Dr. C: Boston and the End to the Endless War
Maiello's Book-Almost Hits the Metaphorical Stands
Miami Fans Mistakenly Chant "Let's Go Eat" During Playoff Game
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Dr. C: Boston and the End to the Endless War Maiello's Book-Almost Hits the Metaphorical Stands Miami Fans Mistakenly Chant "Let's Go Eat" During Playoff Game |
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When a Predator drone killed al Qaeda propagandist Anwar al-Awlaki in a lawless area of Yemen recently, Americans lined up in three camps: happy that they thought a terrorist was dead, outraged that they thought an American citizen was assassinated, or uncomfortably approving, or ambivalent about the fact that an apparent al Qaeda leader was snuffed. The discussion of his death at the same time evoked and begged the broader question that was not made express in most debates around the legality or propriety of killing him: what is the limiting principle in America's continuing military conflict with the terrorist group al Qaeda? Critiques of killing al-Awlaki, to me, are necessarily much more about that, just as supporting killing him fails to articulate whether there is a limiting principle in the conflict, and then, what it is in particular. This piece steps through the (now fairly familiar) arguments over al-Awlaki, and suggests an answer to that broader and more important question, to which we looked in the discussion after his death through a glass darkly, if at all. Thus, we consider: (1) whether it is novel or surprising that Obama ordered the death of al-Awlaki in the first place; (2) whether al Qaeda leaders should be considered as subject to criminal justice or military assault, and how the correctness of killing al-Awlaki is mostly a function of which premise you choose; (3) whether American forces could legally attack al-Awlaki; and (4) why discomfort over his killing points to the larger and far more important question of what limiting principles there are or should there be in America's undeclared war on al Qaeda, now in its eleventh year.
Was It a Surprise or Departure From Policy For President Obama To Order the Death of al-Awlaki?
Given the considerable evidence that al-Awlaki fostered terrorism, the short answer is absolutely not. In the Presidential campaign in 2008, Candidate Obama spoke without controversy or any contradiction within the Democratic Party that I can remember, in favor of tracking down terrorists around the world and killing them. He set out a doctrine of striking at terrorists, and al Qaeda in particular, just as if we were at war with a nation-state. ("America is at war with terrorists who killed on our soil.") Obama's stated plan for striking at al Qaeda was one without regard for national borders wherever it or its leaders hide, in wild and remote physical spaces beyond government. Describing the Taliban striking in Afghanistan, and then holing up in Pakistan, unchecked by Musharraf or the ISI, Obama stated:
"As 9/11 showed us, the security of Afghanistan and America is shared. And today, that security is most threatened by the al Qaeda and Taliban sanctuary in the tribal regions of northwest Pakistan. Al Qaeda terrorists train, travel, and maintain global communications in this safe-haven. The Taliban pursues a hit and run strategy, striking in Afghanistan, then skulking across the border to safety. This is the wild frontier of our globalized world. There are wind-swept deserts and cave-dotted mountains. There are tribes that see borders as nothing more than lines on a map, and governments as forces that come and go. There are blood ties deeper than alliances of convenience, and pockets of extremism that follow religion to violence. It's a tough place. But that is no excuse. There must be no safe-haven for terrorists who threaten America. We cannot fail to act because action is hard…. But let me make this clear. There are terrorists holed up in those mountains [in Pakistan] who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al Qaeda leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will."
Obama also suggests with similar language that he would "take down terrorist networks" from Indonesia to Africa. In another place in the speech, Obama uses "taking out terrorists" to mean "capture or kill."
Anyone who heard all this understood that Candidate Obama would treat al Qaeda as something America is at war with; that he would, like President Clinton in 1998, strike preemptively at its leadership across national borders. Obama's 2007 speech defines al Qaeda as an enemy presently planning terrorist attacks on America or Americans. It defines leadership in al Qaeda, again like President Clinton did in 1998, as a sufficient basis to strike with deadly force. Obama also describes as a military goal destroying al Qaeda's ability to have a space in which it can "train, travel and maintain global communications." From this, it's pretty clear that leaders of al Qaeda will be killed wherever they are found, as enemies in an undeclared but real asymmetric war between the United States and AQ. ("Groups affiliated with or inspired by al Qaeda operate worldwide.") Candidate Obama also separately emphasized that national borders were an antiquated limit on war-fighting, deploring the Iraq War as an example of "[a] rigid 20th Century ideology that insisted that the 21st century's stateless terrorism could be defeated through the invasion and occupation of a state." There is a lot of foreshadowing of each of the elements of killing al-Awlaki here: (1) that the U.S. is at war with al Qaeda; and (2) that leadership of al Qaeda is fair game anywhere, anytime.
Critics of the President's recent action will correctly note in his 2007 text that he pledged to "restor[e] our values," which the critics correctly note Obama describes at times in terms of civil liberties. In the 2007 speech, though, "our values" have nothing to do with compromise in conflict with attacking al Qaeda. Instead, Candidate Obama suggests that we will redeem American values by closing Guantanamo, rejecting torture, bringing terrorists to trial. Other than standing trial when captured, Obama suggests no particular interest in the civil liberties of al Qaeda leadership figures or fighters. Read it and see. Civil liberties means FISA, it has to do with warrantless searches at home. It does not have to do with claimed civil rights, if any, of the leadership of al Qaeda.
And does this really have anything to do with Barack Obama, or does Obama's action simply carry forward a de facto bipartisan consensus from the 2008 campaign to carry forward transnational military strikes against al Qaeda? Most everyone who voted in the 2008 Democratic primary voted for Obama or his current Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. Consider this essay, which claims that in the wake of 9/11, Senator Clinton asserted that any country providing aid and comfort to al Qaeda "will now face the wrath of our country." Claiming a right to attack any country permitting al Qaeda to operate within it, a fortiori, justifies attack on the areas of the country then harboring al Qaeda. (Consider also that the essay citing then-Senator Clinton's statements, from www.antiwar.com, no less, describes a "broad consensus" after 9/11 "that the United States should go after al-Qaeda cells and their leadership.") Consider this March 2007 New York Times interview, in which, when asked how she would wind down the Iraq War, Senator Clinton responded by finding "vital national security interests" in "whether you have a failed province or a region that serves as a petri dish for insurgents and al Qaeda." In July 2007, Candidate Clinton pledged that even in withdrawing troops from overseas, she would "order specialized units to engage in narrow and targeted operations against al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations in the region." This sounds precisely like Joe Biden's 2009 plan for a lighter footprint in Afghanistan and a greater emphasis on more narrowly conceived lethal strikes by Special Forces or CIA at terrorist groups, interestingly beyond al Qaeda.
In making the case that President Obama has somehow entered terra incognita in dispatching a terrorist leader, Greenwald doth protest too much. President Obama's use of Predator drones to attack identified al Qaeda leaders or cells is exactly what he said he would do, and what other Democrats seem to indicate they would do, before the 2008 election. To pretend otherwise is fatuous. Since charges that Truman lost China, Democrats have been at pains to burnish their hawk credentials. Think staunchly antiCommunist JFK in the Senate. Think LBJ refusing through 1964 to clarify what he would do in Vietnam, and the strong response to the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Think of Bill Clinton launching cruise missiles at Osama bin Laden in 1998, without prior overflight permission from Pakistan or Afghanistan. Think John Kerry claiming (correctly) that the U.S. should have put boots on the ground quicker to seek bin Laden in September 2001. The history of Democratic Presidential candidates in our lifetime is almost universally that of reassuring the populace that they are, if not hawkier-than-thou, they are at least equally hawky. And Obama's statements about al-Qaeda were there for all to see. The Greenwald/ACLU position did not command any attention or support in the 2008 Presidential election. That doesn't make it right (I'll get to that soon), but it hardly makes it surprising or novel.
Should We View al Qaeda Leaders Through a Criminal Law or Military Prism?
The entire discussion of whether one believes al-Awlaki can be killed centers around which of two opposed premises you pick about members or leaders of al Qaeda: (a) that they are military targets and can be killed overseas; or (b) that they are subject at all times and places to the American criminal justice system. Glenn Greenwald, unsurprisingly, picks (b), and as you can see in his writings, everything falls neatly into place from there. To the Greenwaldians, not only was it wrong to kill al-Awlaki with military force, but likewise bin Laden, who, they argue, should have been captured. Thus, to Greenwald, killing bin Laden is not defense against terrorist attacks, nor is it a military attack against a military figure, it is an illegal assassination. This is a perspective with which some human rights lawyers disagree, on the basis that bin Laden was engaged in leading the operations of al Qaeda, a military force, and had not surrendered himself. In a blog just after bin Laden was killed, Greenwald argued that bin Laden's killing violated the Democratic Party's supposed position that terrorism should be dealt with primarily as a criminal law enforcement problem and not through a war paradigm. Greenwald shows the lack of force behind that claim when he cites it, oddly, to George Will discussing John Kerry. If one asks John Kerry himself what he thinks about killing bin Laden or al-Awlaki, you get a different answer.
Once one decides that a criminal law enforcement paradigm must control dealing even with al Qaeda leaders, one can basically repeat the same point -- that killing violates legal norms -- by repetitiously cataloguing the ways in which killing bin Laden does not fit the paradigm of criminal law. The arguments are, essentially that: (1) that no criminal court adjudicated al-Awlaki's guilt, and that the Fifth Amendment requires such an adjudication; and (2) al-Awlaki has some First Amendment rights that were abridged by the Predator drone strike (Greenwald here off-topically cites a prior column criticizing the suggestion that people attending a treasonous speech should be arrested). To these points, Greenwald and those who echo him add the tautologies that the killing was an "assassination" (that's illegal, right?), and "murder" (hey, isn't that illegal too?) and "extrajudicial" to boot. (Isn't everyone killed in a war killed extrajudicially?) The entire set of points reduces to the speaker's assertion that you can only think of bin Laden (or al-Awlaki) as civilians requiring arrest and not military targets.
But if you favor the military paradigm in dealing with al Qaeda, as does, say, the United States Congress, the point that killing a senior al Qaeda leader is "extrajudicial" and not pursuant to trial, while true, is beside the point. For in the September 18, 2011 Authorization of the Use of Military Force, Congress committed to the discretion of the President the authority to hunt down and militarily attack "organizations or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001… in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such…organizations or persons." Notably, the AUMF is not restricted to people involved in 9/11; it allows hunting the responsible organization(s) to preempt future attacks. In this respect, Greenwald, formerly a practicing lawyer, is trying to do precisely what al-Awlaki's father did when he filed a civil suit complaining that his son is a military target: to use legal arguments to attack decisions and resolve questions that are fundamentally political and committed to the political branches to resolve, and which they in fact did resolve. For precisely this reason, a federal District Court rejected the father's suit to protect his son, citing the political question doctrine. As a matter of law, including in particular the U.S. Constitution, this outcome is correct.
And thus Greenwald's arguments that attacking al Qaeda should not be viewed through a military lens are one, long sustained attempt to talk past and around the existence of the AUMF. You see Greenwald misstating the law by ignoring the AUMF here, when he classes those who approve of bin Laden's death into two camps: "(1) those, largely on the Right, who believe the U.S. is at War and anything we do to our Enemies is basically justifiable; and (2) those, mostly Democrats, who reject that view -- who genuinely believe in general in due process and adherence to ostensible Western norms of justice" yet who view bin Laden as "such singular Evil…that they're…willing to waive away their principles just for him: creating the Osama bin Laden exception." To the Greenwaldian, there are only lawless extremists, or principled people who ordinarily would not kill al Qaeda leaders with military force but who abjured the rule of law in a Tourette's like fit for bin Laden alone. Yet as Adam Serwer wrote, if the AUMF means literally anything, it means the President can find and kill bin Laden. Next, we explore why finding and killing al-Awlaki is the same.
But Can America Legally Kill Citizen al-Awlaki, For Leading Terrorism Against the U.S. For al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula?
The short answer is yes, because, though a birthright citizen, he took up armed struggle against the U.S. He was, as Alexander Meleagrou-Hitchens wrote in what is the definitive treatment to this point of al-Awlaki's career, "a senior member of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula."
Anyone who wants to say that there is no hard intelligence or evidence of al-Awlaki being involved in AQAP terror plotting is wrong and uninformed. How about this e-mail? "Our highest priority is the US. Anything there, even on a smaller scale compared to what we may do in the UK would be our choice. So the question is with the people you have is it possible to get a package or a person with a package on board a flight heading to the US?" That's an e-mail from al-Awlaki to Rajib Karim, a computer specialist with British Airways who al-Awlaki was working with in an attempt to commit terrorist acts in the U.S. Karim was convicted of conspiring with al-Awlaki. Check out this supposed counterpoint op-ed in the New York Times by doctoral candidate Gregory Johnsen, which pooh-poohs the possibility of killing al-Awlaki. He's not the actual leader of AQAP, you see -- "he has always been a minor figure in al Qaeda." If that is the argument friendly to al-Awlaki's position, then with friends like that, he hardly needed enemies. Taking Johnsen's judgment at face value, al-Awlaki was a member of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula who was so insignificant that he didn't run all of AQAP, but who was nonetheless found by a jury in a criminal trial to have conspired to blow up jets.
As to the underpants bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, who failed to blow up an airliner nearing Detroit with explosives obtained in Yemen, we do not have access to the transcripts of Abdulmutallab's interviews with American interrogators. We do know, however, that AQAP claimed responsibility for that failed attack. We know that Awlaki has boasted that Abdulmutallab was his "student," and I do not think arguing that he received instruction from AQAP's top jihadist propagandist al-Awlaki that was unrelated to his jihadist mission passes the straight-face test. (Digression for the Greenwaldians: check out the Supreme Court's decision in Employment Division v. Smith (1990) (holding that there is no free exercise exemption from criminal laws of general application; meaning here, there is no First Amendment right to jihadi instruction as some sort of "free exercise", either in derogation of criminal law or the law of war). Another thing we know is that in asserting the state secrets doctrine in al-Awlaki's father's case, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper filed an unclassified declaration with one tantalizing excerpt derived from questioning: that "al-Awlaki personally instructed Abdulmutallab 'to detonate en explosive device aboard a U.S. airplane." I am not sure what basis there is to disbelieve this statement other than desire to disbelieve either whatever the government says, or whatever facts make al-Awlaki an operational figure.
And consider this. Clapper's declaration also states that al-Awlaki pledged an oath of loyalty to Nasir al-Wuhaishi, now the leader of AQAP and for four years the personal secretary to bin Laden. Consistently, when Yemen indicated its interest in apprehending al-Awlaki and putting him through a criminal trial (wait, I thought Greenwald wanted that!), the same Nasir al-Wuhaishi, warned publicly that AQAP was protecting al-Awlaki and that arresting him would be punished by AQAP with reprisals. This is consistent with the American government's explanation of his having a role in al Qaeda, as is, indeed, all of the foregoing evidence and more in Hitchens' paper than I have excerpted.
Finally, the Fort Hood shooter, Nidal Malik Hasan, like Abdulmutallab and Karim, was in contact with al-Awlaki before a planned crime. Like Abdulmutallab, al-Awlaki called Hasan his "student" and praised his actions afterward for their successful lethality. This is unsurprising, as al-Awlaki blogged (see Hitchens at p.72), "if a Muslim kills each and every civilian disbeliever on the face of the earth he is still a Muslim and we cannot side with the disbelievers against him." And before Hasan murdered, al-Awlaki had confirmed to him that is proper to kill innocents for the cause of jihad. As al-Awlaki put it, he "blessed the act." If you find that to be anything meaningfully different from a military authorization to an officer of inferior rank, then I'd respectfully suggest you are giving too much weight to religious trappings in the fact-pattern. Again, in our law, religion is not a defense to crime. It makes no difference whether a terrorist-organization atheist tells an outsider atheist that it's ok to kill, and then they do, or if it's cloaked in the words of a radical priest in Northern Ireland or a radical Imam in Yemen. The point is the continued contact with, involvement in, approval in advance of, and praise afterward, of murder. If this were the only example of al-Awlaki fostering terrorism, this would be a different matter. It is not.
This leaves the matter of citizenship, the shiny penny in the argument about al-Awlaki. To me, this is not a distinction that matters either in principle or law. A small number of Americans also fought for Nazi Germany during World War II. It cannot seriously be argued that U.S. forces were required to apprehend those Americans separately, and subject them alone to criminal trials for treason, while the Germans fighting around them could be shot as enemy soldiers.
By invoking the Fifth Amendment, Greenwaldians create the mistaken impression that it Constitutionalizes protections and rights to trial for citizens as opposed to noncitizens. This is wrong. As another liberal lawyer explains correctly within a hyperbolic antiGreenwald screed, the Fifth Amendment provides that "no person" can be deprived of liberty without due process. That protection extends to citizens and noncitizens alike who are subject to the power of the United States government, and it does not apply to war. Yes, folks, killing bin Laden and al-Awlaki is subject to the same analysis. Greenwald is consistent and believes both deaths are unconstitutional. While he gibes at people who view the bin Laden example as exceptional, the tension between the cases runs both ways. Meaning that, once you agree that bin Laden can be killed as an active senior leader of al Qaeda, then what is the distinction that saves al-Awlaki? There is none. Indeed, bin Laden was killed after a firefight on site, and did not surrender himself. Al-Awlaki was under Yemeni indictment and did not surrender himself to Yemeni or U.S. authority. He is another fugitive terrorist leader, indeed one with more recently successful terrorism, and more foiled plots, directly to his name.
Toward Limiting Principles in the War on al Qaeda
I am not sure what good it does to demonstrate that there is a factual basis to explain the killing of Anwar al-Awlaki. It feels like a true but empty exercise, because it misses the point, which is to consider with our eyes wide open where we are in American history. We are in the middle of permanent war. While America cannot declare war on a tactic, a rogue organization, or on the grievance that fundamentalist radical Islam has with America, Congress did authorize the President to use the military to attack, even preemptively, organizations responsible for 9/11. That includes al Qaeda, obviously. It amounts to an undeclared war, which is the hardest kind to end, as we have seen. And there is no end to it in sight. During the past eleven years, the American war effort in Afghanistan and Iraq has cost the nation more than $1.26 trillion. My reaction to learning of al-Awlaki's death, honestly, was that it was the second person who I actually knew of and felt comfortable was an appropriate death in the asymmetric conflict we have waged since 9/11. I would also be fine with Zawahiri being killed. While they yet send the Abdulmutallabs of the world strapped with bombs to kill, while they induce those vulnerable to their message to kill, it makes some sense to me to target the operational leaders of al Qaeda as targets. We have seen 100,000 Iraqi civilians die in a war that should never have been fought. That bothers me. Bin Laden and al-Awlaki do not. Because of the scale of civilian death in war, because of the hellish qualities of war Barack Obama correctly warned of in 2002, and yes, even because we cannot afford endless war, we need a principle that avoids the former category and scale of deaths, so we don't create propaganda for more al-Awlakis, and fuel a cycle of endless retaliation.
That is the hidden, important question we all avoid in our discussions of military versus criminal solutions, and which is not posed cleanly by the government authoring a memorandum justifying the killing of al-Awlaki standing alone. The question is what is the limiting principle to our thus-far unending involvement in the undefined war. Greenwald grapples with this question, of where our limit lies. His answer is that all drone strikes against al Qaeda transgress criminal laws. While absolutist and not likely to persuade the American public, his is one answer. It is distinctly unpersuasive because he maintains it even where justice indicates to most others that killing bin Laden was simply right, and also legal. But for Democrats, what is the real alternative to Greenwaldism? The suggestion that we must fight a War on Terror until we win, as I have written before, is a child's dream of true safety. Because one cannot eradicate all radical America-hating, a dream of total victory likewise fails to contain a practical limiting principle. As LBJ found in 1964, it is all too easy to defer hard questions about why we are in an intervention, or to give easy, hawkish answers to those hard questions. But we live in a time of increasingly limited financial resources, and are weary in particular of perpetual involvement in Afghanistan. Between the low approval numbers for the President's handling of Afghanistan, and the persistent modest popularity of Ron Paul on the GOP side, the American people are waiting for someone to suggest a principled limit -- beyond this line we will not cross. Whether it is once we pull out of Afghanistan, or once a critical mass of al-Qaeda leadership is incapacitated or killed, there needs to be a pivot to less killing.
In fairness to his critics, I think only President Obama is in a position to lead us to the next place. He has earned credibility with the right and the center he necessarily lacked on terrorism issues before assuming the Presidency. We need President Obama to declare a limited victory, and in justification, given that he is a political leader, to trumpet his successes in degrading al Qaeda, and then to accelerate the drawdown from Afghanistan. We need a doctrine that drones can be used sparingly, if at all, and with high justification in fighting evildoers who are linked to bombings and attacks planned for the U.S. We need to get out of the business of raining down drones in a wide variety of Middle Eastern countries, for other than depleting our depleted Treasury, most of what we thus do is buy more enmity and war. We need a smaller, narrower footprint. And we need someone to explain what that is. Like President Obama nine years ago, I'm not against all wars, I'm just against dumb wars. The death toll in Iraq, our weariness in Afghanistan, our successes in degrading al Qaeda with intelligence and drones, and the impossibility of truly winning a War on Terrorism tell me that a widescale military War on Terrorism is a dumb war. Yes, it's good that a few folks who caused and plotted terroristic deaths in America are dead. And I'll support strikes against equivalent folks in the future. But imagine that without an overseas occupation of note, and without the frequency of drone strikes you see today. Imagine it rare and judicious and provably necessary. From Occupy to the 2012 Presidential election, and in all our communications with the Congress that gave our Presidents an AUMF and an urging to wage permanent war -- and has not revoked it -- we need as one voice to articulate limiting principles. Lines between legalistic defeatism and total war. We have no other choice.
By Simon Romero, New York Times, May 24/25, 2013
RIO DE JANEIRO — The attacks have stunned this city. In one, an assailant held a gun to the head of a 30-year-old woman while raping her in front of passengers on a bus as the driver proceeded down a main avenue. In another, a 14-year-old girl from a hillside slum was raped on one of Rio’s most famous stretches of beach.
In yet another case, men abducted and raped a working-class woman in a transit van as it wended through densely populated areas. The police failed to investigate, and a week later the same men raped a 21-year-old American student in the same van, pummeling her face and beating her male companion with a metal bar. [.....]...
Really good article at Daily Kos - precipitated by the Skagit River bridge collapse. I hope all the Daggers are having a good Memorial Day weekend - keep our fallen soldiers' sacrifice in your hearts.
By Karl Vick, Time Magazine, May 22, 2013
For the cleric who runs Iran, there’s no such thing as a pleasant surprise, especially on election day. Ayatullah Ali Khamenei was not pleased when a librarian named Mohammed Khatami was swept into the President’s office in 1997, leading a wave of reformists who challenged the status quo in which Khamenei, as the unelected Supreme Leader of the Revolution, was most heavily invested. In every election cycle since, the self-appointed portion of Iran’s government has done all it can to winnow the choices placed before Iranian voters. On Tuesday, that system tightened the screen once more, ...
By Eric Lipton & Ben Protess, New York Times, May 23/24, 2013
WASHINGTON — Bank lobbyists are not leaving it to lawmakers to draft legislation that softens financial regulations. Instead, the lobbyists are helping to write it themselves.
One bill that sailed through the House Financial Services Committee this month — over the objections of...
By Jane Perlez, New York Times, May 24-25, 2013
BEIJING — The Chinese leader, Xi Jinping, bluntly told a North Korean envoy Friday that his country should return to diplomatic talks designed to rid North Korea of its nuclear weapons, according to a state-run Chinese news agency.
“The denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula and lasting peace on the peninsula is what the people want and also the trend of the times,” Mr. Xi said in a meeting at the Great Hall of the People with Vice Marshal Choe Ryong-hae, a personal envoy of the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-un, the China News Service reported.
Vice Marshal Choe, who has been in Beijing for three days on a mission to...
I believe Al-Awlaki was indicted for a max 6-10 years crime. Yemen could have picked him up any time they wanted. Hardly a green light for a targeted hit.
There are obviously ground to take out an American actively joining an army against the US.
1) are we at war with Al Qaeda in Yemen?
2) are we really proving all these accusations that Al-Awlaki had an operational role? (like Hussein was fielding biological weapons and armed drones?)
Yeah, you can approach it from both military & police - but the hard evidence has been awfully sparse in each. It's amazing to think if Awlaki had done all those evil military things, they couldn't get a sealed indictment for him in the US?
Instead it's relying on some 3rd country to justify this (didn't the UK do the same thing in the runup to Iraq - so we could say "the Brits have confirmed" and coast was clear?)
A lot of words to excuse a really sloppy action. And since we didn't defend the Turkish-American killed in the flotilla, I just see it another example of arbitrary "justice".
As I've said many times, I've no grief about killing any of these people - with a procedure, with a protocol, with some kind of real justification, rather than "they talked awfully mean about us".
I don't know what your basis is about the indictment. What indictment are you referring to? Also, what's your basis for the suggestion that the Yemenis could have picked him up any time? You are aware that much of Yemen is not functionally under the control of the central government, right? You're assuming away a potentially significant part of the argument with wrong facts.
As to your suggestion the al-Awlaki was killed for "talking awfully mean about us," I guess you didn't read the e-mails to Karim. You challenge the quantum of proof, but I just parsed some of it to you and pointed you to sources for more. Nonetheless, you make it sound like e-mails from al-Awlaki to Karim conspiring to commit airplane-bomb terrorism aren't what they say they are. You can't reasonably compare that to Blair vouching for undisclosed intelligence re Iraq. The trial is public record, the e-mails are out there. Are you saying they're inauthentic? (Seems not.) Rather, you're just kind of talking past their existence.
If they are authentic, how much more conspiring do you need to admit the guy conspired? You really ought to read Hitchens Junior's appendix to his long study of al-Awlaki, around page 80. It's very well sourced and describes the deceased's contacts with lots of different folks. You can sometimes get the primary materials through the Hitchens piece, which ought to be relevant to a fact-driven conclusion. Your suggestion that it's too many words is ironic since you were wanting me to write about Greenwald, then I do a carefully sourced and constructed piece around a point he hits hard, and you think it's too detailed. Or you don't like the facts that are the details, I think. In researching this piece, I found the state of the record to be far less of a close call you would like to think it is. If you can parse the facts as suggesting that he's not operationally part of al Qaeda, that would be interesting. But I don't think the evidence can be made to support that view.
If there's an email that's proof he was behind it, indict him and you've got it.
If that email doesn't prove it, well, you struck out.
Which is it? Really, conspiracy for an airplane bomb? No problem, indict him, come up with some rule to take him out. But without an indictment or some legal process? Forget it.
You conceded elsewhere in the thread that one can use both criminal law and the military as against terrorists. This comment takes the position that if you could indict or use the military, then the former seems generically to be preferable.
Does that rest in part upon your assertion that Yemen could simply bring the guy in at will?
Or even if you were wrong, is the West required, with smoking gun e-mails that stand up in British criminal court before a jury proving a conspiracy to put bombs in planes, to simply hold up its hands and say, we have this indictment but he won't turn himself in?
Domestic law enforcement and the criminal model worked great with bin Laden in Pakistan, don't you think?
I don't give a damn as long as they follow a criminal or military procedure that fits international norms of justice - process, precedent.
There's a possibility that binLaden was turned in by an informer, but that little nugget hasn't been confirmed by 2nd source.
But even our entry into Afghanistan assuredly wasn't with welcome arms, and i supported going in. The point again is process, precedent.
Seems like Bill set the precedent in 1998.
Process is for courts, not folks presently engaged in hostile operations. You aren't taking the bait (or debate) as to whether he was.
Maybe you reject the military altogether, then ok, that's a position. I can't tell from your comment what process you're claiming was absent here.
I suspect his argument is for an indictment, like U.S.A. vs. Usama bin Laden. But you are correct in noting that Clinton targeted Bin Laden for assassination before that trial in 2000.
This reminds me of when Clinton was interviewed on Fox News in 2006, where he said in his own words for the first time "I tried to kill him." I went around the liberal blogosphere looking, but could find nothing but cheers for Clinton's feisty performance, coming at a tough time for liberal politics. I was looking for the calls for him to be brought before justice for admitting to extra-judicial assassination orders, couldn't find any.
It would be a weird notion of due process to say that it's more ok to bomb someone after an indictment but before a trial. I hear people say, "At least they could have indicted him" or "At least they were working on an indictment of Khan". I understand not everyone's a lawyer, but geez, think about that. The mere fact of an indictment is meaningless. It's either conviction or let's not discuss the half-measure. Killing someone because the government merely indicted you. Yikes.
The difference is that we don't pre-try enemy combatants in a war. That takes you back on the flow chart to the start, which is are you a trial-only person or a war-paradigm-sometimes person. If you're the latter, the lack of trial isn't a dealbreaker. If you're the former, it is.
So I think Pericles is necessarily arguing for convictions.
You keep blending the 2 cases up for safety.
AFAIK there was decent proof of bin Laden's role with the Cole, the 2 African bombings and Khobar towers.
Being 4 military/embassy targets, there's good cause for treating this as a military exercise, and there's little restraint in taking out OBL any way you can, whether he were American citizen or not. Yes, you would run it by the appropriate military authorities to see where the case stands, but targeted assassination is not unwarranted.
Even in the Pakistani compound, a grenade through his window wouldn't have been a problem. It's once you capture him and then execute him you've stepped on thin ice. Remember the Vietnam picture of the officer who pulled out his pistol and shot a captive soldier?
With Al-Awlaki, the evidence of his bad deeds seems much more wishful and hearsay than actual hard evidence.
He definitely doesn't like the US, but then if you were a Mideast Muslim you'd be a bit pressed to find anyone with too much good to say about us. Awlaki didn't take down the twin towers. What did he take down? What are his actual crimes? And how come people are so unwilling to detail them?
"do you think his emails about bombing planes and preferring U.S. targets are invented?"
could be invented - if not, why isn't he being charged? did it not rise to the level of a crime? is it not enough indication of a military action that needs to be thwarted?
"Why isn't the UK jury conviction of a conspiracy by Karim and al-Awlaki to commit terrorism a valid conviction in absentia?"
Karim was convicted. Was Al-Awlaki indicted or convicted?
Then answer your own question:
"Why isn't the UK jury conviction of a conspiracy by Karim and al-Awlaki to commit terrorism a valid conviction in absentia? "
Don't you think UK prosecuters would charge al-Awlaki in absentia if they could?
If they did in fact, why don't you point to that, not Karim's conviction?
I.e. you're still playing guilt-by-association.
A conviction for conspiracy entails a finding that beyond a reasonable doubt, A and B reached agreement on a criminal end, and that the agreement is itself criminal.
Conspiracy is not "guilt by association." It's "guilt."
You still haven't explained how they can convict the one guy but not Awlaki if they were both guilty of the same thing.
Somehow I think you're missing a detail. That you don't really want to see.
I think it's because Rajib Karim was British, but Awlaki was not. I'm not sure that he was British, but I do know he worked for British Airways and it appears he committed many of his conspiracy acts in Britain.
You can try a conspiracy charge and prove it up without indicting each member. To convict any conspirator, however, you must prove the conspiracy, its object, and each party's agreement to it. Is what it is.
Sorry to burst your bubble there Piggy, but once you step outside the borders of the US your protections under the Constitution is null and void. You fall under the laws of the nation in which you reside and international law. You can seek assistance from a consulate if one is available and that depends on what agreements the US has with your host nation, but you're basically on your own. By the way , Yeman is a failed state ... there's only a puppet government and I believe the US has withdrawn it's ambassador. It's a lawless state.
Sorry, but as an American you're under US jurisdiction wherever you go, for murder, etc. as well as tax law.
That of course doesn't mean you don't face foreign laws as well.
But you don't give up your Constitutional rights just by leaving the country.
You can only exercise your constitutional rights in the US ... the Brits and French could care less ... you fall under the laws of the country in which you reside. And the US is the only country to tax individuals beyond their borders. The only way to avoid them is to prove the taxes paid in your resident country are greater than the tax owed to the US. As for jurisdiction, that depends on the host nation's treaties and agreements ... that american girl held in Italy for murder sure wasn't given her constitutional rights was she? I will clarify there is a difference between being outside the US borders on vacation and that of an ex-pat ... vacationers are given more latitude if they step over the line - depends on the law they violated and the damage incurred. Ex-pat's, such as Anwar al-Awlaki, are on their own ... they have no allegiance to their host country and their constitutional rights are mute. In other words, you're fair game. If the US can't convince your host country to detain and arrest you, they can take matters into their own hands on the sly depending on the severity of the issue.
I said you don't give up your American Constitution even while taking on a new system's.
So you can be tried for murder abroad under US law. As well as under Italian law if it happens there.
The Constitution does extend to those detained on the metaphorical field of battle in the terrorism conflict. That is why noncitizen Guantanamo detainees captured abroad by U.S. forces have habeas rights, and the constitutional right to be tried, whether civilly or before a military tribunal. But if the terrorist combatant doesn't surrender, they don't have a constitutional right to be treated as a criminal. Saying it over and over, and loudly (as Glenn does), doesn't make it so.
I thought Gitmo detainees had been denied habeas rights, and the constitutional right to be tried. That's why they're sitting there sucking eggs. (worse for the ones in Baghram or elsewhere we don't know about)
And a foreign combatant isn't automatically a 'terrorist' despite our loose definitions.
Again, Des, I am saying those in Guantanamo (and Bagram) have a constitutional right not to be detained indefinitely. That is my position, and it is a correct statement of American constitutional law, as explained in Hamdan.
No, a combatant isn't a "terrorist" because we say so. But unless you deny the application of the concept of war altogether (I don't, but it's a position one can take, I'm not trying to preempt you), then the government in an asymmetric conflict against terrorists is not required to arrest them before attacking them. The question in war, or in this quasi-war, is whether someone is a belligerent. That question is not determined in a criminal court in either case. Particularly because the conflict goes past nation-state borders that ordinarily operate as limits on attacks (though Yemen authorized it here, so that's not literally the issue), it's important in all matters like this one for a government waging asymmetric war to have a well-supported, particularized basis for its action.
I parsed the data about al-Awlaki and believe there was one here. If you have a counterargument from the data, fair enough, and I will hear it out.
i don't need a counter-argument: if the connection with a bomb to bring down a plane was close, they could indict Awlaki in a second. I let the civilian or military judge make that decision, but they didn't seem to go that route.
Prove Al-Awlaki is a belligerent or come up with inciting violence that's illegal or something.
And yeah, go back and get us a new AUMF cause we've beaten this one to shit.
Des, you don't seem to have a counterargument, but instead a normative preference that courts always be used. Indictments are nothing without convictions. So you're arguing that before supposed terrorist combatants are killed, they need trials. That's not the Fifth Amendment or the law of war, but so be it, I understand some folks like that idea better.
American legal and political culture is never going to adopt such a self-limiting notion of what war is, so you're probably better off helping get a new AUMF yourself, or arguing for clearer statements by the government of when it drones and why it drones, or limiting the circumstances in which it does. Your view, almost stated now, is that it simply never can, for it only can when it convicts criminally first. (Just like Clinton did with bin Laden, right?)
I am still waiting for a Greenwaldian to engage the actual facts about al-Awlaki in the Hitchens piece or even my shorter extract. It doesn't really get you to a place you want to be in an argument. Does Glenn have a column where he deals with that stuff, or is the trial thing just an exit ramp from having to address it?
"I let the civilian or military judge make that decision"
Though I think civilian courts are preferred where possible as being more just, yes. Don't you?
"Indictments are nothing without convictions. So you're arguing that before supposed terrorist combatants are killed, they need trials."
That's you concluding, not me. Indictments show there are actual charges to pursue someone. Without that, you just have suspicion - hardly a good basis for a judicial evaluation or a military strike.
Even military courts have equivalent of indictments, no?
"American legal and political culture is never going to adopt such a self-limiting notion of what war is" - my, let's give up, shall we? Before 9/11 we had a pretty clear concept. Spain and UK dealt with paramilitary terrorism as a bit separate from a full-scale war. The level of IEDs and other weaponry in Iraq pushed it over the edge to both war from terrorists plus civil war from competing factions.
You could also have an international terror organization, and you might get a declaration of war against that org. Or you could have multiple organizations, and you formulate your request to get a blanket authorization, or you go back one-by-one.
That's not that difficult to see, is it? So instead of an AUMF primarily designed to kick OBL's ass & smack down the Taliban, we're reusing this ragged piece of cloth to justify pretty unrelated events around the world. Or at least seem to be. Why so lazy?
I think Glenn is pretty much same position - find a way to charge them, civilian or military court, and then decide what's policy to apprehend or eliminate. If it's fully an operation as part of war, then make that justification. Greenwald was a public prosecutor - it's not like he wants all criminals to go free.
It's like if we talked about presumed innocence - no, I don't want to talk about the actual charges - they're irrelevant to rights of the accused.
You wrote:
Absolutely not factual.
Okay, my bad.
Yeah, will memorize his biography one more time.
Part of the issue is, "where's our war zone?"
Is it worldwide, so anyone with suspected ties with Al Qaeda can be summarily executed?
Is it in Yemen, Somalia, now Libya, plus Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, so anyone with suspected ties to Al Qaeda or somehow affiliated terrorist group can be summarily executed?
Does it include all of Iran who we contend lend support to terrorism?
It's one thing for the composite "Tokyo Rose" to (wo)man a radio station on Japanese soil. But when the whole world is considered somehow "enemy territory", there's no geographic relevance, and we've just done away with all extradition treaties in favor of knockoff.
The AUMF authorized striking at al Qaeda, and Yemen authorized drones there, so there is no lack of authority on either end.
Have been waiting for someone to argue that AQAP isn't al Qaeda, so I can say they are using the corporate form doctrine. Thus far, no one's gone there.
Ha ha ha. So you're going to let Yemen condemn an American to death, and not ask questions? And was Al Awlaki indicted for a capital crime like murder by the Yemenis? Were the Yemenis actually targeting Al Awlaki themselves?
You're scaring me. Qaddafi was targeting US soldiers in a disco, so if he let us set up drones in Tripoli, we coud target US soldiers in discos as well?
We can't delegate our constitutional obligations to other countries. If we want to take out a hit, we have to justify it, in criminal or military court or normal rules of war.
You're something like 20 comments into a thread and have avoided the specifics of the entire law and fact argument pieces above. Sign of weakness, friend...
Anyhow, you're misunderstanding. I'm not saying anyone is executing AAA over his Yemeni crimes. I'm saying that there's an American Congressional authorization for military force against al Qaeda, and that there's no violation of international law in discharging weapons against al Qaeda in Yemen, because Yemen permitted it in advance. So there is no illegality in the fact of the use of the military.
My piece unpacks the remaining, narrower questions that pertain to AAA, sources why AAA is a participant in al Qaeda, quoting his own e-mails and stuff. I didn't offload the analysis to Yemen or anything. I promise. Your position is apparently that he must be adjudicated guilty in a court before being sentenced to Predator Drones.
You wanted precedent? Precedent is reasoning from analogies, bro, meaning of course different cases. Clinton and OBL. Precedent. Back to you.
Again, you keep shifting things - I really don't like this way of debate.
"Your position is apparently that he must be adjudicated guilty in a court before being sentenced to Predator Drones." No, I said, over and over and over again "indictment" or equivalent. Not conviction.
And I told you why Clinton's passed the smell test.
Indictments prove nothing. The same DoJ that charges al-Awlaki in your suggestion works for Eric Holder and advises Obama about the legality of executive actions. Does your wish for an indictment mean you accept the legal opinions the President is receiving? Indictments aren't sincerity tests. Again, your whole argument amounts to a normative preference for prosecution.
How you can read Hitchens and then al-Awlaki's e-mails and think he's not an operational guy in terrorist ops for AQAP, just as Obama claimed? Do you think those facts are not indictable? Sorry the facts are that strong, but they are. Far from changing the subject, I've tried to get you to engage the facts of al-Awlaki that I was at pains to unpack, and the law. Found a lot of nice links, too...
It shows the degree of confusion that Greenwald's sophistry engenders that he's got a sliver of the polity charging about with the twin battle cries of due process and indictment. It's like saying that killing someone after impaneling a grand jury conferred a scintilla of process. It does not. The argument literally makes no sense.
Convening a grand jury and putting formal charges before it is a process.
It's not a trial. But it does confer a scintilla of process.
More than a smattering of anonymous and administration innuendo and speculation and unlikely scenarios:
http://www.emptywheel.net/2011/10/11/bank-transfers-of-mass-destruction/
Astounding, A-Man. One of my regrets is that among the small minded and self inclined shop keepers who today pose as statesmen there is not one who could bring such fine language to the heights of a Henry Clay or Daniel Webster.
And I was completely unaware of such things as the authority given in the Military Authorization Act.
I particularly like the proposition, and then the resolution to, the need for a limiting principal. You have teed this up very well for Obama. Let's hope he drives it home at the appropriate time against whomever among the motley crew of Republicans he faces in the election.
What does surprise have to do with any legal argument in this case? And even if we are not surprised that someone committed what we believe to be a crime, does that lack of surprise mean that our gripping about it is illegitimate? Without rehashing all the reasons, I will say that if Obama had authorized this same act the day after he was inaugurated that I would have been quite surprised. By the time I knew that he had authorized it I was not so surprised. By the time it happened I was not in the least surprised.
If I enter a poker game thinking it is probably honest and then in the middle of a hand in which I am highly invested I find that another player is a card shark, I will not be surprised if he deals underhanded. My choice then, if he is obviously more powerful than me or if I suspect he packing, is to get out and hope I can find an honest game.
To my mind, your long treatment of why we shouldn’t be surprised is a diversion from questions of whether it was a “right” action. It seems to be a pointless diversion unless it is an argument like a lawyer might use to enhance the jurors favorable predisposition towards a law officer on trial for shooting a gang member and who, evidence indicates, might well have used a “throw down pistol” to justify killing the guy with tattoos all over his body.
Tina Turner might have sung a song about this.
[You say]
It's mental
Only logical
You must try to ignore
That it means more than that
[But]
Oh what's surprise got to do, got to do with it
What's surprise but a second hand emotion
What's surprise got to do, got to do with it
Who needs a law when a law can be broken
Including the issue of Surprise made sense to me because it had been presented as the first time such a thing had ever happened. Apparently it wasn't.
And being the second person to throw a brick through a window does not change the legality, or pragmatism either, of that action even if you are surprised at who did it.
Outsourcing torture has long been done by our country. That was always wrong and I believe always illegal. If not, it should have been. What was new was Bush’s attempt to legalize torture done directly by us and also to get the public to approve of it. To a very great extent, they succeeded. It was expected that those who did not approve would just have to accept it. Obama has heroically gone back to only outsourcing torture and we do not hold him accountable for a serious ongoing crime against humanity. No one even wants to prove a violation of a law that they want to ignore anyway. Obama could, though, get away with ordering an agent of our government to directly torture a detainee, even an American citizen, anytime he chooses by declaring a national security reason and he, presumably, will not be obligated to present evidence of any [psychopathically] justifiable reason. We have not slipped to the bottom of any shit covered slope. Yet. If we find it torture has been used on someone who has been demonized by our government through unidentified leakers to our press and accepted, rightfully or wrongly, as a ticking time-bomb, [How should we know?] should we be surprised if the action is held as being elegal. It has been declared legal by default. We have notched up to trying to justify and establish acceptance of extrajudicial killing of American citizens based on reasons that arguably would not justify killing them even if they were not citizens.
I voted for Obama. That was an honest mistake that I will not let cause me to apologize for actions which I believe cross a line into territory that other governments in other countries at other times have have crossed on their way to becoming “obviously’ without justification to continue to exist as representative of a civilized law abiding society
I am, frankly, surprised at some of the people who flip flop so radically on what is defensible, apparently based only on who does the indefensible. I am surprised at some of the people who seemingly let emotions about a particular individual so thoroughly cloud their judgment about the significance of how that individual is treated.
I would bet that some black men who got lynched were actually guilty of serious crimes. Knowing, or at least believing, that to be the case was one factor allowing lynching to be acceptable to many people. After all, any black man was a likely threat and if he was accused of acting in a threatening way by an upstanding citizen then that was good enough for many. Screw evidence, screw process, find a rope. When our country was still on a long path towards closer adherence to our stated fundamental beliefs, that practice of lynching black men and never trying to bring the lynchers to justice was halted. I wanted our government to follow the law and convict O.J. I wanted conviction because I believed him to be guilty. I would have also wanted anyone who participated in lynching him, if that had happened, to be brought to justice. At the bottom of some slippery slopes are a whole bunch of gallows.
So we've moved beyond surprise to a more general rant ...
I appreciate that you admit voting for Obama after he stated clearly that he'd bomb al Qaeda, including bin Laden, in Pakistan. He did precisely what he said, but you apparently regard that as a violation of international law and a crime against humanity. We simply disagree.
They shot Osama bin Laden at close range. Seems questionable whether armed or struggling, but seems to have been captive at time.
I would have wanted him on trial - military or civilian. Awful to give up that chance.
You should click on the link above to the human rights lawyer's opinion as to the killing of bin Laden. A military leader engaged in continuous support of their military is fair game for the opposing military before he surrenders. Or so she says.
But I think your argument has more force as to OBL than AAA. AAA never turned himself in despite a Yemeni warrant, and was a fugitive.
So many words, so much nonsense.
The basic point was he appeared to be apprehended. And then shot. And then his body disposed of. I might even be sympathetic that there was no guaranteed safe way to extradite him so they did a real quick trial, roughly 7 seconds of vigilante justice.
But certainly OBL must have been charged with crimes, no? And taking out an operative leader of a terrorist org is not something we're complaining about - treat him with military or civilian. It's once you capture them, you typically don't have the right to execute. A sniper shot could have taken the moral ambiguity out of the question ahead of time, but it didn't.
So defending vigilante justice because because because instead of calling it by its name is rather lame.
Look, would it be part of the AUMF if they held down bin Laden and sodomized him?
The AUMF doesn't overrule Geneva Conventions or other military precedent.
If they killed Obama bin Laden once in custody, it's different than a fire fight in pursuit.
This should be obvious.
No, your summation is nonsense, not her statements.
She says, "What about the fact that he was an evil terrorist with the blood of thousands on his hands? If he was “hors de combat” that would be a matter for judge and jury to sort out, not Navy Seals. "
That's pretty much exactly what I said. If he's already captive, then executing him is illegal. If he's being captured and resists, then executing him is likely just part of the chase.
And why I'm not arguing these other points is I don't care - point me to a legal policy of why OBL and AAA are wanted, and what the agreed measures are to apprehend them. Under civilian and military law, under military rules of engagement.
Certainly their cases will differ.
I know what OBL's crimes are. I presume at least some of them are in indictments or documented as military acts of aggression. Killing him under most circumstances would be warranted. Killing him as a non-resisting captive is not one of them, aside from being sentenced to die. (okay, if Pakistani helicopters are trying to stop his escape, a little fall out of the helicopter might be nudge-nudge-wink-wink warranted)
What she's saying is, until the general surrenders, he can be shot. I don't get what you don't get about that. Again, as I pointed out upthread, you ought to read the documentation of al-Awlaki's terrorism, and then rejoin the thread. He met with Abdulmutallab and instructed him to detonate a device. Did Bill Clinton have declarations of interviews with colleagues of OBL's before he launched the cruise missiles in 1998? We have al-Awlaki "blessing" the Ft. Hood slaughter, and telling Karim to seek American targets. Did Bill Clinton have OBL's admissions in his own e-mails like that when Bill tried to take him out? You are using "documented" as a proxy for your naked preference that one act is good, and the other bad, nothing more. It's a pretense of caring about facts you ignore.
"We have al-Awlaki "blessing" the Ft. Hood slaughter, and telling Karim to seek American targets. "
So everyone who was glad about 9/11 is a terrorist, and anyone who's ever said "kill Americans" can be taken out with a drone strike. Instructing someone to detonate a device sounds much worse - indictable. But then again, I hear Hussein is off looking for yellowcake in Niger.
So put it before a grand jury and see if they'll indict. Or find a proper military commission to do the same thing. Oh so tough? You'd think the death penalty would have a certain threshold besides he said, she said.
There's a difference between saying "we should kill Americans" and
Just sayin'...
Agree that's more specific. Did Awlaki say that? Is it confirmed? Any idea why there were no charges?
Yes, Awlaki said that (or rather, he wrote that in an e-mail). It's a quote included in Articleman's piece above, with sources. My guess as to why there were no charges is that this was a British court, and Karim was involved with British Airways, but Awlaki was not, but that's just a guess.
This is what I meant about asking you to read the facts. I appreciate your agreement.
You use the word "admit" with a connotation that is unwarranted and in a case which has many distinctions from that of al Alwaki. You have tried to make a point using a subtle misrepresentation and if that is deliberate I do not appreciate it, and, it is a point not closely related to the important questions about al Alwaki's case. But yes, I was for going after bin Laden, but that does not mean I agreed with all the actions involved with his execution either. I have a further response coming to a response by you below that is actually pertinent to your blog, but here you seem to indicate that if a person could be executed legally that it is OK to execute them illegally and so someone who supported going after the criminal is being inconsistent if they disagree with the methods used no matter those methods.
There's no misrepresentation, subtle or otherwise, and you're free to plead offense if you like, it is the Internet, after all. I think voting for Obama after he said the matters to which I linked is quite relevant to the debate, and you're free to disagree if you like.
I welcome your response to the substance of the piece. When you respond, if you explain why a military response to an al-Qaeda leader is illegal or criminal, I'll explain why you're incorrect, though I think I already did that.
The piece was positioned as an overview of the arguments on the terrorist killing, in the context of how in the writer's view the sum of arguments begs a definition of a limiting principle. One of the oft repeated arguments in most discussions was that of "surprise". Thus the piece logically included a discussion of "surprise".
Hi LULU. My legal argument is in the second and third parts of the piece. The first part (about surprise) is simply that it's wrong if anyone voted for Obama to act surprised or indignant that he'd go bomb al Qaeda folks. That's the point. If you didn't vote for him and were always against that military action and it mattered to you, then you are consistent in your point of view. Greenwald's arguments are consistent on these points. Yours may be too.
I disagree that I don't discuss whether it was right. I am not sorry to not treat it in 150 words or less. I think the killing deserves more than five minutes of argument either way. Your comment's point seems to be not to engage the part of the piece about whether it's legal (e.g., the AUMF, the Fifth Amendment, Employment Division v. Smith) or the part about al-Awlaki e-mailing people about blowing up planes. These facts are not easy to explain or discuss if one is committed to the proposition that the use of military force against him is necessarily wrong.
It is precisely because I consider the legal question to be the important one that I asked what surprise had to do with the question of legality. Your opening argument attempting to conflate the idea that we shouldn’t be surprised with an action with the conclusion that the action was therefore justified seemed to be an important argument to attempt to rebut since I think it is both incorrect to say that surprise is not warranted but also an attempt to say that a vote for Obama was, by anyone who tried to stay informed, a vote for what he did in this case. That stance is not logically supportable, or at least you did not support it to my satisfaction. Surprise, based on his campaign rhetoric, is warranted and indignation, based on his action, is the only consistent, ethically responsible, reaction.
You brought up the idea that we shouldn’t be surprised as part of your total argument. Your response with evidence that we had reason to expect Obama to go after al Qaeda is completely non-responsive, and apparently evasive, to the question of whether we had reason to be surprised at the Nobel Peace Laureate Constitutional scholar’s very debatable authorization of the killing of an American citizen in the well covered circumstances that surrounded this particular act.
The fact that I addressed one point of your essay and did not engage at any length or in any detail with arguments about legality certainly does not mean that I am not aware of strong arguments opposed to your view, arguments made by legal scholars and other, that I could have cited like so many have done in so many places, so many times. Failing to respond to every point you made does not mean my response to one point you made is somehow disqualified. What it means is that I chose to dispute, right here and in my own words, one particular assertion made by you right here in your own words.
When you're ready to bring an argument about the law or the facts here, I'll be happy to respond.
Wow, excellent blog, well sourced. I saved a document for all the sources so I can read them all, which it seems will take some time.
Thanks AMan, I don't know anything about the law, and I find it as enlightening as it is interesting.
Thanks.
The Hitchens piece is a pretty amazing study of al-Awlaki. Also, al-Awlaki's Wikipedia page is well done, though I find the Hitchens piece more informative and laden with original sources of use.
Truly an outstanding piece A-man. I loved how, after giving the legal justification, you insert this bon mot:
It's exactly what I was feeling several paragraphs earlier.
I think the micro and the macro both matter here, and if you miss the one, your point of view on the other suffers. My two cents.
What you said. Two more cents.
I've re-read this a few times, and I'm not sure if this is a general comment recapping your piece or if this was meant as a response. If the latter, then I'm guessing you thought there was sarcasm or something in what I wrote. Just to be clear, I was not being sarcastic in the slightest. I truly liked your piece, and I liked how you made it clear (to me, at least) that although you fully supported the legality of the action that you were conflicted on the morality or advisability of the action.
No worries. I'm sarcastic often enough that I realized that if one assumed I was being sarcastic in that original comment it could have come off completely differently than I intended.
Superb. I will latch onto those talking points, as I have had no luck articulating any of them myself. All I know is what I feel in my gut. Thanks for giving me reasons.
My gut is queasy on it all. Not everything legal is good. Having an argument about legality, whether superficial or not, is hardly the final answer. It is worth something to debunk incorrect claims of illegality, but we can't make the law suit what we want it to be by yelling at it.
We are, however, allowed to elect leaders who change what they do, and we are allowed to ask our elected officials to change the laws. This is a political question. That's where the discussion needs to be directed.
Nice work A-man. Really excellent.
Gracias, Bruce.
On the "this war needs a limiting principle" question, all my reading tells me that, (as candidate Obama suggested) President Obama is working on decimating the leadership of the organization of Al Qaeda and the leadership of any supporting organizations as completely as possible in order to stick to a timeline of withdrawal of military forces from Afghanistan. So that one can leave Afghanistan before it is properly reconstructed (ala Germany after WWII,) because proper reconstruction via foreign military is probably a hopeless task. It's a "drone surge" so to speak, in order to give all currently failed states that generally look to have a good chance of having a majority of anti-al-Qaeda ideology (whatever it is, yes, even Islamist) a jump start without those al-Qaeda leaders there or able to return to those states.
See for example Somalia, right now.
I don't see the lack of clarity about this "war plan" that you do. Reading reports of what's happening over time, I do see a plan to decimate the of al Qaeda and its sympathizers, and not an endless battle against evil terrorists. And I do see it happening so far. But I also see much room for disagreement about whether it is the right plan and/or counter-productive.
An added point. Drone and missile targeting is based upon human intel that could be faulty. (Same with Bill Clinton and a factory in Sudan, I should add.) One could be against it for that reason and support only hand to hand combat instead, where the intel is much clearer, you get face to face with the old enemy. Though the rules about wearing uniforms and representing states (and the slaughter-of-a-generation numbers) aren't what they used to be in the "good old days." Oh wait, the enemy doesn't agree to fight hand to hand but wants to use IED's, suicide bombers and targeting civilians and civilian society.
Maybe, maybe not. Glad I'm not in charge.
Also glad neo-cons are no longer in charge with their ideas about turning everyone in the mideast into happy suburban capitalist democrats via ground warfare liberation.
I will say that I am all for less soul-stirring warfare. I think passion and warfare are not a good mix. Nor are WMD's and warfare--collateral damage, see Nagasaki & Hiroshima, Dresden, etc. Armed drones are an attempt to cut down on the use of big missiles and their collateral damage, even Jane Mayer agrees that is the case.
The main point of my comment, though, was addressing Articleman's point, that I see a clear plan. It wasn't to defend or attack the plan, but that I believe there very clearly is one. All you have to do to see it is to keep up with the news about the drone strikes as they happen, along with a bit on testimony from military brass to Congress and a blogger or two who focuses on military policy and not politics.
Hi aa. I wish I agreed with you. I agree that we are trying to decimate AQ leadership. But when will that have occurred? How will we know? Who will tell us? How long do we allow ourselves to decimate AQ before we say uncle? Or before we say, we will use drones only in rare cases or in response to new attacks or according to standards that are more clearly stated to create bounds on the use of this tactic? There are no stated metrics, timelines, or expected exit points. There is ad hoc justification of individual measures that I am willing to assume often have valid ad hoc justifications. But for an eleven year campaign, I'd like more clarity than vague bromides from brass on the Hill.
If Obama doesn't create a narrative of exit (and yes, before faraway 2015 or so) and of success, what will President Perry, Romney, Christie, Rubio, etc. do? My less Obama-liking friends say Obama has set the table for their excesses. So I call for something between war without end and a futility hypothesis. People seem to accept, or even prefer, if their views are described accurately, one of those two options. And the government's narrative on what we're doing is to me very hard to follow and not well-stated or managed, for the reasons I set forth in the preceding paragraph's rhetorical questions.
I also am unwilling to assume that our drone strategy is linked to Afghanistan. We are using drones in Yemen, which is far away. I also think our Somalia policy is a failure, given the huge number of starving Somalis. And if it is linked to Afghanistan, ok, but we're leaving it many years later than we should, so I'm not pleased there.
The place the Administration most has it right, IMO, is Pakistan.
Just a suggestion. If you haven't read it, this is not fun night table reading but it might clear some things up:
I noted another good summary paragraph of the 2011 National Strategy in this recent Xinhua article relating to the al-Awlaki assassination, as relates to same, my bold highlighting:
BTW, the June 2011 Counterterrorism Strategy is not top secret; I believe it is also available, and was even promoted when released, on the White House website.
The National Strategy Document is a well-written treatment of what the government has done effectively, and what it plans to do, in the current frame. The document is very frank in promising continued war until an "ultimate defeat" of al-Qaeda. I think that's like saying we'll fight a war on disagreement, or until we're perfectly safe. I find it improbable that we will ever eradicate all antiAmerican terrorism in the world. That doesn't count as an answer to my request for a bound. When we're safe isn't the answer. The question is when to declare that you are done. We as Americans have a hard time with that, I'll say understandably.
Despite the Greenwaldian fundamentalism about trials for avowed holy warrior-terrorists, I am fine with the occasional drone strike with cause, but not with spending over $100BB per year forever fighting a few guys in caves with shitty websites. We can do better.
BTW
The trial of Abdulmutallab, the "Underwear Bomber" has begun. It started like a week ago with jury selection. (I was going to post in the news section at the time, but then I thought, why bother, no one here is interested.
) As he has been permitted to represent himself as he demanded, should be interesting:
One kind of limitation that could be developed is to take the already established rules about declaring war and strictly require that the use of force of any kind must be sanctioned through complete official recognition that our people are at war with these other people. The result will be a course of action proposed by the Executive and adopted by the Legislative that relieves the Justice department from the job of dealing with the people who are involved the theater of war. That sort of invocation has its own moral hazard, as the wars of the last three hundred years have shown, but it did require commitment that the most recent conflicts were designed not to require at all. It is like those ads promising that you can learn German in your sleep.
Covert and undeclared wars share a distinctive quality, they are licenses to kill, handed out because the situation is so out of control, no other means are available. This matter of means is not just a problem within our polity but in other states. I don't think it is possible for the U. S. to pursue national interests while restricting the use of force without developing international law that it helps build up. You can't solve a problem that has grown within the system of States by just changing how things are done in just one. The neo-cons are exactly incorrect.
Your first paragraph appears to me not to resolve, or at least to leave opaque, the question of asymmetric war against terrorists. Can you have it? If so, how would you make your solution compatible with stepping across national borders? We can strike terrorists or groups with which we'd be "at war" constitutionally, so long as we have local permission?
I take responsibility for the opacity.
I brought up the established means of declaring war to provide a background to all the various explanations of why those procedures have become commonly understood to be no longer equal to the task at hand (hands?). I am thinking the generational thought that we have appeared to have gone through Vietnam without making a single advance upon the difficulty that comes from not singling out our enemies. Why not make those procedures better and more capable to address the challenges at hand? One democratic thought is that we could change how things happened without dissolving the republic beforehand. That means we could change how wars are started. If we don't go to the beginning, there is only management of the aftermath.
So yes, we can declare war on people without the state containing the group giving permission. But what rights do we give up in return? The idea that a transaction hasn't occurred is fantastic.
Agree 100% with AMan.
Not to diminish the fine arguments of AMan, Anwar al-Awlaki is, simply stated, a mere squished bug on the grill of the runaway train called the GWOT, started by GWB.
It's a train that took down a nation of 25 million that was no threat to us, bungled the invasion/occupation of both Iraq and Afghanistan, ended or ruined the lives of hundreds of thousands, funded the terrorist haven of Pakistan with no demands for action to restrain it's terror networks, tortured people, claimed it didn't torture, then said the torture saved lives, spread rumors of an Iraq/Saddam/anthrax threat immediately after 9/11, and then, on 9/11, started on CIPRO at the White House before the first anthrax letter was mailed. Richard Cohen (WashPost) in 2008 on Slate: 'I had been told soon after Sept. 11 to secure Cipro, the antidote to anthrax. The tip had come in a roundabout way from a high government official'. The first letter was sent to the 'photo editor' of a tabloid that had run photos of the partying Bush twins. Two others were sent to Democratic leaders. Who benefited from the deaths and hysteria, which helped turn the nation to war? The results of the 10 year Amerithrax investigation are still being questioned as late as this week in a study done by members of the National Academy of Science in the peer reviewed Journal of Bioterrorism and Biodefense. They say Ivins couldn't have done it alone, if he was involved at all.
Obama doesn't hide what he does, he lays it out straight and level. He is not ginning up another war, or scaring us into another invasion like the last GOP administration. He is doing what he feels is legal and necessary to attack those who would attack us in order to keep this country safe.
Well, not that it compares to Iraq, but there was Libya…
Then how come daddy is being nice to Republicans? They're trying to steal our freedoms and close down Medicare & Social Security.
I prefer our government act legally, but I couldn't care less whether it was legal or not to kill al-Awlaki. Either way, it was so obviously wrong. (One precedent we could point to is the rich history our government has with doing horribly wrong things that are legal.) I appreciate that smart people are earnestly defending Obama's and other presidents' actions as legal, just and not surprising. Attempting to do good is a first step to doing good. But there's no middle ground here. It's simply wrong. Let's limit ourselves to capturing the accused and putting them on trial. Because there really is no middle ground to occupy here. If al-Awlaki or bin Laden or Ted Bundy ought to have their heads on a pike, so should Lloyd Blankfein. In fact, that's a piece that could fit in nicely around here these days:
Lloyd Blankfein: A Justified Death in a (Class) War
"show trials"? That's a pretty insulting term for "due process"
If an indictment without a trial is good enough for you (given that a "grand jury will indict a ham sandwich" much less a guy making prominently-reported anti-U.S. terrorist tapes) why isn't the following? Seriously.
Dec. 7, 2010--the judge in the case his father & the ACLU brought went on and on and on with suggestions about how Mr. Awlaki could get due process. The judge seemed to have thoroughly checked out how Al-Awlaki was not "incommunicado," how easily he seemed to be able to communicate with many people in the U.S., as well as the world, and figured he was smart enough to figure out how to turn himself in to the courts for due process without being killed. The judge did not seem to buy that he couldn't do that because of the threat of death. It is implied, however, that he would have to say something along the lines of "I'd like to dispute that I am at war with the U.S.A., give me protection from this order." He had over 9 months to do that. Apparently he didn't deem it important or desirable to do that during that time. When I said he went on and on, this quote is just a part
Again, nonsense. Indictment without trial is pre-trial process. Habeas corpus. If the indictee is unavailable for trial, and you need justification to apprehend, that certainly is the procedure. If it's in a military context, the rules are likely somewhat similar, especially when we play worldwide battlefield.
You're way out of your league asserting that the fact of a criminal indictment before executing someone represents a quantum of process. Obama's DOJ says bombing is legal and you cry foul; if a line prosecutor in the same DOJ types the same allegations in the a document captioned "Indictment", now the guy had "due process" and there is then a better argument for bombing him? That's the nonsense, dude.
But you also said that, "I believe Al-Awlaki was indicted for a max 6-10 years crime. Yemen could have picked him up any time they wanted," both of which are patently false, as was credentialing the firebagger lawyer whose points you're repeating as a prosecutor. And again, you wave your hand at Clinton trying to kill OBL (Clinton's words not mine), but you pretend the weight of facts I linked to about al-Awlaki's terrorism and which you ignore aren't "documented." Why? Your say so? Your normative view of the world isn't the gatekeeper of what is "documented." Read Hitchens and the underlying sources (I did) and come back and acknowledge that the guy was a terrorist but say you think he shouldn't be killed anyway. That would be a much more intellectually honest approach.
Where's the grand jury in your indictment? All you work on is word of mouth - Obama says or flack lawyer writes something. Granted the next step isn't a huge leap, but a formal indictment is a formal process. All else might as well be the op-ed page.
Regarding the difference between Al-Awlaki & OBL, taking out Khobar towers & the Cole is an operational exercise. Now maybe I overstate the case against OBL, maybe they couldn't get an indictment against him. But you never answer that - you just have Clinton smugness somewhere. And you never tell me why they fuck they don't go and indict Awlaki if he's so fucking guilty. If they have all the evidence, they can convict him in absentia. Instead you pull up a conspiracy conviction of someone else, and contend that proves him guilty. Well why isn't he charged then - obviously they have a ton of evidence in the trial.
Define "Terrorist", by the way. Operative or instigator? Does it have to be an Arab?
Silly me, I thought the attack on the Cole was in October 2000, and the attack on OBL was in 1998.
Here's some help with the concept that not all indictments are from grand juries.
I don't know why in a Congressionally authorized military operation against al Qaeda requires indicting any particular member of al Qaeda before attacking them, including Osama bin Laden. That's your premise, or bald assertion, not mine. We could debate whether that might be a good idea. It might be clearer that way. But it is not constitutionally or statutorily required, nor consistent with American military history.
I don't have inside information about why this al-Qaeda leader who directed the underpants bombing and recruited for al-Qaeda and conspired with Karim toward bombing American targets and blessed in advance the slaughter at Fort Hood by his e-mails with the mass murderer was drone-bombed instead of charged with a crime in absentia and then drone-bombed or simply charged and let to walk the earth in lawless rural Yemen. And I don't know much about the travel habits of Mr. William Santiago either.
It's good that you're up for convicting people in absentia. You might want to check with Greenwald on that too, he probably doesn't think that's due process either, though it probably beats an indictment, which is kind of the ace-high of due process arguments.
as a non-expert in matters of law, as are most people, I think a blog on the nature of "due process," the constitution and individual rights would be beneficial for discourse here and elsewhere. The example that always comes to my mind is that on one hand we have a right to due process, but if one is holding some hostages and threatening their life, then a SWAT sniper can bypass all of that due process stuff and "take 'em out." In other words, there are some accepted exceptions to the rule and therefore one's claim to due process is not absolute. But is in reality, the sniper being unconstitutional?
The kernel of due process under the U.S. Constitution is notice and an opportunity to be heard. That varies in context; we provide fewer but some procedural safeguards in administrative law, like a benefits hearing; we guarantee counsel in criminal but not civil cases; we have limits on process for safety and administrative ease in prison; and military tribunals have truncated procedures and rules of evidence.
The concept of due process does not apply, or alternatively is fulfilled beyond question, when law enforcement uses deadly force as a proportionate response. Summary executions for crime without a trial violate due process, but neither police killing someone where deadly force is necessary, nor killing enemies in war implicate due process considerations. You can't get an injunction against being killed in either situation, and there's no law that would permit it if you tried.
And as the judge in the al-Awlaki civil case pointed out (I linked in the piece to the District Court's decision), the question of authorizing and employing military force is a political question courts can't adjudicate. It is committed to the struggle that is politics. And that is where more just rules or policies will be found or fashioned, if they are to be found at all. In the back and forth of politics.
Thanks for the response.
Maybe what the whole debate boils down to is whether the response is "proportionate response."
Trope,
Note that at the beginning of kgb's thread on the issue, the first comment, by donal, was basically asking "but what about the old 'wanted dead or alive posters'?" And bslev and richard day chime in, basically saying yes, that that is related.
Despite the important difference of the Al Awlaki case being defended as war and the "FBI most wanted" list being about domestic crime, in both cases I think most people aren't troubled that much precisely when the accused is/are seen as making a public spectacle about NOT having the least interest in applying for due process, but rather are rejecting the law or the society/nation as a whole. When it's clear right from the horse's mouth or actions that "due process" is the last thing they want. That they want rather to continue with committing crimes and remaining free, or with war. I think it's pretty common for common folks to see it as one has to surrender to get "due process" in war or civil society, and also common to see people horrified by someone surrendering not being given due process. Even in the civil law, you have to surrender your fate to what the law will decide.
I think that everybody who decries obama policy against terrorism should not forget his personal situation. You can assume that he has got in his three years in office for sure more death treats than all other presidents in the last century together. And it's understandable that this fact has an influence on his policy, specially when his life depends on the very same people he should investigate.
You're going to "assume" something that's not proven and using a personal fear as justification to go hunt down people? Christ.
And by the way, I don't know if JFK received any death threats. He just received a bullet through the head. So what does your formulation say to that?
I've been thinking on this some more and I like to add the following rhetorical questions for all those really upset about this, including the Christopher Hitchens types who are ambivalent.
How come Al-Awlaki is so very much more deserving of consideration for or demands for due process than many of the estimated 1,600 to 2,600 people on this very long list of killed by U.S. drones in Pakistan from 2004 to the present?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan#Timeline
How come he's the only one that gets the benefit of so many people demanding to see what he did wrong and so many demands that he get due process?
Because he's a dual citizen? Because he spoke English?
Because we are at war with Pakistani al Qaeda & Taliban but not with those who call themselves Al Qaeda of the Arabian Peninsula? Even if the latter often clearly say to the world that they are at war with the U.S. and it's civilians, but we haven't much of a clue what most of those others did or said?
Because killing Pakistanis is part of the war on terror but killing dual citizens who are members of Al Qaeda of the Arabian Peninsula members in Yemen is not?
Are you sure none of those other people weren't dual citizens? How do you know for sure?
Maybe because if you don't know what they did, it's not worth arguing about? But because you know that Al Alawaki declared war on U.S. civilians on videotape and the others didn't, it is worth arguing about?
What is the rationale? Where is your argument really coming from?
Seriously, what is the difference between him and them?
Note: If you look under 4 Oct. 2010 on the wikipedia link, you will see the Germans got upset about a German citizen which they had terrorist-related intel on being killed in one of the attacks.
Perhaps it is the case that everyone wants to give special rights to their own citizen terrorists "over there," but who cares about those Pakistanis?
Somehow a Western terrorist fighting in the same theater requires due process because they are not real combatants, but criminals? However, Pakistani and Afghan terrorists are the real enemy combatants, not criminals?
I had precisely that exchange offline yesterday. The answer I got was that the whole difference is citizenship. But, I pointed out, even the Reconstruction-era civil rights laws that extend their protections on their face to "citizens" are construed to apply to all persons, including illegal immigrants. Thus it is that the Fifth Amendment's right to due process extends to citizens and noncitizens. They are the same.
But you can run the argument both ways, importantly. The use of force to GG could always violate due process, or to the war paradigm folks could always be legal.
But citizenship is not the talisman here. By way of illustration, both citizens and noncitizens held without charges at Guantanamo sued for habeas relief. By 5-4 including Justice Kennedy, the Supreme Court held that noncitizens held indefinitely at Guantanamo had a right to seek habeas relief. By 8-1, the Justices agreed that citizens likewise held had the right. The dissenter? Clarence Thomas. So to Roberts, Alito, Scalia, and Greenwald, citizens have more rights in the GWOT. To the four liberals and Kennedy they all have the same habeas right; to Justice Thomas they both lack the right. Cheers.
Your question has an obviously false assumption. Many, if not most, who feel that the government crossed an arbitrary but important line in the way that they took out al Alwaki are also those who have spoken up about the cavalier wasting of innocents, though due process was not voiced as a remedy. They have spoken their objections on moral grounds such as those grounds addressed in just war theory, and on pragmatic grounds because of the hate that is created, and the the ridiculous monetary costs of creating a need for more intrusive spying within our own borders of our own people to protect us from the results of that hate. They are aware of the problems of fighting border less combatants. They want their country to be safe while being as fair to the rest of the world as is possible. Arguments about the action against al Alwaki are special case debates that do not speak to opinions about the deaths of other non-combatants in other countries.
At home we have been in a decade long period of losing civil liberties while not directly feeling, yet, the loss of those liberties, although some of the occupiers of Wall Street might have had a different experience based on what our laws are allowing. You know the slippery slope arguments. Unless you consider all of them to be completely unfounded, unless you feel that we can trust our current and future leaders to be benevolent and just in unaccountably wielding every bit of power that they seem to be determined to grab, then you should be able to see how this case has become a focal point for the time being. It is not the only thing, it is only the current thing, probably for another day or so at best. Or worst. The starting point for the next parameter stretching precedent has slid a bit further down from the high ground that we, ideally, claim to strive for.
Al Alwaki was an enemy of the U.S., although I hold that for special reasons, not necessarily related to participating in a war, he was in a special category that should have made us give him special consideration that he did not personally deserve. Hitchens is a legitimate enemy to al Alwaki’s chosen side for exactly the same reasons and to exactly the same extent. I doubt that al Alwak ieffectively made our geo-political situation worse or materially increased the threats our country faces, and I very much doubt that being swayed by the same rhetoric he used but aimed in the opposite direction by Hitchens will make our situation move towards the better. Hitchens advocated direction is the one we have been following for quite some time. I would like to think that there is a change on the horizon that I could believe in.
I'm a forward-looking guy. I'm not particularly exercised over whether al-Awlaki deserved to die or whether the U.S. government acted legally in killing him. What I care about is what the U.S. government will do in the future.
So I eagerly read through the first three sections, which were brilliantly argued, to reach the core of the essay: Toward Limiting Principles in the War on al Qaeda. But upon arrival, I felt as if I had been robbed of the punch-line to a long joke.
After setting us up for an exciting new principle of military engagement, you offer only, "I think only President Obama is in a position to lead us to the next place."
First off, just because Obama has the authority and obligation to define the new doctrine doesn't mean that everyone else should sit quietly and wait for vision to emanate from the White House on a golden platter. The neo-cons invented with the "Bush doctrine" long before Bush latched onto it. I was hoping and expecting that you propose a doctrine that Obama or some future president should follow.
Second, Obama either doesn't know where he's leading us, or he hasn't told us. At least Bush offered us a clear vision of what the U.S.'s military role should be--unlimited executive authority to preemptively strike against perceived threats. Obama seems to believe in a narrower authority, but what are the constraints? Why Libya and not Syria? Why al-Awlaki and not Khameini?
And there's the rub. We once had neatly defined categories of military and criminal justice. The assassination of al-Awlaki has taken us into new territory. You are quite right that the al-Awlaki case does not fit traditional notions of criminal justice, but it doesn't fit traditional notions of military justice either. We've never had a permanent war before, and terrorists have never before been able to do such damage. The novelty of the case has created a sort of Rorschach test, where some see al-Awlaki as a criminal, and some see him as an enemy combatant.
There is a great risk in subsuming al-Awlaki under military justice. If we don't draw precise lines to address this new breed of criminal/combatant, future presidents and military leaders may abuse the laxer constraints of military justice--as Obama and, especially, Bush have already done.
So what are the constraints? Why al-Awlaki and not Khameini? Does the suspect have to have committed a crime or is planning the crime sufficient? What about threats? What if a domestic terrorist were hiding out in the Rocky Mountains? Could we hit him with a drone? What if the criminal is a killer but lacks a political agenda?
These are difficult questions that get to the core of the issue. I haven't seen anyone propose a doctrine that addresses them. I was hoping that you would in this post--I and hope that you still will a subsequent post.
I think it's worse than that.
We've long had pseudo-engagements with paramilitaries and cartels and such - ETA, IRA, Al Capone's mob, the Medellin Cartel, guerrillas from Shining Path to East Timor, Qaddafi's terrorism, plus various Cold War actors.
While some of these engagements had atrocious precedent, we seem to be stuck in the fiction that all changed 9/11, that Al Qaeda is neither fish nor fowl, that we're just not equipped to define these things institutionally.
But of course we are.
We can have split levels of military & civilian justice, armed conflict, etc. We've had these all the time, and it hasn't been that hard.
We just need to commit to being relatively consistent, and that's something neither this nor last administration wanted - any commitment at all.
it is interesting that you claim we need to be "relatively consistent" rather than just "consistent." Relative to what? And while drones are new, I am pretty sure that in the long history of our clashes with paramilitaries and cartels and such, that there have been many actions which none of us know about, but which would bring up many similar if not identical questions that the killing of al-Awlaki has generated. In other words, the use of drone killings isn't so much a change in the business being done as much as it has made a change in the way it is being done so that it is more visible to the outsiders.
I say relatively consistent because it's a system of people, and new situations that may not be completely clear. Some attempt at consistency is appreciated. Arbitrary justice sucks.
It might be that we've been illegal for a long time, just didn't know it, but then it's time to have that debate.
There have always been ambiguous cases that we've pushed to one side or another: gangsters, drug dealers, and domestic terrorists to civil justice; spies and foreign dictators to military justice. The route we have chosen in each case has almost always provoked widespread debate.
Al Qaeda is a little different from the past examples, so of course there is a new debate--as there should be. I don't think that anyone disagrees that we need consistency, but to many of us, it's not obvious which way we should go with Al Qaeda.
It's just as complicated for those who would treat al-Awlaki as a civilian. What if we had evidence that he personally killed Americans? Does that make him a military target? What if he controlled a small fief in Afghanistan and declared it autonomous? What if he formally declared war on the U.S.? Where's the line, and why should we draw it on one side rather than on the other?
But I'm not even debating that - if he slides in on one side of the law or other, I don't care - just follow the rules on either side.
Possibly the desire to have a doctrine in which to capture the general approach to GWOT is something one needs to put aside. The endless potential scenarios make it almost possible to outline an approach that would allow one to deal with the multitudes of grey area encountered over time. No administration which is serious about dealing with the actual threats would want to tie their hands when confronting future cases. Nor would any administration come out and say - because of the domestic political fallout - they hold the right to send a drone into the Rocky Mountains. Along the same lines, there are international political concerns that would keep an administration from placing the whole of the approach for everyone to see - such as disregarding the sovereignty of a state that seen when Osama was taken out.
Why Libya and not Syria? Why al-Awlaki and not Khameini?
Is necessary for the citizens to know all of the details of the decision-making tree, all of the intel that was used to derive the conclusions for action or inaction? If one accepts that the government does need to do things such as black ops, maybe the question is 'what is the extent of trust is necessary from the citizens toward their government in order for the government to effectively function in those efforts in the GWOT and geo-political arena?'
American history provides ample reason to treat black ops with mistrust and to demand clear guidelines, oversight, and legal limits.
Agreed. But how much of that oversight and guidelines are directly communicate to the people and other countries is another matter. Is it enough that some select group of elected representatives are kept in the loop?
And to what extent do the guidelines have to be before we can say that they are clear? Who sets the legal limits, and if those limits are changed a week later can those who crossed the line be punished? Should the drone operator be charged with murder, with his or her only defense being "I was just following orders?"
In the end, the question really is whether one believes that there are "black op" operations that are valid - even the one that might not be considered "legal" - because of the overall benefit to the common good. That sometimes the ends justify the means, and the debate is when this is and isn't a case of means being justified by the ends.
But that mindset is just to concede arbitrariness. The whole project of international law in developing norms pertaining to the use of deadly force is to try to reduce that. Otherwise there is very little accountability for whatever governments decide to do. We have some relatively recent institutions such as the International Criminal Court, examples such as the Nuremburg trials, and moral/reputational accountability in the form of nations that do things widely considered unacceptable, no matter how powerful, eliciting condemnation and/or blowback that can include being targeted by terrorists.
No law or set of laws will, or can, ever unambiguously resolve all cases. There are always going to be disagreements over interpretation, does act A fall into box X or Y or Z, etc? The point is to at least limit that by stating clearly some things that are going to be considered ok, and some things that aren't.
Governments are always going to do what they believe they need to do to ensure their political and physical survival. They'll take their chances if they have to. And, really, in the longstanding tension between those trying to reign in governmental arbitrariness in uses of violence versus governments doing what they do, can there be any doubt which side has completely trounced the other so far? Bringing in some greater degree of legal and not just political constraints is an effort to try to reign that in.
That is an argument for the merit of trying to reach internationally agreed-upon rules on these matters. Whether the US public believes it wise or necessary to press for its own government to adopt transparent US policies and rules openly addressing some of the critical issues not now addressed is a separate question. My answer on that would be yes, we can and must do better. To do that we must as a society square up to at least those issues posed by armed conflict in our day that we know about at this point.
I'm not worried about whether a sitting US President will ever refrain from taking such actions as s/he thinks necessary to protect our citizens and our country. Frankly I doubt anyone could get elected US President who would not act in ways they thought necessary. I am troubled by many actions that have been taken using that rationale, however.
I certainly understand why particular governments don't want to legally constrain themselves. Less understandable perhaps is why the publics that will bear consequences of blowback long after that particular government is out of power should feel entirely comfortable with that.
The piece points out that the war has no limiting principle. That is the problem: that it has no time to end, and no identified metric by which we know it will end. The piece doesn't solve that, of course. It suggests that we need to curb drone attacks greatly or entirely, and is of a piece with my periodically stated view that we should be out of Afghanistan, which I reiterated above, and reiterated in my piece up right when OBL was killed.
There is no war with Iran that is analogous to the AUMF against al Qaeda, so I don't really understand why that's a question for you, or one you expect the piece to discuss. Your question about merely planning a crime? Sending your student the underpants bomber with explosives is a completed act; the conspiracy in the UK was not; Ft. Hood, killings "blessed" by AAA, was also completed. But the AUMF authorizes hitting al Qaeda to preempt future attacks, if you read it. It is AQ status that authorizes attacks. We don't criminalize status, but we do wage war by status, an important distinction here. We also only wage war abroad. Doing the above in the continental U.S. brings law enforcement and FBI into it. Being a fugitive in Yemen who is a leader of AQAP and under its leader's protection when there's an AUMF against al Qaeda and when you've completed acts of terrorism answers all these questions you pose.
In one of its moments, your comment kind of smushes together the world of criminal justice and the world of war. I don't agree with your formulation that AAA is a "new breed" of "criminal/combatant." That's just a way of not taking a side in a dispute where you have a criminal paradigm and a war paradigm. That comment is further away from making a rule that governs situations like AAA's or OBL's than either Bush or Greenwald or my piece are.
Put more succinctly, my piece pulls the criminal and military options apart and says that killing AAA is part of a war, but one we ought to end or greatly circumscribe, and the piece says that consistent with his critics' view, Obama is in a position to lead us there, and concludes by saying that activists need to prioritize this.
The American people accept the war paradigm. AAA is an awkward case to pick the fight over from the left; while a citizen, he was also more demonstrably a leader of terrorism than almost anyone we know of killed by a drone. The conversation needs to include how to create limits, and it is an intrisically political discussion, not as much a legal discussion. As I say in the piece and comments, there is a disjunction between what is legal and what is advisable. Politics is where we sort out the advisable.
AAA is certainly a new breed of warrior (or criminal), just as international terrorism is a new breed of warfare (or crime). That's why people are embroiled in an argument over how to handle AAA rather than automatically treating him as an enemy combatant.
Frankly, I agree with you that the war paradigm is applicable, but I do not take it to be an obvious conclusion. No do you, I assume, which is why you've take the time to cogently argue the point.
If we apply the war paradigm to a new kind of scenario, the paradigm itself does not survive unscathed. What we used to apply routinely to German soldiers, say, we are now applying to a very different type of person under very different circumstances. Our conception of war and warriors is changing.
The question is, if we adapt our war paradigm to include international terrorism, what do we let in in the bargain? Military action does not require a crime to be committed or even a conspiracy to be documented in order to authorize action. The military may kill any enemy combatant who is deemed a potential threat.
Given such limited constraints, it is extremely important to carefully define what makes someone an enemy combatant. Does declaring an oath to al Qaeda make you an enemy combatant? Vowing to destroy the Great Satan? Training in a terrorist camp?
One thing that makes people nervous about AAA is that the killing of an American citizen implies that other American citizens can be similarly targeted, due process be damned. If AAA had entered the U.S. and hid out in the Rockies, he'd still be an enemy combatant, no? Does that mean that the military could be authorized to send drones into Colorado? What about a killer who trained in a domestic terrorist camp aligned with al Qaeda? Would he be an enemy combatant too? What if the camp is affiliated with some other terrorist organization that Congress has not authorized military action against?
I'm not making a slippery slope are argument. I'm just saying that we need some lines drawn here, lines that makes sense and give the military sufficient latitude without violating due process. Applying the war paradigm to AAA has consequences for the future of American military action.
Thank you, A-man, for this excellent piece and for answering the questions and criticisms raised in the thread. I have a couple of observations/questions:.
I am wondering if you or others are aware of any discussions among legal experts in international fora about whether there should--and feasibly and practically could--be a new international legal concept adopted [by whom? only states?] whereby organizations that are not states can declare war, or are considered to have declared war, on a state? And vice versa?
The AUMF would otherwise seem to amount to me to a declared war---IF war could be declared on organizations other than states [organizations explicitly committed to acts of terrorism?].
In state vs. state wars there are worked-out legal concepts of surrender, conditional and unconditional. Basically one side has to say enough and that is it and they negotiate terms. With asymmetric state vs. terrorist organizaton conflicts, obviously that doesn't work. Such organizations can't necessarily meaningfully "surrender"--there's no way to really verify that all members of the group have done so and even if there were the group can always reconstitute or add new members. And what could it mean for a nation-state to "surrender" to a terrorist organization?
Could there be established by Congress a time limit on an AUMF that sanctions attacks on terrorist organizations that have attacked the US or its citizens--say, five years following the last such attack the AUMF expires and a new one would have to be passed if the group resumed attacks and Congress wanted to authorize retaliatory force under military rules? The question I would have for those opposing use of specified end dates for such an AUMF would be what specific actions do they believe might be necessary to thwart a planned terrorist act that would be barred by no operative AUMF in effect against the organization preparing the attack?
There must be a substantial body of literature exploring these issues going back to the immediate aftermath of 9/11. If others have dug into these matters already and have a few links or information to share summarizing where these discussions and debates are at this time I would be interested in reading about that. Apologies in advance if others have written on some of these questions here and I've just missed these pieces.
Some questions that seem pretty clearly be relevant to the formation of a military doctrine or policy that could provide good guidance would be:
*how close would the linkage have to be between individuals linked to bombings and attacks planned for the U.S. for them to be properly susceptible to drone attacks?
*what intel quality standards would be considered adequate to justify such attacks?
*under what, if any, conditions, would attacks targeting culpable individuals be undertaken where others not considered culpable are also present and susceptible to death or serious injury from an attack?
Does anyone know offhand if there is currently government policy that puts some limits or at least provides guidance on circumstances in which drone attacks will be considered and not considered? And, if there is, is that public information? It wouldn't be hard to imagine why the answer to the latter might be "no" even if the answer to the first is "yes". If that is the case--classified rules on when drone attacks will and will not be used--I'm not sure what the concept of appropriate accountability/checks on abuse is in such cases.
Hi AD. My initial reactions are:
1. While I've not read the literature, I think you and moat are onto something with the notion of applying the concept of war to non-states. It would make the Geneva Conventions and other international norms of war apply. It would also more clearly bring uses of force within the Constitutional and statutory frameworks that apply to war, so that the executive and legislative branches could joust about them knowing the same structural principles apply to that debate. In other words, the executive couldn't act like it was a war for public support, and then avoid the Constitutional and statutory accountabilities for waging war. This all seems good to me.
2. Congress clearly has the authority to do a time-limited AUMF. It also has the authority to make the President report to it, or seek reauthorization based on specifics.
3. The last part asks questions so numerous, though relevant and interesting, that I can't for reasons of time offer any thoughts right now. My piece meant to suggest a politically negotiated or understood norm about the use of force, as opposed to particular military guidelines. It would be good to have an Oval Office speech enunciating a doctrine that accomplished some of these good purposes.
We can do an AUMF against Al Capone, against the Black Panthers, against the Medellin Cartel, against crack gangs, against survivalists, against the IRA & ETA, against the Shining Path.
Those all have armed components. But once we do an AUMF, we can extend the enemy to anyone who shows comfort. Since nothing we do is ever justified to respond militarily to, all we need to do is commit a few overbearing acts or atrocities under our AUMF, and then people will come out of the woodwork to condemn us, or they can just be friends and family or friendly neighbors or non-antagonistic government. And will then become targetable enemy too.
It's pretty obvious we can extend this equation to a permanent war on anyone anywhere. And as long as we're willing to subjugate our Constitution to the whims of war-time powers, there's no help for us - our constitutional system is screwed.
Except of course there was once a time where war-time powers weren't such a whim, so it was easy to get back to rational Constitutional behavior.
Now we just go venue-shopping to find a system that can execute our target faster, or at least incarcerate forever.
All this time, I haven't been arguing about the actual facts of the case - I've asked about what process is followed, how we've set precedent, what deterministic principles we know from last time.
AFAIK, OBL had committed military strikes against the US multiple times, so targeting him as a military target was no problem, whether under Clinton, Bush or Obama.
AFAIK, OBL as a captive would be protected from extra-judicial execution under any of these presidents, though if there were serious danger of escape, I could even accept extreme measures.
AFAIK, Al-Awlaki has not been *FORMALLY* accused of an operational terrorist role in either military or civilian court or other authorized military decision body.
AFAIK, no one has identified a repeatable principle that says which of Al-Awlaki's behavior as either an American or foreigner will bring an extrajudicial sentence of death or lead to being apprehended.
Nor which responsible body has gone through a formal procedure to take responsibility for that judgment.
In any of these cases I can accept there might be extenuating circumstances that affect outcomes, should they be known and understood.
Is publicly advocating people kill Americans or Palestinians or Chinese or Russians or native americans or homosexuals or liberals or Catholics or Southerners or abortion doctors or members of a rival gang 1) a criminal offense, and if so, 2) a capital offense?
What measures can be taken without a formal charge - indictment, military charge or military assessment of target under war?
Is there any difference between a US citizen or a foreigner under this equation? Is there any difference between US soil and foreign soil for this equation?
Is there any reason I can't rationally ask my government for serious rather than flippant justification for these actions?
Yes, I understand that you have chosen to comment without reading the facts of the actual case I spent some hours researching and assembling for the reader. You did at first state a few wrong AAA facts at the top of the thread, and you did want to debate the OBL facts, so you didn't start off abstaining from discussing facts for some principled end. The facts do matter when you talk about someone's life. After the fact aspect of the argument went badly, you did hunker down to ignore those facts.
Your comment as to AAA is recapitulating arguments I already answered above repeatedly, so I won't answer those again.
But there was another fact today, a second person guilty of conspiring with al-Awlaki. The underpants bomber pleaded guilty to an indictment charging him with conspiring to blow up a plane at AAA's direction, as he told questioners. Two convictions of conspirators with AAA to commit terroristic acts. Til we meet again...