concept, after all, I came to TPMCafe looking for better than I had been participating at, wanted more elite writing and discusssion, and I also have a lot of centrist leanings on many things, and know how to go elsewhere for other views. But I ain't trying to run a news site built to a powerhouse size that can affect things politically.

by artappraiser on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 2:31am

Interesting. I kept waiting for him to come up w a new concept post-election. Seemed there was nothing there - lots of Obama love but no real direction.Big letdown. Would have thought ACA etc would have been great for serious policy talks. But it never got serious.

by Anonymous pp (not verified) on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 11:40am

Elizabeth Warren was a real breath of fresh air on the site. I wish she had been able to do more.

by erica20 on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 1:48pm

Artappraiser good to say hi

If there was a historian for the site I would say you would be the person to go to. I remember the requests and the non responses for small changes such as what was expected of participants when registering to post on the site.

I did not mean to brush all with my comments about the cons. The point was that Anne-Marie Slaughter who ran the Princeton Project sure seemed to qualify as a Neocon. http://www.princeton.edu/~ppns/report/FinalReport.pdf excuse the raw link. This is a PDF produced by the project.

I do miss the participants, the discussions and the quality of the ideas and insight.

by Thinking on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 10:20am

I was attracted to TPM Cafe because it took shape during the intense days of the post-9/11 aftermath, the Iraq War, the GWOT and the nearly continuous discussions of foreign policy and national security issues that were going on between 2001 and 2008. The regular posters were very highly-placed foreign policy insiders such as Anne-Marie Slaughter, Ivo Daalder, John Ikenberry, Steve Clemons, many of whom were the people who ran the Democratic Party's foreign policy idea factory, some of whom also posted at Democracy Arsenal. They also had posts by some of the hawkish "Truman Democrats" who were trying to build a more conservative Democratic Party foreign policy consensus. I appreciated the opportunity to comment on their posts so they could all get a piece of my mind, and harbored the illusion that by interacting with these people directly, we could even influence national policy. I put a lot of effort into trying to formulate arguments in the language they spoke, and several of the posters interacted frequently with the comments. Of course, while we were trying to influence them, I think their perspective was that they were there to educate us by bringing the tablets down from on high.

I have pretty much checked out of that whole scene, and gave up reading and commenting on the foreign policy blogs a few years ago. While it was nice having the opportunity to blow off some steam, it was probably foolish to think that popular input could have much of an influence on foreign policy beyond some cosmetic adjustments to rhetoric.

I never cared much for the partisan political aspect of TPM Cafe, or for most of the writers who wrote there. Josh Marshall's intellectual circle and outlook are just not where my own head is at, and so I was always in an antagonistic, argumentative mode.

by Dan Kervick on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 7:40pm

I think people who were mostly interested in "America Abroad" extrapolate from the "drive-by and dump a post" nature of many of those entries that all the others were the same. But it wasn't true across the board.. Actually, many of the "partisan political" columnists did interact with commenters when their time allowed-some of them to very bad effect, like Larry Johnson and MJ Rosenberg--but others that immediately come to mind, from across different periods: Todd Gitlin, Ed Kilgore, Ken Baer, Jared Bernstein, Jim Sleeper, Reed Hundt, Maggie Mahar (extremely so in her case,) Michael Berube, Rotwang, Steve Clemons, Amanda Marcotte, Katha Pollitt.....

The "America Abroad" people started out like a table discussion, with them talking to each other responding on topic each in a new post. Commenters were intended to be the peanut gallery, they were interacting "amongst themselves." This may be the model Marshall is thinking on now, just guessing from the cryptic code. (That blog tradtion of responding to each other in new blog posts always frustrated me, it happened mostly because the cross-linking required grew blogging audiences, but it was a poor way to discuss things, especially since so many good software methods to have comments discussions were being invented.)

At the beginning there were also more non-poliltical contributors like a reporter working in France, and during Katrina there was a full section of invited contributors from New Orleans

One funny related thing I remember: Yglesias, who didn't stay long, didn't interact much, but at the beginning he was rating all the comments on this thread until he was apparently told to stop. I remember him saying on one of his own later blogs that he reads almost all the comments on his posts.

by artappraiser on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 11:16pm

Here's one on the international beat that didn't stay long; I don't even remember her posting:

Now at TPM Cafe!

Posted by Helena Cobban
June 19, 2009 10:15 AM EST | Link
Filed in Writing and publishing

Big thanks to Josh Marshall and his colleagues at Talking Points Memo, who recently invited me to join the roster of contributors to their excellent discussion forum, TPM Cafe. My first contribution there is this one.

by artappraiser on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 11:33pm

That stuff all seems like a lifetime ago now.

by Dan Kervick on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 11:46pm

Some may remember the Whiskey Bar days with Billmon, and Kevin Drum's old site. The Whiskey Bar offered great commentary, and I forget when it closed down, but TPM definitely helped fill that space and expanded it.

Like others, I found my identity as a writer by blogging and commenting at TPM. And so, like others, I'm grateful to Josh for providing the site at a time when no one else was doing anything like it.

We really needed a site like TPM: remember the time between Sept. 11 and the Iraq invasion in 2003, when a person couldn't provide a decent piece of political analysis without being practically called a traitor? The TPM community really helped me figure out what I believed and how to express myself to the few people who were willing to listen. By promoting those types of conversations at a high-profile level, Josh performed an amazing public service. And I think the site's work on the AG scandal was a major nail in the coffin for the Bush/Cheney administration. Huge.

At the same time, Josh had some blind spots. He would have done himself a favor by bringing his most prolific and insightful bloggers into the fold, instead of trying to ignore it when they ran rings around his guests. And it was frustrating when guest bloggers didn't check back in to interact with the community. Dag does a much better job on this. Josh was also pretty stuck on his center-left viewpoint. He had a hard time with perspectives that veered hard in one direction or the other. He sometimes seemed strangely threatened by alternative viewpoints, especially if they were well-presented.

More important, I think Josh was overwhelmed and frustrated by daily spam attacks and constant tech changes. He seemed vulnerable to technology vendors offering the next big thing, which was supposed to make sign-in easy and keep spam out. Of course, the next big thing never was quite as great as hoped. And, I remember a lot of pretty mean-spirited criticism from the bloggers in the vein of "it's so easy to run a web site," which it isn't. To be fair, he didn't deserve that.

Another big problem, especially as the site got larger, was anonymity. Many posters wanted it, and I don't think Josh ever fully understood why it was so darn important to them. (I always wondered if perhaps he was pressured by the authorities to be able to provide names and identifying information if necessary.)

Ultimately, Josh made the same mistake that parties often make--he failed to fully engage with his most passionate supporters, and it ended up affecting how his less passionate supporters experienced the site. (I still believe that this is the single reason the Democratic party did so poorly in the 2010 elections--dampening the enthusiasm of the people who would be willing to work hard and sing your praises to the masses is almost never a successful strategy.) I think that once Josh closed down the Cafe, the site got a lot less personal and it lost some of its intellectual fire, which showed all over the site. I found it kind of dull, and the comments were short and predictable in a way that they weren't when the Cafe was in operation. Many of us tried to convince Josh that keeping the Cafe in some form was important to the well-being of the whole, but he just didn't seem that interested.

So it goes. I've started going back to TPM more often lately, for election information, but I probably won't join TPM Prime--not because I'm not interested, but because I'm doing other things. I really can't even afford the time to hang out at Dag these days. If TPM Prime turns out to be fantastic, I might reconsider but I'm not interested in paying to get in on the ground floor, as it were.

I think if Josh really wants TPM Prime to succeed, he needs to offer some scholarships, rather than make his best and brightest pay for the privilege of saying what they can say for free elsewhere. And he'd need to demand that his elite commenters really engage with the less well-known or anonymous commenters so that everybody feels like they're on equal footing. But I bet it won't work that way--my guess is that he'll end up with people paying for the privilege of saying dumb stuff in response to elite writers who will zoom in, drop a post, and not check back until it's time for their next word-dump....

Now that I think of it, his best shot would be to ask Dag to run the thing.

by erica20 on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 1:38pm

I was surprised a few weeks ago when a post from Billmon's DailyKos diary popped up in my reader. Apparently, he was not able to resist commenting on Eastwood's RNC performance: Dotty Harry. Since then, he has posted a few more. They are not really like his old rambles but he still has a good writing style.

Kevin Drum still writes well, too. I actually prefer his style and perspective. I followed him from Washington Monthly to Mother Jones. Here's his link if you do not already have it.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum

by EmmaZahn on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 3:09pm

Emma, thanks for the hint on billmon--I have never been able to make heads or tails of daily kos but if billmon is there it's a different matter.

I can't remember now why I drifted away from Kevin Drum, seems to me maybe he was slow to understand on some of the Afghanistan/Iraq stuff.

by erica20 on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 6:23pm

What's that? Highly-paid bloggers who do drive-by "word dumps?"

Hmmmmm. Makes me wonder if Josh'll add in some new kind of rating system for their efforts.

Like.....

Oh c'mon, people.

No WAY I can resist that.

by quinn esq on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 7:23pm

I admit I dropped that one in your lap. So to speak.

by erica20 on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 10:41am

I did visit Whiskey Bar from time to time, mostly because people at the forum I was at during the height of the Iraq story would link to him often, ala "see Blilmon, he's got the truth to power on the latest, it's brilliant!" I didn't usually like it, though, but almost always came away imagining: this is an alcoholic writer of considerable talent who is in a deep depression because he ruined his career with his alcoholism, is very bitter about that, and it effects his judgment, and when he drinks at night, he blogs and rants his rage in general. And a lot of the commenting I saw reminded me of people wishing they could live in Weimar Germany and listen to people like Billmon read poetry in a bar. And I would then come away depressed.

by artappraiser on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 11:30pm

Like many of you, I began my "blogging career" at TPM. I became absolutely obsessed with politics there, and thanks to most of you who were there at the time, I learned a LOT about constructing a rational argument, defending it, and learning from opposing points of view. It is a time I will never forget.

I also remember how helpful Josh was at shifting our blogs over here.

One thing I'm remembering (haven't seen it mentioned, so I apologize if I'm duplicating) is that the demise of the TPM reader blogs came at the time when Chris was accused of blowing up someone's office? I remember the FBI becoming involved, and although I don't remember Josh saying it, I always thought his attorneys must have come unglued and encouraged him strongly to not be hosting the reader blogs any more for liability reasons.

by stillidealistic on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 2:26pm

Wait a minute. . .what?

One thing I'm remembering (haven't seen it mentioned, so I apologize if I'm duplicating) is that the demise of the TPM reader blogs came at the time when Chris was accused of blowing up someone's office?

by Ramona on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 4:34pm

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2010/08/kaboom-tpm-muckraker-admits-thei...

by ocean-kat on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 5:13pm

Thanks for that Ocean Kitty. I never saw that article! That was a weird time. Chris kept calling and wanting to talk, and I was so freaked out by the FBI involvement that I wanted to chat by e-mail so I would be able to prove I wasn't in on it...Anyway, I was pretty sure then, and continue to think that that episode was the straw that broke the camel's back w/ the reader blogs...

We were pretty unruly kids at times. Not surprised dad wanted to put us up for adoption, and am very grateful Dag was willing to be our new guardians!

by stillidealistic on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 8:55pm

No, I don't think we were unruly. The cafe is just one more example of what happens on unmoderated blogs. Its not just about the 5% of the people who troll. Its about how 50% of the good people react to them and get sucked in. Its so hard to ignore the most inflammatory comment and just respond to the serious comments. The inflammatory comment gets people angry and draws a response. It takes an incredibly strong person to resist that. It can quickly spiral out of control and get worse and worse and worse.

There were some of the best discussions I've seen on the web on the cafe. Josh just didn't want to take the time to get rid of the trolls. Most of us would have responded very quickly to a few guidelines and a few people getting kicked.

by ocean-kat on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 9:29pm

You're probably right. There were some flame throwers, and I would not have missed them.

Those were such good times. I often think about them, and you're right, there were some AWESOME discussions.

I doubt he'll go back to reader blogs, but I mentioned it in my e-mail to Josh, and he didn't say it was out of the question, in fact indicated vaguely that it was a possibility down the road with the TPM Prime memberships.

I'm not feeling like $50.00 a year is out of line, so I'll probably give it a try.

by stillidealistic on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 9:47pm

Was i a troll or flamethrower, or just someone contributing a lot and trying to be funny-interesting-relevant-provocative-etc.? Somewhere I downloaded the complete tpmcafe archive, but havent had any interest to peruse it.

by Anonymous pp (not verified) on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 10:48am

Type 1.

"Nuts." - Check.

"Hard to pass." - Check.

Type 1.

Bristol Stool Chart - definitely the best way to rate bloggers.

by quinn esq on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 11:29am

Best type for amateur scatologists tracking nature for the 1st time.

by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 4:47pm

Yes--it was a big to-do, with lots of accusations of "outing" people being thrown around.

I think once the literary smoke cleared, it was discovered that the literal smoke wasn't so thick either--the "firebombing" actually consisted of getting drunk, going back to the office and setting fire to a wastebasket. Not the sort of thing we'd approve, but perhaps not worth a full analysis on a nationally-read site, with names named and all.

As I recall I took a fair amount of heat for saying so at the time....:-)

by erica20 on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 5:33pm

I remember Ripper. Didn't we all donate to send him and someone else to Washington or somewhere for a rally or something? (I'm old; I forget)

Don't know how I missed all of that hoopla. I wasn't even old then.

by Ramona on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 8:55pm

Yes, we did! As it turned out, the cameras outside Chris's building showed he never left his apartment that night, so he couldn't have done it, but it was ugly for awhile.

by stillidealistic on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 8:58pm

Wow. That's all. Wow. (Still trying to figure out how I missed all that.)

by Ramona on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 9:06pm

Oh, Ripper didn't do it after all? That is totally heartwarming. I think I took a little break from TPM in the midst of it all.

Yes, I think it was a healthcare rally of some kind, wasn't it?

by erica20 on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 9:17pm

Yeah, I think it was a health care rally, Erica. I never thought he was capable of anything so stupid, so I was glad he was able to find proof he didn't. He had had a dispute with the office over not getting paid for his work, so he was the 1st suspect. It was scary for him for awhile.

by stillidealistic on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 9:40pm

Yes, I remember it was for universal health care, and I remember that he was disappointed that more people didn't show up.

Sorry to hear about the ruckus, but I'm glad to hear he wasn't actually involved.

by Ramona on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 10:37pm

Steakhouse prices -- yikes!

The Cafe was great. A person could sit there all day and nurse a cup of coffee and not feel like they were taking up any important space. A $50 a year subscription for the Prime is sooo beyond my new and improved budget it is a foregone conclusion that I will not be signing up for the service. Especially since there is no evidence that reader blogs will be a feature. I mean, really....if I can't bless everyone with my awesome opinions of everything under the sun, what's the point?

So there's going to be in-depth articles at TPMPrime? Well, whoopie doo. There's in-depth articles all over the web for free. I can't see that it's offering anything special except for the promise of no spam. Maybe my view on it will change in time, but for now, I'm passing.

by wabby on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 3:11pm

I am with you about paying for Prime. My old and abused budget is not going to even let me. I was a regular reader of the cafe for many many years. I stumbled upon it while rocking a grand baby at night with a tummy ache in front of the computer to keep me entertained. Then came 2 more babies that my daughter had. I got to know all of you that way. I enjoyed the cafe more then the news articles on the front pages. You don't comment or even sign up with a crying baby in your arms, so I just made my remarks to myself. I didn't start making comment until the last year of the cafe. There had to of been more readers then me that he lost when he closed the cafe.

TPM is the only site that I have found that the printed lines move back and forth with out a app for my android. He offers one for a small fee that he says will go to a charity of his choice. I always thought that was a big mistake on his part not to offer a free app. I just moved on to the free news sites that I could get with my phone. I don't read TPM now. It isn't that interesting compared to other sites.

by trkingmomoe on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 7:18am

FYI - Per latest from TPM site:

Members Only Discussion Areas: TPM has the most interested, engaged and knowledgable audience anywhere on the web. And that audience, you, have always been at the heart of our editorial model. It was reader tips and feedback that helped us break the story that won us the first top tier journalism award ever won by a web native news organization. So to build and nurture that core group of readers TPMPrime will feature a special members only discussion forum, free from trolls and flyby commenters.

by Aunt Sam on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 8:27pm

Remember when Josh decided to randomly put links to the day's most-read Cafe blogs on the front page? And on, like, the third day, which also happened to coincide with a rollout to eleventy-jillion new readers, the most-read Cafe post was an expletive-laden personal invective (which somehow I'm remembering was written by you, Quinn, but I could be wrong about that.)

End of links to Cafe from front page.

Poor Josh--in some ways it's a miracle he kept us around as long as he did!

by erica20 on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 7:58pm

I think it was longer than 3 days...I used to think I was pretty hot snot being on TPM's front page multiple times...heeheehee! Was that you Quinn that blew it for us!?

by stillidealistic on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 9:00pm

It's kinda sad, but no... twasn't me. I don't think I ever made the front page. He says without a trace of bitterness.

Ha! ;-)

by quinn esq on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 10:52pm

It was a typically exhuberently titled post that was uncritically fronted by a textually blind algorithm.

by jollyroger on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 3:53am

Dude, your last comment broke dagblog. Not sure how you did it, but you obviously have a history of making trouble.

In any case, it's fixed now.

by Michael Wolraich on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 9:37am

Tomorrow I'll break the whole web...bwa-ha-ha-ha!!

by jollyroger on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 6:12pm

Jolly, was it one of yours? I can't remember, and now I'm curious.

by erica20 on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 9:49am

upon advice of counsel...

by jollyroger on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 6:11pm

The year seems wrong. I want to say it was earlier than that, like before 2008 even...

But on the other hand, I guess you'd remember!

by erica20 on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 1:01am

I was pretty jazzed whenever I got fronted (I once had three going at once ) and even made screengrabs. I can say with assurance that the linked post was fronted. I also had occasion shortly afterwards to pull Josh's chain for ending the practice and accused him of a Victorian sensibility which he obliquely acknowledged. I can't say that the re-formatting which eliminated the cafe post honor roll occurred immediately after a human encountered my surly syntax (which even here at Dag gets me banished from the front page more often than not) but the next time I visited after a brief equipment related hiatus the new format was in place.

by jollyroger on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 2:55am

Ha! Well then.

Funny, all Josh would have had to do was ask people to take turns putting up what they felt was the most pertinent blog of the day, with a couple of rules, and it would have been a much more moderate way to share what was going on at the Cafe. I know several of us suggested it but he didn't seem at all interested.

by erica20 on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 11:21am

The year seems wrong. I want to say it was earlier than that, like before 2008 even...

But on the other hand, I guess you'd remember!

by erica20 on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 1:02am

My memory of the event is it was one of the "gamers for Obama" group as I called them. It was a decently sized gang who brought the gamer style of discussion to the cafe. I hated them, really. They clicked each others blogs and constantly pushed them up to the top of the rec list. When Josh posted that he was linking the top few recced readers blogs to the front page I commented on what a shitty idea I thought that was and asked if he ever looked at the crap that regularly made it to the top of the list. It was embarrassing, most of the reader's blogs that made it to the front page. While great blogs by you and others rarely if ever made to the front page.

If the really good stuff from the cafe had made it to the front page it could have been a draw for the site, instead it was an embarrassment. Just another fail because Josh didn't pay attention or care about what was happening in the reader's blogs section.

by ocean-kat on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 12:37am

The old-timers at TPMCafe or whatever the blessed poster site was were really awful. Rosenberg at least was argumentative and would occasionally write something useful, but the others were just bland.

After the amateurs were kicked off, the # of comments for the select bloggers drifted down to about 1 1/2. Kinda says it all.

But yes, the mutual up-voting of other bland pieces or just hurra politics did get annoying. Occasionally I was able to get my numbers up, but the ones that got most seemed to always be the most trite.

by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 1:03am

Yes you're right. The cafe was for the sanctioned guest bloggers and they rarely got the comments the reader's blogs got. I've been mixing the two up a bit since it was so long ago. I was happy when it was something merely trite that got linked. I knew eventually something obnoxious would get linked to the front page.

Occasionally some from the reader's blogs section would go over to the cafe and run circles around the guests. Many times the guests wouldn't even engage. Like I said earlier, there was a lot of dross in the reader section but there were also some very knowledgeable people who could express themselves powerfully. Its hard to understand why Josh didn't cultivate that and use that free writing in some way.

After being off the internet for 20 months I went back to all the old sites on my favorite list. I was amazed at how trivial tpm has become. I check it a few times a week just for old times sake now.

by ocean-kat on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 1:28am

Jeffrey Toobin did a good job of responding and even picking parts of comments and weaving them into his responses. Others, but not many, come to mind when trying to remember as I grow younger.

Just like my ID photo does not look like me anymore
as I was so much older when it was taken.

There is a blog of insight on this time mix-up one day.
Dam looking outside to mirrors.

Am I talking about Ideal or I deal?

by Thinking on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 10:00am

DID Josh ask one or all of you guys to run it? Is that why you know about the structure??????

Inquiring minds, and all that.

by erica20 on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 8:04pm

Nope

by Michael Wolraich on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 7:39pm

If this is a repeat, sorry. More from Josh on TPM Prime.

by Ramona on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 9:36pm

Aha! So there WILL be scholarships! (excellent and will really help)

by erica20 on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 9:57pm

Will there be extra fees for bloggers who require extra moderation? (like a swear-word jar?)

:-D

by erica20 on Sat, 09/29/2012 - 10:05pm

I wonder if I can get Iron Bolt Bruce to pay the $100 he so clearly owes me by telling him it's a subscription to DagPrime?

by Michael Maiello on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 10:20am

I like your business model but we don't want to get into a copyright tussle with the Memo crowd. I suggest the elite paid subscription that will provide a backstage pass to this site be called Alpha Dag.

by moat on Sun, 09/30/2012 - 1:38pm

I think it is worthwhile to remember that the unfolding of TPM, TPMCafe and the reader blogs were part of the unfolding of the internet as a significant facet of social interaction for people. New social norms and understandings had to be developed, including notions of etiquette, on which there are still debates today.

How many words in the blogosphere were used in debate over what exactly constituted a troll, and when is it appropriate to call someone a troll?

TPMCafe and the reader blogs showed that when you toss a large number of people together under the general topic of politics, there is going to be a lot of diversity in regards to what everyone is seeking from the site.

One of the key groups that kept clashing were those who sought just plain ole political analysis and opinion and those who saw the site as place to develop a social community.

It seems another clash is over what type of "cafe" is desired. Josh appears to have desired the quiet salon (that name was already taken I guess) - where an "expert" pontificates and the others seated around the table would offer short responses such as "you make an interesting point about the dynamics of x" or "your conclusion reminds me of a similar one made by y last year." The reader blogs turned out to be a bustling coffeehouse where people blustered and pontificated and joked and got very passionate about the issues, and the conversation could as easily end up becoming about Monty Python as it could on nuclear proliferation, all admist of the "hey there, how ya doing?" banter between people who knew each other only through the site.

TPMPrime, by using a paywall, seems to be a way for Josh (and others doing the same thing) to control the environment not available to someone who opens up a site to who ever wants to sign up and start commenting. But this is true out there beyond the virtual world, too. The crowd that shows up to a free concert in the park is going to be different than the crowd that hands over cash for the experience. Just how many people want that quiet salon experience to the extent they are willing to pay for it is questionable. But I I think there people who are attracted to being part of an exclusive club, which this will appeal to. Josh seems to get that, hence:

During that period [before the launch], we’ll only be selling annual memberships. Those folks who sign up then will all become permanent ‘Launch Members’ of TPMPrime and you’ll be able say, in the words of Mitt Romney, ‘We Built That!’ No, there won’t be any special privileges associated with being a Launch Member. But we want to affix that title as a permanent thank you for being there at the beginning to get this new enterprise off the ground.

Which makes for an intriguing facet of the unfolding of the blogosphere's social landscape.

by Elusive Trope on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 12:19pm

I wonder how long it would be before someone responds during a comment tiff, "hey, look here buddy, I'm a Launch Member, so don't be telling me what is okay and not okay."

by Elusive Trope on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 12:24pm

TPM Prime started signing up members today. I've been waiting for Josh to tell us what exactly it includes, but there's been nothing beyond his original cryptic post. He's pitching the whole thing more like a more like a fundraiser than a service. Odd.

by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 3:06pm

I disagree that's it's odd; to paraphrase Barack Obama about Daily Kos, "it's all exactly what I would expect."

It will be interesting to see now if it proceeds like this: 1) is billed as the community will help make it become what it will become; 2) after six months or a year, Josh Marshall becomes dissatisfied with what it becomes via letting the community shape it 3) after that period, attention and funds are shifted elsewhere to areas that Josh Marshall finds more satisfying and attractive and to have more potential.

I have seen a pattern of eternal hope in some mythical audience that will appear, one that doesn't exist in reality. Part of that could be because he edits his own input via email, and can continue to do so if the actual audience is not to his liking.

Edit to add: I don't care if he happens to read this and takes it as a challenge to prove me incorrect. That would actually be dandy.

by artappraiser on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 3:23pm

Odd does not mean unexpected. Look, any ordinary media company unrolling a new pay service would work like hell to sell the damn service. There would be announcements for weeks about all the great stuff you get as TPM Prime member. The benefits of the service would be clear as day, even if some of the details were missing. And if having a large membership base at launch were important, then they would offer early-bird discounts.

But that's not what this thing is about. Instead of touting the benefits, Josh writes "It means a great deal to me and every member of our organization." Instead of discounts, early members get to be "'Launch Members," like it's some kind of honor: "you built it." This could be a pitch from a Metropolitan Opera trying to build a new wing.

I would prefer that it were a straight-up fundraiser, and I would simply donate what I felt I could afford.

by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 3:49pm

PS No ordinary media company would demand $50 up-front. They'd ask for $5 a month OR $50 for the year. And they would get a hell of a lot more sign-ups that way.

PPS Or more likely, they'd offer a one-month free trial and take your credit card info.

by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 3:51pm

I meant "it's all exactly what I would expect" as in he thinks you clearly see what it will be just like he does, because you already think like him, because you like his site and what he is interested in, as he is the brand and you are a fan. He usually doesn't explain these kind of things in much more detail, it's more like: it will form itself as one goes along. If you're not part of the tribe already, you won't be interested anyways. If you ask for more detail, chances are you'll get even more cryptic answers. If you then ask for examples for clarification, chances are you won't get a response.

It's kinda like this: Do you ask them to give you a tour when you are trying to join an exclusive country club?

by artappraiser on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 4:09pm

Do you ask them to give you a tour when you are trying to join an exclusive country club?

Yes, I think you do, at least most people do. And the club is certainly prepared to give you a tour and tell you why you should be a member. They may be elite, but they don't pretend that they're not a business.

In any case, my point is not about what Josh thinks about TPM. I don't care to probe his psyche. I just think this strategy makes no sense.

by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 4:20pm

Any country club that would accept me.... or either of you two.... etc. etc.

by quinn esq on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 7:16pm

Don't blame antisemitism - it's your handicap, really.

by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 7:19pm

I repeat myself when I'm distressed.

by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 1:57am

Yes, most people spending lots of money to join an exclusive country club research and understand what they're buying.

Why we're comparing TPM to an exclusive country club, no idea. The most interesting ideas on the site were provided by you and me (once TPMmuckraker stopped raking sufficient muck to be interesting)

Josh drove off his tenants through neglect or contempt. 1/4 might be here. Why would they pay him to heap even more scorn and neglect? 2008 even is so 4 years ago.

He got significant money poured on him by Marc Andreesen. What did he do with it? Why's he coming back to us (well, I didn't get an email).

In 2008, Myspace got passed by Facebook - now they're down to 25 million users.

But would anyone pay $50 a year for Facebook or Myspace or Joost? Or Salon? Hardly.

Get a clew, Josh - gotta find a real model. Maybe Andreesen can help out.

by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 7:17pm

I don't care to probe his psyche. I just think this strategy makes no sense.

Believe it or not, I am not trying to probe his psyche either. I am merely trying to recount experiencing many of his meta discussions and missives and watching craziness unfold as he couldn't for some reason communicate what he was trying to do with a larger audience. It just appears that I am getting into psychologizing because of the descriptive terminology needed to get the strangeness across. Toward the end of the Cafe, I remember "moat" and I commenting to each other after we asked meta questions and he "answered" them on one thread, that we wondered whether we were talking to someone from another planet. I know Tom Wright, someone who cared a great deal about the Cafe, and whose questions Josh for some reason felt more comfortable answering than others, felt the same way: frustrated, not getting a straight answer, talking past each other.

He simply does not express himself on these issues like most people are used to. And he shows no interest over the years in trying to change that. It's like this: either your're his kind of people and "gets" what he is trying to do, or you don't. If you don't "get "him as he is and how he says it, he doesn't see any reason to continue the relationship/interaction. And you, the interlocutor, or the person who wants clarification, or finds things odd, is left in the position of arguing with success.

by artappraiser on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 10:33pm

One large difference between this roll out and previous changes is that there is no discussion on tpm about tpmPrime. Unless its hidden on some back page I couldn't find. Back when there were reader blogs there was extensive input from those Josh is supposedly trying to attract, " for our most passionate, core readers. Do you visit TPM multiple times a day? (You can admit it, you’re among friends.)" It was the people on the reader's blogs that visited tpm several times a day. It was on the reader blogs that some/many formed friendships. Perhaps the present commentors on the staff blogs have a similar relationship?

The only public discussion of tpmPrime is here. Not so strange that we'd discuss it given our history but rather odd that there is no place for discussion on tpm about a new section devoted to...discussion.

by ocean-kat on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 3:57pm

Must... not... attempt... to.... place... Josh... on... Bristol... Stool... chart.

by quinn esq on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 7:18pm

I don't care if he happens to read this and takes it as a challenge to prove me incorrect. That would actually be dandy.

Do you really think Josh is going to come over here to read what we have to say about Prime? It certainly seemed as if he paid almost no attention to what we had to say when we were on his site, why would he care now? Or do you think he feels he made a mistake getting rid of us and would like to see us return? I've always assumed he was happy to get rid of us contentious out spoken pains in his ass. Herding cats cliche and all that.

by ocean-kat on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 8:24pm

No, I don't think he cares about "us."But just in case, I didn't want anyone to think I was "sniping" here as if behind his back. That the things I say here I would say directly to him..(PLUS feel strongly in general that everyone who writes on a public forum should consider that it could be read by anyone because it could, and you can often be surprised by who ends up reading what you said.)

He says it right here who he cares about and wants to join, the kind of people he corresponds with in emails, the people who before TPMCafe was even started, dived into docudumps for him and gave him tips on what they found:

It was reader tips and feedback that helped us break the story that won us the first top tier journalism award ever won by a web native news organization. So to build and nurture that core group of readers TPMPrime will feature a special members only discussion forum, free from trolls and flyby commenters.

The people he is talking about there were never very active at TPM Cafe. When he said at the end that the TPMCafe users were a very tiny section of his audience, he wasn't exaggerating; furthermore, I think the audience he wanted to use it never did:, or at least didn't for long. But they were all still emailing him. I do recall him saying something in the last years of the Cafe that "people" complained to him about the discourse there, that it didn't interest them, that they had no interest in participating there, that that was part of the problem keeping it open, when his most faithful fans weren't interested in it. He meant the people he corresponded with in emails, of course..

He's never stopped putting the phrase "send us your tips" on the site, I'm sure he gets them Those are the people he wants active in this club

How can I say it clearer: if you've corresponded with him, if he answered your emails, he wants you. (He never answered any of mine, BTW, though I only sent 2 or 3 about Plame, and never tried again when I didn't get an answer, so I don't know if it counts. I'm not one to want to talk to a wall in private..)

It's possible he also intends it to include those who used to be invited contributors there to "talk amongst themselves" and like people. He has a large core of groupies/friends/correspondents, loyal to him, willing to help him, that have been corresponding with him for a very long time, and he invited many of them to contribute at the Cafe from time to time. (People like Reed Hundt, Ed Kilgore,etc..)

You know the other ones, because he quotes them with initials often.. He did that all through the highs and lows of the Cafe, and content-wise, those quotes never referenced anything at the Cafe. He wants a lot more people like that to interact..

This may be a clue--He didn't write a mission statement for TPMCafe when he started it but attempted to write one a couple months in, which he never finished.. One of the things on the vague draft was that he wanted people to use it for was "activist journalism." When some of us questioned what that was, what he meant, and that some of us didn't like the idea of mixing activism and journalism, that seemed to turn him off from finishing the statement.

BTW-my user name is no longer blocked from commenting since they re-instituted using Disquis commenting over there. I am under no illusion that that means they did anything to cause that. It was just a clean start. Actually I don't think Josh Marshall was the one who blocked me from commenting at the end, I think it was that COO at the time, he didn't like all the questions I was aksing about what they were planning to do.. I figured out later the fact was they were using an altered form of Disquis, they weren't going to allow ttracking of users and I was telling people the workaround of how to track commenters you wanted to follow. I am not sure about this but I think the situation was that enabling tracking (or "following") was a more expensive form of Disquis that they didn't want to buy. It wasn't personal, the guy just wanted to shut me up talking about that and asking about it. The irony is, they do have the full version of Disquis now, you can track and follow other commenters and all kinds of of other functions..

To sum it up: I don't think I am important to him at all, I am neither someone he cares about nor am I someone he wants to be rid of. But being recognized by him was never something I wanted so it wasn't of import to me,either. I was always just interested in an intelligent, moderated forum, and one with relatively constant fresh blood, not incestuous. Which reminds me, "members only" can be really tricky with the incestuous thing; I don't care how civil and intelligent the members normally are, if they get too much like family, chances are hight that they are eventually going to have the problems that family therapy was invented for.

by artappraiser on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 10:37pm

Why assume there is some deep plan here? People have always been willing to pay extra to live in gated or restricted communities that keep the riff-raff out. Marshall is just going where the money is. If it works, he can gradually raise the fees, and also segregate users further into silver, gold, platinum, etc. members, with different levels of premium fees for each group.

by Dan Kervick on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 10:54pm

Just ran across:

Funny to Think: Back in 2005, Warren was launch contributor for TPMCafe; ran her own group blog, Warren Reports, on debt/middle class issues
— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) September 6, 2012

by artappraiser on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 11:18pm

So join the TPM Special Club today, and you too can become a US Senate candidate!

by Dan Kervick on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 11:26pm

Yeah, I am pretty convinced it's about affecting politics with him, though I still don't get the how; never did answer my question: "what do you mean by 'activist journalism'?" He also clearly admires muckraking, and that originally assumed if you dig in the muck and expose it to light, that everything else will take care of itself.

by artappraiser on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 11:46pm

Well, that sound plausible in principle. But Marshall always engaged in 100% partisan muckraking. He's not an equal opportunity exposer of the lies and corruption of the rich, powerful and dangerous - like a Palast, for example. He's just an uninteresting and predictable hack in the employ of one of the two major parties.

by Dan Kervick on Mon, 10/01/2012 - 11:54pm

Based on who Josh originally invited to post at the Cafe, my guess is that he is was(?) a New Democrat.

That Cafe patrons opposed almost all of the policy prescriptions offered, often rudely, may explain his dissembling style of communication.

by EmmaZahn on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 9:48am

It may, sort of. Some people definitely were not nice about certain changes and in some cases were shitty and mean. But josh has always been like this about the technology required for the cafe. What was suggested to him by whoever was doing his site wouldn't quite work, people would get frustrated, then he would get frustrated and tell people they must be doing it wrong. It always seemed to me that no matter what he did, he didn't get the right kind of help with what he was trying to do..

I don't know what genghis and crew do differently here but they just don't seem to have the technical hassles and frustrations that dogged josh.

by erica20 on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 2:01pm

But josh has always been like this about the technology required for the cafe.

I agree, just wanted to give a ditto on that, and content issues are not necessarily related, but could be. It's across the board, too, mho--not just Cafe--poor communication on meta about other parts of the site. And many FUBAR choices on software and design. (For example, ever notice how the rest of the site is archived, how you can't go "back" in chrono order on a page, but that it's first slotted into pages of weeks?)

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 5:20pm

He is expanding his description as he gets feedback and questions--that's the way he's always done it in my experience--here's the newest version, with more details about sections, published @ 6:11 pm:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2012/10/will_you_join_us.php

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 12:29am

Whatever else it is, it's a pitch for money:

And this is a critical part of not just building but diversifying our revenue base. So I need you to be part of this.

That part, at least, is pretty clear.

by Ramona on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 7:25am

Yes, you can pay in multiple denominations to ensure diversity. Even quarters & nickels'll do.

by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 8:13am

It must have been a challenge to keep the word "cafe" out of that description.

oh,dear

by erica20 on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 8:44am

3-4 million readers a month? well, maybe... figures lie & what all. I like the idea of selling something before you've seen it. New longer in-depth articles!!! wow, like Salon or NY Times or New Yorker or Rolling Stone? Editorial feedback!!! maybe they'll listen to you this time. maybe. Talk among yourselves!!! Talk with teh experts!!! Is he gonna traipse out Valerie Jarrett or Van Jones, or who?

Funny, money not jumping out of my pocket. Even though I just love being called interested (or interesting?), devoted, engaged, attractive, intelligent, sensual, debilitating, a crackup and a card, amazing...

by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 9:11am

The study of "stand along political blogs" for which I just posted the press release below, put TPM at 458,000 unique visitors in September 2008, right before the election (compare # 1 Huffpo at 4.5 million and Politico #2 at 2.4 million) It's feasible to imagine the audience growing a lot from September to the inauguration, but it's tough to imagine that growth many times over to 3 million. After January 2009, it's hard to believe a maintenance of the many times over number. So if it's the truth, I surely don't get what attracts a big audience (and I do pretty much get what Huffpo does to get its numbers.)

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 2:52pm

An unique "reader" is anyone who clicked on a link and landed on the site, stayed for a second and then left. It is one of the reason places like TPM and the Huff use such sensational headlines. And it doesn't matter where in the world the person is. It would be interesting to see the numbers of US visitors who visited the sight for 5 minutes or more, and clicked on multiple articles.

by Elusive Trope on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 6:47pm

Like I was sayin', I suspect that the case was that for many newbies coming from an aggregator or similar, when they finally happened to land on a Desidero reader blog, they left, never to return. Golis prolly had elaborate statistical graphs on it. Hence, no coffee mug for Desidero. Never. Uhuh.

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 7:02pm

I'd like to think my Monty Python blog drove at least 5,000 "interested, engaged and knowledgable [sic] readers" from the site. Oy!

by Elusive Trope on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 7:14pm

Yes, that "Stranger in a Strange Land", "Who was that masked man?" feeling, combined with Friday 13 part 12. Quite the welcoming party.

Still, not even a golf cap? Guys are stingy. Life's unfair.

by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 2:10am

Just ran across some real interesting market data for "stand alone political blogs" for Sept 2007- Sept 2008, if you place it in context of how Josh Marshall rolled out the software in Feb 2008 that got many of you blogging on the primaries and overtaking the old TPMCafe.

He ended up only middling on the size of audience, with 10 bigger than him (Huffington Post, Politico, Drudge Report, Real Clear Politics, Free Republic, Capitol Advantage, Daily Kos, Town Hall, Newsbusters, Worldnet,) but he absolutely won the "explosive growth" number contest @ 1,321% in one year.

Of course, you can't put that all on TPMCafe and Reader Blogs, as it's judging the whole site, and it's counting growth in unique visitors, not constant repeat visitors like Reader Blogs would be furnishing. But something he did then worked magnificently. I might bet on polling info.

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 2:54pm

I wrote over 300 diaries and I think my comments were up to 13,000. Scary. Didn't even get a thankie or TPM coffee mug. Should I pay $50 to work hard to drive business to his site? I thought the dumb ads were to pay for it, which is why I mentioned "Russian girls" and "child mailorder brides" frequently to draw in clicks. Come to think of it, didn't get those either.

by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 2:54pm

Yeah but how many unique commenters did you have? You aren't allowed to count the 5,000 comments that were you and a single Obama supporter battling it out, that counts for only 2 unique visitors. Furthermore, you don't know how many unique visitor lurkers left and never came back after reading that debate.....just razzing ya

More seriously, one thing that some of youse guys never seemed to get about the hit counters that drove me nuts: every time everyone that was previously on the thread opens the thread to look at a new comment, it counts as another hit by each person. That kind of count of popularity is bogus. If you debate a lot in threads, your hits are going to go up exponentially, just with the two people arguing and like 5 others following the argument, can go to a thousand hits pretty quick.

Feeding trolls is one sure way to get hits up on a post, meanwhile, in private, a majority of the forum membership is flooding the inbox of the moderator threatening to leave, of that I have personal experience.

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 3:14pm

R u sayin you didn't like Quinn's & my witty repartee, page after page? "Hits in progress" was our motto, and boy did we drive them up. While it's a shame no one else joined in or "could keep up" as Q phrased it, it was a comfie little niche while it lasted.

As for stats, I'd say "unique visitor lurkers we drove away with hair on fire screaming" is the key statistic. Not that TPM processed those - they could barely keep the hamsters running fast enough to do database lookups.

Shame couldn't read those letters to the moderator though.

Anyway, now you know how I reached 13,000 comments.

by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 4:23pm

Shame couldn't read those letters to the moderator though.

One of the hooks that keeps some of us fools like me yapping about Josh Marshall is "who is his base, who are these fans he keeps talking about and quoting with intials?" And why didn't they like this or that version of TPMCafe. What was it that they didn't like? And what do they like? It's like it's a secret mystery base/demographic that only the Josh Marshall knows and understands. No transparency about any of it. Maybe that's all part of the plan and we would be the dupes.....all buzz is good buzz, if you're not talking about him, he's nobody.

(Slightly related: my mention a few days ago that I like moderation but I like it public so that users can learn from it what is expected of them. Chances are non-transparency will not be a problem in a small forum, but when you get bigger, either with numbers or just impact, be assured that the conspiracy theorists will arrive about the non-transparent powers-that-be. And that's without mentioning jealousy rearing it's head.)

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 4:43pm

Clues-- he gets a lot of his news from his email:

Drudge
By Josh Marshall October 2, 2012, 4:12 PM

For years, I was a big reader of Drudge. Was never a fan of Drudge, though I recognized his entrepreneurial acumen. In fact, I despised most everything that he stood for, from rancid politics to integrity free journalism, the endless lying. But I visited the site ALL THE TIME. And the reason was simple. Before social media and (for me) before the TPM “talk” email account gave me a steady traffic of pointers to important stories from everywhere it was just a great way to know what was happening — both in the most basic sense of what was happening and also what was being talked about.

And then maybe half a dozen years ago I just lost interest.

The utility disappeared. There were plenty of other channels I could use to stay up to date. And probably just as importantly there was a much fuller ecosystem of news sites and Drudge simply wasn’t the same kind of force anymore, though many in Washington, on all fours and leather-strapped desperately wanted him to rule their world.

For me personally I lot of that was the “talk” emails at TPM. I’d find things out faster than most people in the news business [......]

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 5:27pm

What? You didn't get the child mailorder brides?

Proper postage, son. Proper postage.

by quinn esq on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 3:01pm

Donal Prime

Donal blog, September 30, 2012

After quite a few years of giving it away for free – it being content – internet sites are now demanding the financial security of ~~marriage~~ subscription fees. After years of watching you play the field, more and more sites want you to settle down and tie the knot with the mainstream media.

[....]

Last week Josh Marshall announced that Talking Points Memo was looking for eligible partners. Probably 80% of my online acquaintances derive from my years of posting and commenting at the TPM Cafe’.

[....]

So to defray costs I am announcing Donal Prime. Employees of the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Baltimore Sun and Talking Points Memo are encouraged to contribute to the running of this blog. The rest of you can keep reading for free.

I found that via DagBlog's contributor's masthead, BTW:

Donal has moved on from dagblog, and one day they'll take his name off the masthead. He is now posting on a wordpress blog called simply, Donal.

Since I can't manage to log in there except under my meatspace identity, which I refuse to do, I hope this isn't out of line, but I want to take the the opportunity to say that I really really miss Donal's occasional comments on other authors' posts here and wish that things would work out where he felt comfortable participating here like any other commenter. The IronboltBruce threads just aren't the same without him, for one example.

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 4:07pm

I miss donal too, but I do go to his 'donal' blog - he will be sorely missed here for many reasons. A quality blogger and on point comments as well as a sense of humor and reason with a great dry wit.

I understand his rationale and support him, of course, but wish he would still 'visit' here once in awhile.

by Aunt Sam on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 4:37pm

We all miss Donal. I will make it my project to take him off the masthead tomorrow. Sigh.

by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 6:13pm

Maybe first we could send him some virtual flowers, candy, an electric car - and promise him (fill in the blank)............?!?

by Aunt Sam on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 7:38pm

At some point dagblog has to accept the fact that...

by Elusive Trope on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 7:43pm

by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 12:04pm

I wish Donal had stayed around, too. I think his non-political pieces added a welcome dimension to dag, and I really like his voice. I've gone to his website, too, and I wish him well there. But I still think he should be here, too.

by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 8:30am

The more I think about it, the madder I am that he didn't call it TPMFlair.

by Michael Maiello on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 5:48pm

Especially considering that there will be a special bloggers like The Rock with his Do You Smell What's Cooking in the Beltway update on the latest committee happenings and Sheamus commenting on the ongoing foreign policy development between Ireland and the US (I haven't heard what his take is on Bill Clinton running for office over there).

And then there will be the special reports like CM Punk with his How the Anaconda Vise Move Can Bring Greater Bi-Partisanship to the House.

by Elusive Trope on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 6:36pm

You should see The Million Dollar Man on the 47%.

by Michael Maiello on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 8:02pm

just like John Cena's reaction to Ryan's budget and its attack on the Headstart program

by Elusive Trope on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 8:11pm

And then that discussion about haircuts on Greek sovereign debt...

by Michael Maiello on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 9:15pm

And Kane is still pondering whether underwater home owners should be bailed out. Check out his latest blog on TPMPrime live tomorrow where he will respond to your questions.

But don't think he won't do a chokeslam on you if act like a troll or ask a really stupid question.

by Elusive Trope on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 9:32pm

You win best of sub-thread, mho (sorry, destor, good tries, tho;) I especially like the description of the first photo as "pondering," cracks me up.

by artappraiser on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 5:59pm

Josh Marshall talking about TPM Prime in more detail, and giving some of his thoughts on the reason for its development, in an interview with Nieman Journalism Lab:

Talking Points Memo launches membership-only program, wades into longform

Josh Marshall: “What I noticed is that we didn’t have really strong internal financial incentives focused on our core readers.”

By Adrienne LaFrance, Nieman Journalism Lab, Oct. 2, 2012, 1:15 p.m.

This is what I have seen in the past, too--he is much better, more transparent, on meta issues, when he has an interlocutor on it that he considers a peer. I used to go search for interviews with him on Google News when there was an information drought about something going on at the site, and I would sometimes find an answer in an interview he was giving to trade media. Then I'd go back to the Cafe and post a link, and people would respond like "why isn't Josh telling us this?"

by artappraiser on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 7:45pm

Because his mental image of his readers is of a bunch of lowly goddamn trolls.

Seriously. He's just gotten waaaaaay too used to looking down on people.

When he's actually face to face with someone he officially respects, his brain turns back on.

But the way he shut the Readers site down? Seriously. there is nobody, on the worst half-assed blog in the world, that could have done it that badly. It was appalling.

He really needs, to this day, to apologize for the shitty way he behaved. and I say this, as somebody knowing something about shitty behaviour.

Til then? Fuck. That. Guy.

by quinn esq on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 8:22pm

And then there is the great coming together of those who have previously locked horns.

Group hug?

by Elusive Trope on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 9:02pm

But probably one of the reasons we lock horns is that both of us understand the situation is really like this, which Josh wants to ignore

by Elusive Trope on Tue, 10/02/2012 - 9:08pm

In the News

Russia plays weak hand in Palestine
Russia plays weak hand in Palestine

submitted by PeraclesPlease 9 months ago

The intra-Palestinian meeting in Moscow has precedent

Russia's hosted such meetings in the past, most recently Feb 2019

Russia has long lamented the US' "monopolization" of the peace process & tried to carve out a niche for itself: mediating among the disunited Palestinians/2
— Hanna Notte (@HannaNotte) February 29, 2024

Read the article at https://twitter.com/HannaNotte/status/1763116222256701787

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Mother Jones is Reaching out to Alternative Party Voters
Mother Jones is Reaching out to Alternative Party Voters

submitted by HSG 9 months ago

Here's what I told them: https://halginsberg.com/vote-for-jill-stein-again/

Read the article at https://halginsberg.com/vote-for-jill-stein-again/

2 comments

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Controversial Brazil law curbing Indigenous rights comes...
Controversial Brazil law curbing Indigenous rights comes into force

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

Controversial Brazil law curbing Indigenous rights comes into force https://t.co/pCoDg05irX
— Gareth Harris (@garethharr) December 28, 2023

Read the article at https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/28/brazil-law-indigenous-land-rights-claim-time-marker?CMP=share_btn_tw

1 comment

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Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Port-au-Prince, Haiti (...
Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Port-au-Prince, Haiti (December 25, 2023)

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

Location: U.S. Embassy and residential compounds

Events: Heavy gunfire is occuring around the area of the U.S. Embassy and residential compounds adjacent to the Trutier area of Tabarre. All Embassy personnel have been instructed to remain indoors and shelter-in-place until further notice. All others should avoid the area.

Actions to take:

Avoid the area;

Avoid demonstrations and any large gatherings of people;

Do not attempt to drive through roadblocks; and

If you encounter a roadblock, turn around and get to a safe area.

Read the article at https://ht.usembassy.gov/security-alert-u-s-embassy-port-au-prince-haiti-december-25-2023/

3 comments

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Pakistan Is Creating the World’s Next Refugee Crisis
Pakistan Is Creating the World’s Next Refugee Crisis

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

By The Editorial Board @ Bloomberg.com, December 8, 2023

A mass expulsion of Afghan migrants could destabilize the region and fuel radicalization. The West should pressure Islamabad to change course.

Read the article at https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-12-08/pakistan-s-expulsion-of-afghan-refugees-risks-another-crisis

6 comments

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Internet shut down in Chad
Internet shut down in Chad

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

All eyes on #Chad right now
Chad has two internet trunks coming into the country: One from the Red Sea via Sudan; the other from Cameroon. Not possible for the totality of the country's internet network to be shut unless done centrally. A lot of rumors swirling; few facts. https://t.co/N6bDJZ2ixO

Read the article at https://x.com/_hudsonc/status/1732891968709992511?s=20

2 comments

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[Economy] where Joe's success falls short
[Economy] where Joe's success falls short

submitted by PeraclesPlease 11 months ago

Read the article at

3 comments

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[CRIME News] 3 loss-prevention employees in Macy’s across...
[CRIME News] 3 loss-prevention employees in Macy’s across the street from Philadelphia City Hall stabbed

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

BREAKING: Three loss prevention employees in Macy’s across the street from Philadelphia City Hall stabbed, one of them has died from stab wounds, @PhillyPolice sources tell me. Police converged on the store as the three workers were rushed to Jefferson Hospital. pic.twitter.com/4U1eKycL4W

Read the article at https://x.com/KeeleyFox29/status/1731713272942940365?s=20

38 comments

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Former U.S. Ambassador Arrested, Charged With Working As...
Former U.S. Ambassador Arrested, Charged With Working As Secret Agent For Cuba

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

Former US Ambassador Arrested, Charged With Working As Secret Agent For Cuba https://t.co/LDwo4ZJI1K
— HuffPost (@HuffPost) December 4, 2023

Read the article at https://www.huffpost.com/entry/manuel-rocha-ambassador-arrested-cuba_n_656d1e2ae4b028b0f3d07478

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[War in Israel, Chapter II] UNRWA under scrutiny
[War in Israel, Chapter II] UNRWA under scrutiny

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

[Chapter I news is HERE, Oct. 7 til today]

You don’t get it.
It’s not about an UNRWA teacher who held an Israeli kid hostage in his house.
It’s all about how for 75 years you have destroyed the future of generations of Palestinians, including my family.
My cousins in Arab countries are still not citizens - not even the… https://t.co/nv6anubGhc
— George Deek (@GeorgeDeek) December 2, 2023

Note 'Community Notes' attached to UNWRA's statement.

Read the article at https://x.com/GeorgeDeek/status/1731020551328579863?s=20

58 comments

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Maduro, Under Pressure, Holds Vote to Annex Territory From...
Maduro, Under Pressure, Holds Vote to Annex Territory From a Neighbor

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

Imperialism for me but not for thee?

It's wild that Venezuela is now holding a vote on whether 2/3 of Guyana actually belongs to them! Analysts suggest that Modoru may want military action to pump up his sinking popularity.

Could we have a war in South America?!?

"The people who live in Essequibo are largely… pic.twitter.com/QvMEjkkgwy

Read the article at https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/03/world/americas/maduro-vote-essequibo-guyana.html

6 comments

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[Where is the GOP headed?] Divisions leave Florida’s House...
[Where is the GOP headed?] Divisions leave Florida’s House Republicans powerless

submitted by artappraiser 12 months ago

The lack of a cohesive delegation has allowed attention-seeking lawmakers to act on their own.

McCarthy: “You have [Rep. Matt] Gaetz, who belongs in jail…”

Gaetz: “Tough words from a guy who sucker punches people in the back. The only assault I committed was against Kevin’s fragile ego.”https://t.co/LctPuz6Pcf

Read the article at https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/29/divisions-leave-floridas-house-republicans-powerless-00129200

10 comments

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‘She got so mad at me’: book on the ‘Squad’ details AOC-...
‘She got so mad at me’: book on the ‘Squad’ details AOC-Pelosi clashes

submitted by artappraiser 12 months ago

By Martinn Pengelly in Washington DC for TheGuardian.com, Nov. 30

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez tells Ryan Grim life in Congress ‘completely transformed’ after Democratic leader stepped down

Read the article at https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/nov/30/squad-book-aoc-nancy-pelosi?CMP=share_btn_tw

15 comments

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US health insurers Humana, Cigna in talks to merge -source
US health insurers Humana, Cigna in talks to merge -source

submitted by artappraiser 12 months ago

@ Reuters, Nov. 29

Read the article at https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/us-health-insurers-humana-cigna-talks-merge-wsj-2023-11-29/

3 comments

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Central Africa’s dinosaur regimes and the art of coup-...
Central Africa’s dinosaur regimes and the art of coup-proofing

submitted by artappraiser 12 months ago

"Both the AU and the intl community place more weight on whether elections are held than whether they are free and fair. Sanctions/expulsions occur when there is a coup but not necessarily when elections are rigged or if an “institutional coup” occurs." https://t.co/m9dNimJP0D
— Cameron Hudson (@_hudsonc) November 28, 2023

Read the article at https://africanarguments.org/2023/11/central-africas-dinosaur-regimes-and-the-art-of-coup-proofing/

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