Michael Wolraich's picture

    Democrats, Don't Run Away

    By Michael Wolraich on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 5:54pm | Politics

    Democratic state legislators have begun fleeing their respective capitals as if the plague has broken out. Perhaps they see it that way. Republicanism has gone viral, and it seems that no state is safe, no matter how unionized.

    But this plague is called democracy, and the cure is worse than the disease.

    Read the full article at CNN.com

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    Politics

    Comments

    It may not change the pending legislation, but it sure will raise awareness of what the Republicans are all about. I doubt the protest would have the vigor it does if the votes had already been taken. And once taken, the vote will be subject to greater scrutiny. No one in Wisconsin will forget who voted Yea and Nay.


    by Donal on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 6:19pm

    I think that the attention is a good thing, but this game is not won or lost in a matter of weeks, nor by a single vote. If the Republicans proceed with their plans to hamstring the unions, their votes will be on record, and they will be judged on that by the voters. Democrats and unions will have to keep the issue alive through the next election and beyond. That's the only way to turn this tide.


    by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 6:34pm

    C'mon G, there are many ways to turn this tide.  Things are happening fast on the ground.  I'll be at the Washington State Capitol on Saturday at noon.  I'll be imagining that you had a great experience at City Hall Park beginning at 11 am.  Send us a pic.


    by kyle flynn on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 6:45pm

    Agree, in the US we are dealing with a low information voter, without the walk-out and protests the Bill would have passed and not even made the front page. Now, a lot of union workers, not only in Wisconsin, but all over the country, may become aware that the GOP is in goose step with the likes of Koch in turning unions into the equivalent of the cookie baking Fresno Peace group that was under surveillance by law enforcement as shown in M. Moore's Fahrenheit 911.

    Lectures to Democrats about 'how democracy works' ring somewhat hollow in a country where GOP operatives have been convicted in operations to prevent voters from voting, and where purging of voter rolls has occurred in states, where the Supreme Court stopped vote counting on a 5-4 split vote in a transparent partisan decision to make their guy President.

    Low information: a Kaiser poll shows only about half of Americans know the Obama health care law is still in effect. The unfortunate fact is to break through the infotainment and partisan claptrap on TeeVee 'news' something like the Wisconsin protests is necessary.


    by NCD on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 6:55pm

    Yes, how about a deal:  Democrats will show up to do their job in the democratic process when the Governor of Wisconsin stops taking money and paychecks from the Koch brothers.


    by Dan Kervick on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 6:56pm

    Yeah, and money is speech, so Koch kinda drowns out a lot of other little guys not making 'real money' like him, that is true democracy.   And remember, its only democracy when Democrats can't vote, or get their votes counted.

    Along the lines of my comment above on 'breaking through TeeVee News', ThinkProgress notes that the Wisconsin imbroglio has caused the corporate media to finally put ONE lonely labor leader on a Sunday News show, Meet the Corporate Press will have AFL-CIO leader Trumka. Maybe I'll turn on the TV to hear it.


    by NCD on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 7:40pm

    Great article Genghis, I agree with you 100%, these are the consequences of elections, the consequences of not voting. I truly wish these elections turned out differently but they did not, and now the citizens of Wisconsin are going to have to live with what has happened. Legislators are not supposed to run away from their jobs, in the long run, they cannot stay away forever. Therefore, they are merely delaying the inevitable, they will vote no, the measure will pass, and some folks are going to suffer for those actions. Yes, if Democrats want to defeat these measures they need to win elections. Seems so easy, yet has proven to be so very difficult.


    by tmccarthy0 on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 6:23pm

     merely delaying the inevitable

     

    Apparantly not in every case.  In Indiana the flight from a quorum call has already produced positive results:

    On Tuesday night, 23 bills died – including the controversial right-to-work legislation that started the fracas on Monday. It would prohibit employees from being required to pay union dues or fees as a condition of employment.

    I cannot resist this formula: "Let us stand with Democrats who run"


    by jollyroger on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 6:33pm

    Jesus.  And according to you, you're the greatest fucking Democrat ever,of all time.  Look, they are absolutely doing their jobs, using all the tools at their disposal, including parliamentary procedure, to achieve the best outcome for the folks they serve.  What, the whole of their jobs is to sit in a chamber and say yes or no every once in a while?  Whatever.  See ya Saturday. 


    by kyle flynn on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 7:14pm

    You such a tough guy aren't you, but you have a reading comprehension problem and a problem with a woman who expresses an opinion you happen to disagree with, my god when do you step off your high horse?

    You know what you don't have to like what I wrote, you don't have to agree with it, but to stalk me to other threads to make sure I know you disapprove of my work makes you a bully, with literally nothing to say. Yes you should keep up the attacks, as it is a clear reflection of your character or lack there-of. Disagreement is one thing, being an asshole another thing entirely. Ohh Kyle Flynn disapproves of me, he hates my comments, he hates my blogs and he carries it to the blogs of others so he can continue to fight. Whatever, get back to me when you do something other than bitch on a blog.

    Yes I am the greatest Democrat ever,that is me, Greatest Democrat  ever, but at least I am not a bully clown who denigreates the work of others.


    by tmccarthy0 on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 8:08pm

    We disagree about my reading comprehension skills.  And I don't follow your accusation that I have a problem with a woman who expresses her opinion.  It's not true.  Hard to prove either way with so little evidence.  You'll just have to take my word for it, although I imagine you won't.  I estimate I step off my high horse about 50% of the time around here.

    You're absolutely right.  I don't have to like what you wrote and I don't have to agree with it.  And we agree that stalking ain't cool, nor is bullying.  But you're wrong to falsely accuse me of those offences.  I snarked a couple of times at the beginning of your essay and then left it alone.  I said why.  I expressed a criticism to Genghis on this thread and then read your comment and noticed, IMO, a striking irony and had a desire to defend the efforts of the Democratic Senators of Wisconsin.  So figuratively, IYO, I had nothing to say.  Fair enough, free country and all.  But literally?  Nah.  I said something.  Otherwise it couldn't have been an attack.  (although I think attack is a pretty strong word for my comment -- more disagreement)

    For the record, I don't disapprove of you.  I don't know you.  And I don't hate your comments and blogs.  I can't even think of anything else you've ever posted.  I just thought your last blog was weak and this particular comment needed some strong push back.  Free country, etc.

    Finally.  It's true, I can be a world class asshole (if I do say so myself).  And just ask Brew and Quinn, my character flaws are many and severe.  But ask my mom and she might tell you I can sometimes be charming.


    by kyle flynn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 12:00am

    And now, back to those character flaws. I would say these require enumeration and fulsome expandification. ;-)

    Or we can talk about runaway legislators.


    by quinn esq on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 9:24am

    So that we might move swiftly past this, let me agree in advance to any indictment against my character anyone offers for any reason.  Now...

    This is a fine opportunity to restate in no uncertain terms that it is totally awesome that the Senate Democrats in Wisconsin have exploited parliamentary rules to delay and potentially prevent some truly horrible legislation. Include these events among Sleepin' Jesus's observations of what democracy looks like.  Elections have many consequences.  This particular event in Wisconsin is one of them.  The notion being floated that these legislators are not doing their jobs is horseshit and a Republican talking point.  I say they're doing their jobs well.  And the suggestion that there is anything inevitable about these events is more shit.  Great things are happening.  To hear self identified Democrats belittle, scold and otherwise disparage Democratic legislators actually doing something to slow the attack on the Working Class is sickening.


    by kyle flynn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:15am

    In my new found-magnanimity and suddenly-realized maturity, can I just say I heartily endorse every word of this comment?


    by brewmn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 2:24pm

    Hell yeah you can say that.  (but we might want to keep it under wraps for a while for fear of disturbing The Force)


    by kyle flynn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 3:50pm

    Yup.

    And if that fails, I'd lookg at solutions like setting up a Sanctuary church, where they're under 24 hour guard by (unionized) nuns.

    Seriously. The Dems need to lock themselves INSIDE the people who've been fighting.


    by quinn esq on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 2:34pm

    Quite right Kyle!

    It's astounding to see people doing anything other than praising Democrats for fighting back.  Some people, obviously, having apparently never seen or heard of a Democrat fighting back think that's just wrong or not allowed.  Pretty sad.


    by oleeb on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:51pm

    One more thing, your coming to comicon, great, I'll be there and my boys wil be with me and they don't take so kindly to your bully tactics, we will be there all three days, so I definitely would love to meet you, definitely, you know what I look like, excellent. See you there tough guy.


    by tmccarthy0 on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 9:13pm

    No, I have zero plans to ever attend comicon.  Not even sure what that is.  This Saturday I will wander over to the Capitol around noon with my son to throw my support behind the idea that the Working Class in this country deserve better than we're getting.  I just assumed you'd be there too.  And no, I haven't the foggiest fucking idea what you look like.  How could I?  Sure, I looked up "Democrat" in the dictionary, but despite your imaginings, your picture wasn't there.


    by kyle flynn on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 11:14pm

    Pretty moderate response to her ramping up some imaginary threat from you, kyle.  Looks like a lot of time passed with no one calling her on it. 

    Thanks for going to the Capitol for those of us can't, kyle.  Solidarity!


    by Anonymous stardust (not verified) on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 12:05am

    I'm really looking forward to it.  I expect a decent turnout, too. (just a gut feeling)  And the legislators in both houses will be working, which will mean more action in general.  Maybe I'll even make a sign.


    by kyle flynn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 12:15am

    Calling her on it?  Some stranger says "See ya Saturday" and she's not to feel nervous?


    by LisB on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 12:19am

    I hadn't looked at it in those terms.  It's a valid point of view.  But there is also a context here.  Shortly before posting my reply to tmccarthy0 I told Genghis exactly where I'd be on Saturday.  It was a short thread at the time, and I don't think it was crazy for me to assume tmccarthy0 may have read that comment.  Both of us living in Washington and all, I thought for sure she'd understand what I was talking about.  Maybe a bit careless on my part.  Plus, for god's sake, we're talking about a couple of minor criticisms on a blog -- one of which icluded snark about a "sparkle pony." (still not sure what that is)


    by kyle flynn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 1:20am

    Minor criticisms....lol.  Well, yeah, I don't know what a sparkle pony is either, but please understand that some of us don't read every single comment here either.


    by LisB on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 1:20am

    "Pretty moderate response to her ramping up some imaginary threat from you, kyle."

    Yeah, kyle.  Are you going to stand for that?


    by brewmn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 9:12am

    Stifle.


    by quinn esq on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 9:27am

    I agree with much of what you said, Genghis, but I also think this is a case of finding out that elected officials had a dishonest deal that was struck. What is the remedy for that? Waiting one year for a recall? Four years for a new election? It seems to me that this situation is one we have not previously addressed -- getting elected to fulfill the wishes of a particular high-paying sponsor (thank you, Supreme Court). It seems to me that the motivations here are impeachable, but I don't see that happening.

    Yes, Genghis, these guys were elected, but it seems under false pretenses SHOCKING!!!! I agree that the Dems should come back, but there should be some way to make these poseurs lose their standing. (and as to the idea of giving republicans an excuse for misbehavior --- well, I just have to laugh!


    by CVille Dem on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 8:53pm

    The Governor gets his year to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt he is not worthy to lead the State of Wisconsin, but there are GOP Reps and Senators that have been in office more then a year who can be recalled.  Chip away, Wisonsin, chip away.  They can only pass the legislation they propose with a majority.  A majority present behavior may prove to be undeserved.  There is good cause for the people on the Right to reject their behavior.  Especially now that they have shown themselves to be so callously indifferent to the plight of the people in the state.  When all is said and done, cutting the state employees makes services even more difficult to obtain for both the Left and the Right.  When the people on the Right go to get their plates renewed and they can't get to the window for several hours they may realize they've cut off their own noses.


    by Gregor Zap on Sun, 02/27/2011 - 2:56am

    Strikes me that you're venturing somewhat into Joe Klein territory. Wisely, though, you left out the "civil servants are different" stuff, which seemded to so enrage a lot of commenters there that they left his main point ignored. Wink


    by artappraiser on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 9:06pm

    My initial reaction was skeptical-to-somewhat disapproving, for reasons similar to yours.

    But I changed my mind.  I think there is more than one way for an elected legislator to do her job and it's condescending of Walker to lecture them on doing their jobs.  They're doing their jobs, all right.  They have an unconventional take on what that means at the moment, one which Governor Walker may not have any frame of reference for really understanding.  These 14 are scrappers, they're fighters.  I'd like to see more of that in the Democratic party. 

    What they did has brought about an enormous amount of additional publicity on this issue.  Labor hasn't been able to get much attention from the public for a long, long time now using the usual conventional means.  Sometimes it takes some off the beaten path thinking to break through. I interpret democracy to mean not only the "normal" or "typical" processes but as a concept capable of including unorthodox procedures as well.  What these 14 have done will in the end do a great deal to further the public's understanding of this issue and has stimulated far more extensive discussion about it than ever would have happened otherwise.  I think that means that in the end the final vote will be more "democratic" in nature than it would have been had they held the vote already. 

    As to how long is an acceptable time during which to hold out, I don't have any set answer for that. 

    I don't worry at all about the accountability question.  If the voters are so upset with the 14 for what they've done they can vote them out on that basis. 


    by AmericanDreamer on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 9:07pm

    In no way is this a novel interpretation of how democracy works. Illinois state legislator Abraham Lincoln jumped out a second-story window to deny the majority Democrats a quorum back in 1840.

    This is just long-overdue payback.


    by acanuck on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 11:59pm

    But Abe Lincoln was a Republican.  That's different!  Laughing


    by Gregor Zap on Sun, 02/27/2011 - 2:59am

    There may be a deadline devil in some details,other machinations going on, artificial though they may be in certain cases.


    by artappraiser on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 2:02am

    Not to elide entirely the layoff issue, why, oh why, must we endure the nomenclature budet repair bill?


    by jollyroger on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 3:26am

    I think you're spot on about both the ethics and the politics of this.  The use of arcane parliamentary rules to stall legislation basically ticks people off.  A lot of Obama's independent support came from people ticked off by this kind of thing, which is why the post partisan fantasy persists.

    I'd also add, from a purely aesthetic perspective -- that being a member of the party that flees its opponents is hardly inspiring.


    by Michael Maiello on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 8:41am

    I don't know about that, destor.  The Walkout in Wisconsin seems to have done more to inspire Democrats than anything since Obama's election.


    by brewmn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 8:58am

    Good point.  Maybe I'm being too school marmish.


    by Michael Maiello on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 10:13am

    Interesting.

    First, I don't see a problem with Democrats fleeing a state so long as it's making a political point. When faced with a tyranny from the majority, the minority has very few avenues to pursue. Granted, the GOPer's control the agenda and they're going to get their way regardless. However, the minority has a responsibility to inform the public there's some serious issues that are being discussed under the cover of darkness and when the public finds out, it'll be too late...it'll be law. Two years to the next election cycle is two years of more changes the public might not appreciate either. So fleeing the capital only serves the purpose of a political flanking maneuver to draw the public's attention the majority has plans the public is not aware of and most probably would not approve of.

    And for winner take all being the right of the majority, one should think. One party creates legislation when they're in power while the other tears it down when they return to power and erect their own. We've been hearing that from GOPer's in Congress attempting to completely eradicating all of Obama accomplishments by 2012 and now we're seeing the same childish tirade being played out a the state level by GOPer controlled legislators and governors. For some reason, that doesn't fit my understanding of a democracy or a republic...it reminds me more of anarchy.

    What no one is saying is the political hostility in the US is reaching it's zenith...the government, both federal and state, will be controlled by the Party...either all Democrats or all GOPers - no more power sharing. So far it looks as if the GOPers are making an end-run to the goal hoping to score and settle the issue once and for all before the Democrats can get off the bench and mount a defense.

    One last point. Why is a quorum necessary to conduct legislative business? I suspect the quorum rule is the means by which a minority can exert their influence over the majority. Otherwise why would it be necessary?


    by Beetlejuice on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 9:34am

    I don't think it is great for the future of the country to have one of the two major parties lie back and surrender every time they have an electoral setback.

    If you have one party which uses the full breadth of legislative rules available to them, and the other - out of a (misguided, imo) sense of civility - bending over backwards in respect of the other's fictitious 'electoral mandate', the country is doomed.

    Genghis, what you are suggesting is tantamount to unilateral disarmament, which strikes me as rather naive. Sure, suggest that the rules need to be changed to limit the possibility of minority obstruction. But nothing good comes from 'being oh-so-civil' in the current climate.


    by Obey on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:17am

    The strategy you recommend goes by the scientific name of tit-for-tat, with which you're probably familiar. It can be highly effective in competition.

    But when both sides employ a tat that is greater than the tit, you sometimes get a "death spiral" of escalation. That is what has happened with the filibuster in the Senate.

    The Republicans have not been employing the quorum busting tactic (at least not since the days of Abe Lincoln--thanks for the reminder acanuck). Therefore, this tat is greater than the tit. It's not a refusal to unilaterally disarm. It's an escalation.

    So next time around, someone will write on a conservative blog, "I don't think it is great for the future of the country to have one of the two major parties lie back and surrender every time they have an electoral setback," and the Republicans will likely tat the Democrats right back.

    Is that a good outcome for the country?


    by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:41am

    A couple of simple questions:  is it ever okay to filibuster?  Is it the rule or the abuse of the rule that's being objected to? 


    by kyle flynn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:46am

    As between the two parties at the national levels, for a long time now the GOP has played much harder ball than the Democrats have.  Would you disagree with that assessment?  The dynamic I observe is primarily that of the bully and the bullied: unless and until the bullied stands up to the bully, the bully concludes he can continue doing much as he pleases. 

    Interesting, because in the context of nuclear deterrence during the Cold War, this was exactly the argument of some of the hardliners in both parties when it came to additions to their respective nuclear arsenals.  They'd say, at the time and in retrospect, that what some saw as a "tit for tat" response was necessary and contributed to a successful outcome in the end.

    Of course, there is the matter of the downsides--how many of the US Third World interventions during the Cold War wherein we propped up repressive dictators against people who were conveniently broadbrushed as communists might have been avoided?  Would the US have a more consistently favorable reputation for promoting human rights and freedom had we not felt the need to "match" perceived or actual Soviet intervention in so many "Third World" countries?  Did we do grievous harm to ourselves by employing the logic of tit-for-tat in Vietnam, notably, among other places?  If someone hadn't blinked during the Cuban missile crisis, would we even we having this discussion?


    by AmericanDreamer on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:52am

    this tat is greater than the tit. It's not a refusal to unilaterally disarm. It's an escalation.

    Okay, I'll concede that.

    I have to run, but here's a provisional response: there is a difference between actions that are very public and those that are largely hidden. The reason that the filibuster can be used with impunity even in support of unpopular causes is that the general population doesn't see it in use. They just hear that a vote on such-and-such legislation failed.

    The run-away-from-quorum-votes strategy strikes me as very different. This is, and will remain, a strategy that can only be used in extreme cases where the minority is fully confident of its position, has the courage of its convictions, and expects the resulting publicity to play in its favor. It is not a tactic that a party can use more often without a public backlash. So I don't see the danger of a slippery-slope/vicious spiral towards legislative sclerosis.


    by Obey on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 12:06pm

    This strategy is wholly different.  I'm pretty sure it's a one time hit.  Once they "report," or there is some sort of "role call" or... (someone help me here) once a quorum is otherwise established, that's it.  This particular quorum rule is put to bed until next year.  They can't just run for the state line everytime they think they'll lose a vote.  The fillibuster, not so much.


    by kyle flynn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 12:53pm

    Right, the three-fifths rule is only for budget bills; I believe there's a lower quorum for ordinary bills, but the Republicans can meet it. One irony is that if Walker hadn't tried to disguise his anti-labor measures as an austerity move, he might have pulled it off. First pass the budget with the cuts and givebacks, then introduce A Bill to Bust Public-Sector Unions. Except then, the governor's malicious intent would have been instantly obvious. As it is (thanks to those runaway Democrats), the public has indeed caught on to his maliciousness and deviousness.


    by acanuck on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 3:19pm

    The run-away-from-quorum-votes strategy strikes me as very different. This is, and will remain, a strategy that can only be used in extreme cases

    Me too. I thought it was a very smart and out-of-the-box move by the Wisconsin gang. The whole thing was being railroaded through and what they did not only gave them some breathing time to make it a national issue, in itself it caused immediate media attention. I even suspected they might have gotten national expert input about doing it.

    I thought before they did that that the mini wildcat by teachers had all the attention and I don't think that was necessarily a promising thing especially given that it was teachers and not janitors or firemen seen as leading the protests.  That at that point in time there was a danger of backlash. Anyone who thinks a majority of Americans think of teachers as working class saints at this point in time is just out-of-touch with what's going on in the education debate in this country. And in many parts of Wisconsin it has been a very hot button topic for decades (i.e,, vouchers, charter schools, public schools and the role the teachers unions have had in being resistant to change and alternatives.)

    But I didn't see Wisconsites in particular as thinking of the Senators ploy as the same thing as teachers calling in sick. I think they expect a different kind of "work" from politicians than from teachers and that the action would be considered doing their work. Politics in Wisconsin has always been open to "radical" tactics of all types, I can easily see a lot of politically active Wisconsites I know admiring some of the more radical GOP shenanigans in national Congress even if they don't agree with the goal.

    But the copycats in other states probably won't fare as well within their own states precisely because they will just be seen as copycats at a time when the goal of making it a national issue has already been accomplished. And it's no longer radical or surprising.


    by artappraiser on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 3:17pm

    In no way do I see this as a greater tat. The Republicans regularly, without a qualm, for 30+ years, have been using tactics which "civil" people abhor. Whether its funding or unilaterally removing peoples rights or media manipulation or manipulating Senate procedures.... whether its knowingly opposing science that they know is true or hacking the reputations of innocent individuals apart or running Willie Horton ads or screwing with voting procedures... the list is endless. 

    The argument that running away from a vote is an ESCALATION strikes me as showing a truly, deeply, madly, modern liberal Democratic mindset in action, G.

    Now, I can love me some libdems, but the GOP shit has to be fought. And the first thing it needs is a couple of smacks upside the head. An awareness that we're not going to take it anymore. 

    Shorter: Well whaddya know? We've come to get our country back too.


    by quinn esq on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 2:28pm

    Yes.  http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/02/25/shutting-it-down-assembly-bill-passage-paves-way-for-ejecting-protesters-from-capitol/


    by Anonymous stardust (not verified) on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 2:34pm

    Clever move by Walker. Passing the bill in the assembly gives him an excuse to clear the rotunda. Some protesters won't go quietly, preferring to go to jail. Let's see how many.


    by acanuck on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 3:30pm

    I wish it were a greater tat. I love great tats. Wait, what are we talking about again?


    by Verified Atheist on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 3:15pm

    Ask any Republican--not the nut jobs, any Republican--and they will tell you the opposite. They will accuse the Democrats of playing dirty politics.

    They're biased of course--but let's face it, so are we. It's a basic psychological condition that human beings minimize their own offense and maximize the other guy's. It's not stupidity; it's an unavoidable condition of the human mind.

    And that's what drives tit-for-tat death spirals. Each side believes that its own tactics are less extreme than its opponents. Think Hatfield-McCoy or Northern Ireland. That's what's happening here.

    Now I'm not advocating that Democrats curl up in a ball and take a beating, but at the very least, they can avoid opening up a new obstructionist tactic. Because whatever the Republicans have been doing, they have not been doing this. And if this works, you can bet your ass that Republicans will do it when the positions are reversed. Do you want a minority Republicans to be able to derail Democatic bills has happened in Congress? It's a recipe for the status quo. Do you like the status quo?


    by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 4:25pm

    You make a valid point, but the Texas Eleven did this same thing, and it doesn't seem to have started an avalanche of similar responses. If we go back just a little further in time, we'll see that in 1988, the Republicans were the ones skipping town, only this time at the national level. It's also instructive to note, that in 1988 the Democrats called for the arrest of those Republicans, so that's not a new move, either. (I still think calling for the arrest is ridiculous, however.)


    by Verified Atheist on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 4:36pm

    It seems we can ask any Republican and you to find out the Democrats are playing dirty politics.  Clearly you think this is an "obstructionist tactic."  I maintain this is governing.  We disagree.  And to answer your question, sure, I can handle Republicans in the minority doing this or something similar, just as I can handle the filibuster rule.  The abuse of either strategy sucks, of course, but that's by definition.  Consider answering this:  can you imagine any scenario where this strategy--a strategy of last resort, mind you--could receive your blessing?  Surely there's something.  I'll leave the hypothetical to your imagination.  If you answer "yes," then we're back to examining the policies at stake.  I suggest that people's support of this strategy is in direct proportion to their commitment to this cause.  I can understand a neutral party not digging that, but I'll say it again, time to pick a side.


    by kyle flynn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 6:19pm

    If you're really cool with Republicans doing the same thing, then you're logically consistent. Kudos to you.

    I'm not OK with the Republicans doing it under any circumstances, so I'm logically consistent too. Kudos to me.


    by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 7:39pm

    Fair enough, I suppose.  I'm especially interested in your response to the above "conclusion."  I think the analysis is solid.  He's absolutely right to point out the lack of any systematic element.  By definition the walkout isn't "obstructionism."   The move is a one-off.  It seems an important distinction, one that ought to cut through your objections, at least a bit. 


    by kyle flynn on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 9:46pm

    It is an important distinction, and I wouldn't feel strongly if I believed that it were a one-off. But if the tactic proves effective, I highly doubt that it will remain a one-off (or a three-off or however you want to count.).


    by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 9:50pm

    Well, look on the bright side.  If the tactic proves effective it'll be a great victory with endless potential for the working people of Wisconson and throughout the land.  Try not to be too disapointed if it works out that way.


    by kyle flynn on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 12:15am

    Genghis, you've just forced all of politics inside the grand frame of the tit-for-tat as a philosophical principle and psychological framework. As though that was somehow the grand-historical high-principled frame we should use to decide things.

    What of - just to take one other, competing, frame - creativity and political innovation? The Republicans will oppose ANY new move, and call it "dirty" politics, as long as it's new, because it's not part of some parliamentary or democratic or fair play or American or Christian tradition. So should we stop doing new stuff? How about if we find new ways to plug the streets, or overwhelm them online? Not fair? If your principle had been alive and well during the last election, it would have forbidden various of Obama's moves, such as his fundraising exploits, for being a tat too far. The result is that your position - though it sounds fabulously high-principled - hands the initiative, on pretty much anything, to the Republicans. So, for starters, tit-for-tat just ain't a big enough frame.

    Second, like I said, you've decided that this particular tat marks the line where we must reverse course. Even though the GOP are total law-breaking, lying, science-denying, pieces of shit at this stage - THIS is the tat too far. And don't give me some "human beings always think that about their enemies" nonsense, because: a) Sometimes we're right. Sometimes, I've felt political parties had reached a real stage of sickness, other times, not so much. IMHO, the GOP c. 2011 is off the cliff sick. 

    And third, I really think it needs to be pointed out that THIS... is working. And on the scale of evil, it's just not cooperating. Which we've seen a bit of, from the GOP. Whereas playing by the rules, which are bent as and when the GOP decides, equals great big failure. And yes, I know you think it's being principled and statesmanlike. I think it's a recipe for failure, and frankly, will never win against the way the GOP plays these days.

    As for the fact that the GOP will get hysterical - Big. Fucking. Whoop. They got hysterical about a black man being elected. Their views mean nothing to me. Not on the Earth's age, or evolution or climate change or the economy or God or parliamentary procedure. Because anyone left voting for the Republicans is mentally challenged. I'm dead serious. That is an incredibly fucked up party right now, and I really don't give a damn to discuss their "ideas," or even their thoughts on what's dirty or unfair. And before you go all bipartisan on me, nor do we need their votes. We win by mobilizing our people to turn out, or by pulling in independents or the disaffected or the young. 


    by quinn esq on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 5:41pm

    No Quinn, while you've been trying to broaden the topic to everything the Republicans have ever done wrong, I've been talking about obstructionism, and a particular obstructionist tactic at that. (1)

    I do not only drawn the line at this tactic. I wrote about this particular tactic because it's new (sort of), and it's happening right now. When Republicans obstruct, I'm happy to write about that too, and I have before. But if it's OK with you, I don't feel the need to write about Republicans every time I open my computer. (2)

    Meanwhile, you write about the Democratic legislators as if they were engaged in courageous acts of civil disobediance, breaking the rules no matter the risk to fight a corrupt regime. But contrary to what some around here seem to think, this is not Egypt. The Republicans did not win the elections in Wisconsin by fraud. They may be liars and hypocrites with corporate money spilling out of their pockets, but the people voted for them. So what you're advocating is not breaking rules; you're advocating subverting the will of the voters. (3)

    Do you really think that I'm unaware of GOP hysteria or that I give a shit? I don't care what they say. I care what they do. And when some GOP bastards break quorum in New York or some other state with a Democratic majority to block a law that the state desperately needs, I'm going to be angry as hell. Sometimes the Republicans escalate the obstructionism, and that sucks, but this time it's the Democrats that are doing it--with a gang of liberals cheering them on like they're saints marching in. (4)

    As for me, I'm tired of the excuses and rationalizations.


    by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 7:26pm

    The Republicans did not win the elections in Wisconsin by fraud

    I think you may be defining "fraud" a tad (we've had tit, and tats, why not a tad...) too narrowly.

    If by fraud you mean the snatching up of ballot filled boxes in the dead of night and their replacement with new ones stuffed with invented votes, well, sure.  No fraud here.

    But may we not also characterize as fraud the knowing assent to misinformation spread by 504s and 503ds, who coordinate their thinly veiled electioneering with a central committee the personnel of which know full well that the ads which flood the minds of the mindless are so misleading as to be laughably fraudulent?

    May we not call it fraud when Americans for Prosperity (gag me with a spoon...) buys astroturf and spreads it around like the manure it truly is, creating out of whole cloth the illusion of a grass roots tea party?

    If you answer "yes", prescribe some remedy that does not depend upon the old "sunshine is the best disinfectant" since there is a finite quantum of airtime available, and the forces of truth, justice, and the american way (that would be us, G.) are facing an avalanche of money along with the prospect of "earned" media (that would be free electioneering) donated by Murdoch and his running dogs (not you, Destor, the other ones.)

     


    by jollyroger on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 9:06pm

    Dear Genghis.

    1. Do try to stand your ground on this one. See, I wasn't the one expanding the discussion to everything the Republicans have ever done wrong. That would be you. You're the guy working an argument about the much wider world of "Democracy" and "Death spirals" and such, and moving well beyond a narrow parliamentary discussion of one particular tactic. You're the one saying Democrats shouldn't be doing "tat" against some Republican "tit," or we'll pitch into that horrific "death spiral." To repeat, it's your ARGUMENT that is about the dynamics of various tactics and maneuvers, why this one will lead to these wider consequences, and what this means for democracy. What has happened is that you don't like ME bringing Republican behaviour and its consequences back into what you want to keep as a narrowly-defined discussion of one tactic. 

    2. Again a nice try, claiming I'm saying the Republicans are all about "fraud" and a "corrupt regime." I find the way you're picking and choosing what is to count here quite confusing. On the side of the Democrats, you're clear on the negatives - they're anti-democratic, pitching us into a death spiral, and not engaged in acts of courageous civil disobedience. Whereas the only negative activities the Republicans could do that you would count in this case seems to be "fraud." Otherwise, lying, hypocrisy and hoovering up corporate money don't seem to count. Nor do the fact that the GOP can buy/sell and manipulate the media, buy and sell legislators and work for the purposes of super-powerful, deathless individuals we know as corporations. But just let someone run away from voting, and it's... Death Spiral 2012! Any sense at all of how much you're buying into a status quo that is now horrifically bent against change?

    3. Parliamentary history - no, political history - is chockful, from stem to stern, of maneuvers to bend and change the rules, to not run candidates and not show up for votes and shift dates and change quorums and stuff 101 feet into 13 shoes and curve boundaries and not do proper head counts and on and on. In this case, the Dems are trying a tactic out. And somehow IT becomes the cause of "Death Spiral," while the Republicans are the voice of the people and democracy and the Dems aren't courageous? Jesus, man, you and your gang need to ease up a notch. After all, what could be worse for the country than a gang of liberals cheering Democrats on. Darn them, those gangs of liberals, loose in the streets.

    Then again, you know what? Once the Wisconsin Republicans change the law and make strikes illegal, those darned liberals will probably just cheer on the illegal strikes that will follow. 

    Death Spiral - Closer than you think!


    by quinn esq on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 10:49pm

    It's good to see you haven't lost your head. Between Genghis's suicidal embrace of taking a knife to a gunfight ("but alas, at least we will die with honor"), M2o cheering on Arizonian Republicans, and Dan K's rambling cry for help I was begining to think you folks had all lost it.


    by Saladin on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:15pm

    All I know is people need to start throwing shoes. 

    After that, Nike being Nike, I'm sure they'll come out with a killer line of footwear, and the world will be well on its way to improvement. 

    Just Throw It.


    by quinn esq on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:28pm

    Damn right. 


    by Saladin on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:53pm

    Mass decompensating isn't that uncommon these days, Sal.  It's great to see you after such a long time.  An old Cafe friend got ahold of me tonight, sent some of his art and this tune.  Hope it speaks to you; it made me cry over the bits of me that still live in my timid youth, and sometimes present Mad World.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N3N1MlvVc4   Whirl on, brother.


    by Anonymous stardust (not verified) on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 12:02am

    That's a great video. Thanks for sharing.  


    by Saladin on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 5:07pm

    embrace of taking a knife to a gunfight

     

    Uhh, I don't see G. showing up for any fight--at least he hasn't engaged on any point that I've raised in the last few days...He's all over the board with his emotive pleas for middle road *color between the lines and lay down and die, but he ain't no fighter....how ya doin", Sal.  Hang around and pitch in.

     

     *Hint:when the rules of the game are stacked against you, don't play by the rules.  Use a collateral attack. (In this case, "collateral" is both a noun and an adjective...)


    by jollyroger on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 3:41am

    Brillant!  Good to see you're as sharp as ever. I suspect I will visit more often. I am curious, does the one-eyed queen ever drop by? 


    by Saladin on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 5:10pm

    So, Genghis, how democratic was the crap that went down in the Wisconsin assembly today? With at least 15 legislators still scheduled to speak, the house speaker called a snap vote on the bill, which opened and closed within seconds. In a clearly pre-orchestrated move, 51 of 53 Republicans got their votes in in time; barely one-third of the Democrats and independents did. A number of legislators report furiously pushing their buttons to no effect. The Republicans immediately headed for the exits -- not even a vote to adjourn.

    Thing is, they didn't even have to pull that stunt. They had the votes; the bill was going to pass within hours. But they couldn't resist delivering a big fuck-you to their opponents. Proper roll-call votes stay open till everyone who wants to vote has voted. I've seen it argued that what the Republicans pulled actually rendered the vote illegal; the Democrats are looking into whether to challenge it. Wouldn't it be poetic justice if Republican hubris (and disregard for parliamentary procedure) obliged them to start over from scratch?


    by acanuck on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 12:10am

    Here's a link:

    http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/assembly-vote-walker-republican


    by acanuck on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 12:10am

    So, Genghis, how democratic was the crap that went down in the Wisconsin assembly today

     

    Genghis doesn't like to answer forensic questions--he never knows where they might lead, and he might be, you know, trapped into admitting that he has a result-oriented approach to dialog;  He don't want no mind changing result.


    by jollyroger on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 3:44am

    So, Genghis, how democratic was the crap that went down in the Wisconsin assembly today?

    Not very


    by Michael Wolraich on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 10:57am

    C'mon man, be better specific!  Scale of 1-1,000,000?


    by kyle flynn on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 11:35am

    7.

    Oh wait. Which end is up?


    by quinn esq on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 4:17pm

    The Assembly Dems are indeed pursuing invalidating that vote. The Repubs just keep trotting out the same old bs about how they're only trying to save our state from fiscal ruin.


    by madisonwi (not verified) on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 7:59pm

    I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by "death spiral." It's mentioned in the tit-for-tat wiki page I linked to above. There's no end-of-the-world scenario here. It just means that if the Dem tactic were successful, Republicans would retaliate with their own quorum busting tactics. The use of the tactic would then grow as each side employed it against the other. See, that's all I'm talking about.

    And sure, there are all sorts of obstructionist parliamentary tactics out there that people have used throughout history, but they're mostly bad tactics--in the sense of bad for democracy. They subvert the will of the people and limit the possibility of change. And this quorum-busting tactic is bad for democracy too. It's bad when Dems do it, and it's bad if Republicans do it.


    by Michael Wolraich on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 10:54am

    I would argue that the founding fathers wanted us to be able to "subvert the will of the people", as they argued against the "tyranny of the majority". Some of the most important progressive advancements were made by subverting the will of the people.


    by Verified Atheist on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 11:10am

    Of course this brings up a slight problem.  If the will of the people is not always inherently correct, who decides when it is good thing and when it is a bad thing?  You? Me? Genghis? Glen Beck? The Illuminati?  In the end, once one decides that there is such a thing as tyranny of the majority, then one cannot fall back on such comments as "majority of people support the public option" in order to make one's case for the public option (not that I'm saying you've said such comments). 


    by Elusive Trope on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 11:26am

    If the will of the people is not always inherently correct, who decides when it is good thing and when it is a bad thing?

    It's absolutely a problem, but there's a simple answer: me. I decide when it's a good thing, and when it's a bad thing. In all seriousness, part of the beauty of these "tricks" that allow the minority (but usually a sizable minority) to circumvent the "will of the people" is that they require some inconvenience on the part of that minority. In short, the bigger that inconvenience, the more I support that "trick". Again, though, ultimately it just boils down to whether I think it's a good idea. :P


    by Verified Atheist on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 4:08pm

    Just wanted to say that you're awesome, quinn. I'm a member of the evil teachers' union in Madison. Things seem and feel just a tad different when life as you know it is kind of falling apart--not so easy to be quite so detached.


    by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:56pm

    Excellent overall comment Quinn, but specifically regarding the potential of an hysterical GOP.  That is precisely what we want.  We want them to go ballistic.  Instead of trying to get along with those assholes it is time to tell them to fuck off because they are wrong and stick to our guns as the Wisconsin 14 are so wisely doing.  One of Bill Clinton's most useful political observations that many Democrats clearly don't understand was when he pointed out that people/voters will go with and follow someone who is strong and wrong over someone who is weak and right.  That's the key ingredient to Republican political success and Democratic failure since 1980.  We want our enemies to behave as crazy as possible so that there is no chance whatsoever that people will any longer be able to believe that there's basically no difference between them and the Democrats.  The less the differences there are between Democrats and Republicans the more the real Republicans win.  This November made that point as clear as can be.  Republicans now have more seats in state legislatures since 1928 precisely because of the collosal political debacle of DC Democrats playing Republican Lite politics when they should have focused on being Democrats.  Along that line we need to quit kowtowing to their agenda, their issues, and their messages.  The only counter to the agenda of the enemy is not to refute it point by poin, it is to forcefully put forward our agenda, issues and messages which the DC Democrats by and large have failed to do for decades.  You can't win a fight by negotiated settlement.  You win a fight by throwing your best punches and knocking out the other guy.  You don't fight his fight you fight your fight and you fight to win.  You don't fight not to lose.  There are a lot of overeducated, proper middle class Democrats who really do not understand that you have to fight in order to win a fight.


    by oleeb on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 12:26am

    Wow!  You really, really don't get it do ya?

    I had given you more credit than that.  If I were a Republican I'd love hearing what you're saying.  What an easy mark you'd be for them, just like Obama and company, you advocate playing right into their hands. I'm really shocked.


    by oleeb on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 5:30pm

    You are right, Oleeb. I'm just a Republican dupe. I've tried to think as hard and deep as you to understand how manipulative Republicans are, but it's just too much thinking for my poor little brain. Save me from the them Oleeb! Save me!


    by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 8:16pm

    No, you are pretty clearly naive and have exceedingly poor strategic judgment in the middle of a fight.  You seem to think what's going on is a parlor game and not a life and death struggle.  Republicans love to be in a fight with guys like you because they know how easy it is to get you to do what they need.  And the icing on the cake is no matter how many times they kick the asses of folks who believe as you do, ya'll just keep coming back to repeat it over and over and over.  You don't need to be saved.  You need to get a clue about the reality of what is taking place and leave the junior high debate society mentality behind.


    by oleeb on Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:54pm

    You speak the truth, oleeb. I live in Madison, and what's going on isn't theoretical for me--it's really scary, scary as in our whole way of life here will be radically different if this bill passes. It ain't no intellectual exercise for us...


    by madisonwi (not verified) on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 12:06am

    God bless you madisonwi!  Fight em!  And fight em with all you got!  Millions of us are with you because your fight is literally ours too.  If they can roll the public unions in Wisconsin they will expand their attack on unions and democracy nationwide. 

    Remember what Frederick Douglass said:  "Power concedes nothing with out a demand.  It never did and it never will."


    by oleeb on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 12:29am

    Thank you for your words of encouragement. I won't keep commenting off topic, but I've been at the Capitol for most of the protests, and have never seen anything like it. At the last meeting of all the bargaining units of my union (I'm an educational assistant), an African-American teacher said she had once missed a month of school because the Chicago public school teachers were on strike.  She said she asked her dad why the teachers were on strike, and he said, "They must just not want to lie down like dogs." I don't mean any insult to dogs, but her words have stayed with me throughout the last two gut-churning weeks. Perhaps that sentiment applies to the Fab 14 too.


    by madisonwi (not verified) on Sat, 02/26/2011 - 7:20pm

    ABC’s This Week Governors Panel Gangs Up on ‘Cowardly’ Wisconsin Democrats

    by Tommy Christopher | 1:10 pm, February 27th, 2011

    video

    Viewers of Sunday’s This Week were treated to a powerhouse All-Gubernatorial round table consisting of Gov. Jan Brewer (R-AZ), Gov. Deval Patrick (D-MA), Gov. John Hickenlooper (D-CO), and Gov. Nikki Haley (R-SC), all moderated by popular fill-in Jake Tapper. Although the panel was ideologically mixed, you might not have known that given their response to this question: “Don’t you think it’s a little cowardly for the legislators — Democratic legislators in Indiana and Wisconsin just to have fled?”

    ....Whether you agree with it or not, the Democratic legislators in Wisconsin (and later, Indiana) have a strong rationale for their actions that doesn’t include “cowardice,” yet the Democratic governors on This Week’s panel declined numerous invitations to defend their disobedient comrades.....

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/this-week-governors-panel-gangs-up-on-cowardl...


    by artappraiser on Sun, 02/27/2011 - 2:52pm

    Let Republicans try this all they want. It's not simply a stunt one can pull off if one merely has the guts. No. It requires a massive swelling of public opinion on one's side to make it work. Done without such unique circumstances and those in exile would be committing political suicide, as independents and fence sitters would abandon them in droves. Republicans acting as if this were the new precedent will do so at their peril. Can you imagine how well it would look to see Reps flee so as to block a raising of the tax on the highest income bracket to Reagan era levels? Yeah, by all means, let them go right ahead and do that.

    Walker's failing numbers and his moves towards compromise prove that the Dem 14 were right, right meaning "reflecting the will of the citizenry."

    Winning an election doesn't mean you have carte blanche to pass any damn law you please, as long as it is legal. It means you get to try and pass those laws, exposing them the rigors of parliamentary procedure. The exertion of public opinion doesn't begin and end at the ballot box. Such is an extremely impoverished view of democracy, a view that is, undoubtedly, not carrying the day here in Wisconsin. Thank god.


    by Osori (not verified) on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 2:45pm

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