Dr. C: The Unpleasant Exclusivity in Our Educational System
Wolraich: The Grim Possibility Of War With Iran
Heat Win Game Six, Disappointing Nation of Heat-Haters
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Dr. C: The Unpleasant Exclusivity in Our Educational System Wolraich: The Grim Possibility Of War With Iran Heat Win Game Six, Disappointing Nation of Heat-Haters |
Shuts & |
A colleague of mine, a very smart man but not in sync with me politically, told me a few weeks ago that he believes that I will come to my senses before the election and pull the lever for Mitt Romney. I will make this decision, he assures me, based solely on Obama's mishandling of the economy and I will realize that the various issues that I have with the Republican party, Tea Party crazies and the religious right, do not apply to Romney.
Romney is, my friend assures me, a traditional northeastern Republican in the mold of Lincoln Chafee who, I failed to point out, isn't even a Republican anymore. My friend knows that I spent a good part of my career working for another typical northeastern Republican who owns a business magazine and believes that we should have a flat tax.
The takeaway that Republicans like my friend would like east coast liberals like me to embrace is that Republicans of this sort, no matter what they might say to appease the great red masses of flyover country, do not really care about social issues. All they really want is low taxes and minimal government regulation of business and the economy. They will not seek the overturn of Roe vs. Wade because, when it comes down to it, they cannot be bothered. They will not expend a great deal of energy defending the Defense of Marriage Act because they really don't care. Republicans of this sort are not like Rand and Ron Paul, eager to roll back the civil rights movement. Nor are they religious zealots like Rick Santorum, looking to put sodomy laws back on the books. Life under President Romney will, for most Americans, not be much different than life under Obama, at least in terms of social issues.
I don't know if any of you buy this. I certainly do hear from a lot of Democrats who don't find Romney "scary," no matter how many times the guy tells us that he's a "severe conservative."
I don't agree with this assessment. I look at Romney and I see a real square. I see a man whose vision for America and what being an American means, is extremely milquetoast. You cut your hair short, you put on a suit and tie. You carry a briefcase. If you're not the boss, you do what your bosses tell you to do. You know your role. This is a guy who, as far back as high school, has shown disdain and hostility for the freaks and geeks of American society.
Now, maybe it's true that Romney's priorities in office will not involve hot button social issues. But if he really doesn't care, do you think he'd step in as a moderating force in his own party, which has several prominent social conservative extremists in its Congressional ranks? If he wants to appoint Supreme Court justices who think that corporations have the same rights as people, what's it to him if that nominee also thinks that fetuses enjoy those rights?
Then, of course, there is this bit about lax government regulation. For the most part, it's not the government that intrudes on people's private lives. It's corporations. It's employers and creditors and service providers who gather information about us, which they trade and who create and enforce policies that affect people's lives. President Romney would leave a whole lot up to your employer. Like whether or not same sex couples can use family benefits like health insurance or whether or not you can be fired for expressing a political opinion on line. It's not that Romney is going to get involved in such matters, it's that he isn't. He will let your employers treat you however they want and will invite you to find another job if you don't like it. He will support tort reform to keep people from using class action lawsuits against large corporations who may have sold them harmful and defective products. Buyer beware will be the law of the land.
Will he start new wars? Yes, he will probably start some new wars.
Will he seek to partially privatize Social Security and Medicare. Yes. He will try to do those things, as explained in Paul Ryan's budget, which he has adopted. Will he succeed? I don't know, but we'd be better off with him not trying. I agree with Doctor Cleveland that the commentariat will tell America, in the event of a Romney win, that Obama's "liberalism" was soundly rejected by the American people.
I would take it a step further and say that a Romney win will destroy the Democrats governing power for a generation, at least so far as the White House is concerned. Did you notice that after 8 years of Bush, that Obama had to staff his administration with a lot of Clinton administration veterans? This is because, after twelve years of Reagan/Bush and then another eight for George W., the Clinton Administration was the only proving ground for contemporary Democrats. Obama needs a second term in order to continue building the party's base of capable governance. Let's face it, the Democrats need 2016 and 2020 just to get back to an even playing field. Losing now is not an option.
Also, Romney will probably try to fix the economy by laying off a bunch of citizens. Don't think he won't. It's all he knows how to do.
Reuters, June 19, 2013
CAIRO - Egypt's tourism minister tendered his resignation on Tuesday over President Mohamed Mursi's decision to appoint as governor of Luxor a member of a hardline Islamist group blamed for slaughtering 58 tourists there in 1997.
Prime Minister Hisham Kandil did not accept the resignation of Tourism Minister Hisham Zaazou, who remains in the post for now. However, the move pointed to a split in government over an appointment that one critic called "the last nail in the coffin" of the tourism industry.
Mursi appointed Adel Mohamed al-Khayat, a member of al-Gamaa al-Islamiya, as Luxor governor this week, a move seen as a sign of a deepening political alliance between the once-armed group and the...
By Robert Mackey, The Lede @ nytimes.com, June 18, 2013
Includes lots of images and videos.
Last Updated, 6:57 p.m. As my colleague Simon Romero reports from São Paulo, more than 200,000 Brazilians filled the streets in cities across the country on Monday to protest the high cost of living and lavish spending on soccer stadiums ahead of next year’s World Cup, in demonstrations that have intensified as images of police brutality against peaceful protesters spread on...
How Obama's pick to lead the FBI tried to put the brakes on the NSA's surveillance dragnet.
By Marc Ambinder, Foreign Policy, June 18, 2013
[....] Comey, who is said to be President Obama's choice to be the next director of the FBI, has never publicly disclosed exactly what he refused to sanction when he was briefly acting attorney general during Ashcroft's hospital stay, but people briefed on the program who have spoken to Comey say it was the legal rationale giving the NSA quick access to un-sifted telecom and service provider-collected metadata that "drove him bonkers," not the Bush administration's warrantless wiretapping program. There was just no way, Comey thought, to justify an effort that simply...
'Peace and reconciliation' milestone comes after US drops request for formal rejection of al-Qaida as precondition to talks
By Dan Roberts in Washington and Emma Graham-Harrison in Kabul, guardian.co.uk, 18 June 2013
[....] White House officials say they believe the Taliban delegation at the talks represents the movement's leadership, and includes more radical groups such as the Haqqani network. Officials said the US would have a direct role in the talks starting starting this week in Doha, but the substantive negotiations over the future of Afghanistan would then be led by the Afghan government.
"The core of this process is not going to be US-Taliban talks – we can help the process – but the core is going...
According to some well-placed Israeli commentators, the best Israel can hope for is that Assad holds on but only just. That would keep the regime in place, or boxed into its heartland, but sapped of the energy to concern itself with anything other than immediate matters of survival.
In closed-door discussions, analyst Ben Caspit has noted, the Israeli army has put forward its “optimal scenario”: Syria breaking up into three separate states, with Assad confined to an Alawite canton in Damascus and along the coast.
A long war of attrition between Assad and the opposition has additional benefits for Israel following the decision by Hizbullah’s leader, Hassan Nasrallah, to draft thousands of fighters to assist the...
You have put into words, exactly how I feel about Mitt Romney. He is a conservative, he will do whatever it takes to do the bidding of Paul Ryan and those anti-tax, drown the government in a bathtub, Republicans.
I don't just vote for the Democrats because they are so fucking awesome.. hahahahaha... I vote for them because they aren't repulsive, vindictive, regressive, moralizing Elmer Gantry wannabes, who care nothing for the nation, but care deeply about amassing personal power and wealth, but who believe in destroying the government they want to run. And if GWB is any indication of what that belief does to a nation.. well, things can get worse. And yeah, I think he will try to lay everyone off too.
If any truly believe this, they either haven't been paying attention or are choosing to ignore the facts as the GOP fervently declares without end.
And why is it that so many, who tout their liberal credentials, just don't get this? This is more frightening and confounding than the GOP's blather.
Terrific post destor, appreciate.
Romney will stand mute as the GOP purges voters nationally. The demographics are trending against the GOP, so the GOP has to narrow the pool of voters to Conservative whites. Romney's DOJ will ignore any complaints.
RomneyObama will stand mute asthe GOP purgeshis DOJ tries to ignore calls for immigration enforcement and increase voters nationally through AMNESTYThe demographics are trending against the
GOP, DEMS; so theGOPDEMS has tonarrowINCREASE the pool of voters TO REPLACE THEIR ORIGINAL CONSTITUENT GROUPConservative whites.(the ones they kicked under the bus ie. Homeowners, hippies, progressives the unemployed)Romney's DOJ will ignore any complaints. Just as the Obamas DOJ ignored, the influx of illegals, they hoped would be given amnesty in time for the 2012 election and they would replace the democratic voters the corporate Democrats kicked under the bus. ie. Homeowners, hippies, progressives the unemployed
The SCOTUS ruling on both the Healthcare bill and the inaction of the Obama administration, in dealing with illegal immigration, the AZ SB 1070 ruling, will show; the Obama administration was an abject failure and took the country down the wrong road.
Wasted 4 years when the focus should have been on JOBS, JOBS, JOBS.
You can't pay down debt; if you have no JOB.
OBAMA DID YOU FORGET; it's the economy stupid.
......waiting for the reboot
By reboot, do you mean there will come a time when some will boot out all, who are ruining our democracy?
"I write this because what has been missing in recent years is any sense that the ruling elite, the plutocrats, see their lot as in any way tied to ours. And since they’ve given your economic patch-jobs about as much of a listen as our requests for higher wages and more jobs, you may one day start thinking about joining the revolution. If so, we have a place for you. But it won’t be writing love letters to the plutocrats who benefit from our loss.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/06/01/getting-dazed-and-confused-with-paul-krugman/
Tumbril Time!
A tumbril (n.) a dung cart used for carrying manure, now associated with the transport of prisoners to the guillotine during the French Revolution.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/06/01/theres-a-cancer-on-the-presidency-called-barack-obama/
While you are waiting for the reboot , I'll focus on countering the GOP's voter suppression efforts. We all do what we feel is right.
This line of discussion has played out.
Have a nice day.
Yeah run along and put your finger in the holes along the dike.
You're worried about suppression and I and others have shown, the actual tally of the vote, is easily corrupted
Go get another 190K voters to vote
Boss. "You have the liberty of Voting for any one you please; but we have
the Liberty of Counting in any one we please."
"Do your Duty as Citizens, and leave the rest to take its course." - New York Times.
"As soon as I've got you in, open the front door for me."
This is the liberal intellectual equivalent of the irrational OBAMA IS A SOCIALIST redstate post. Fearmongering at its worst. Winning electoral strategy, I think not. I generally find people vote for something rather than against something.
I'm not running a campaign, Dijamo. I'm making an argument, and it's not the equivalent of "Obama's a socialist."
First, I'm saying to take Mitt at his word. He just spent months convincing his party's primary voters that he was every bit as conservative as Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum. When people say Mitt doesn't care much about social issues, I mostly believe them. But not caring cuts both ways. He may not be out to overturn Roe vs. Wade, but he's certainly not going to do anything to protect the privacy wife of women in that regard.
As for his siganture, economic issues -- Romney has endorsed the Ryan budget. That means fundamental changes to Medicare and Social Security for anybody under 50. I don't think I'm fear mongering by pointing that out.
You know, I respect your right not to give Obama your vote and I know it's a thoughtful decision. I think you're making a mistake by giving your vote, in a direct manner, to Romney, a man who does not represent your priorities as I understand them.
Taking a candidate at his word is so foolish. I mean, what kind of presidency would you have expected if you took candidate Obama at his word? Mitt does not represent my priorities, but in MA, he's proven himself to be pliable toward the center.
ANd my redstate comment was too harsh. You have too much writing style and grammar to grace their blog (seriously), but the demonizing of Romney I just don't get it. He seems to me to be as good of a Republican as a democrat could hope for, certainly in my lifetime. Moving the GOP back towards rationality - that's a winner in my book.
Don't worry, I didn't take the Redstate comparison personally. I know a friendly barb when I see one.
That is exactly how I see it!
In the first 100 days of a Willard Administration scores Executive Orders will ensue; all Executive Departments will be headed by Foxes; the Civil Rights Division of the DOJ will be filled with the same pricks appointed by Bush and racist jokes will abound; there will be no challenges to these state laws abridging the right to vote.....
Welcome to hell!
The road to hell, is paved with both democrats and republicans.
A road built to serve Corporatism.
For a very long time, people were warned. not to pin their hopes on Obama. The warnings were ignored.
The referendum of the mid terms was ignored by the Democratic elites.
The Obama administration told us, "they got the message" and the message was, "move to the right" WTF? What geniuses told Obama to move right?
We stayed home, because he moved to the right, WE don't want a right leaning President. The Nation chose a different path in 2008, we weren't expecting Obama to be Bush Lite.
As Molly Ivans pointed out; "You dance with those, who brung you to the party" Adulterer.
Obama forgot; who brung him to the party.
Or did he, and it was us common folk who got screwed.
Bankers bailed out ...homeowners screwed
Corporate profits up ....wages declining.
Drones ...... innocent people killed....
WWJD has become WWGeorgeD?
WELL Resistance....hahahahahahahah
Dante tells us that there are several levels of hell.
I AM SPEAKING OF THE LOWEST LEVELS.
hahahahahaha
But...but...but...
THEY'RE GONNA TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS DAMN IT !
Do we get pitchforks; or are they taken away from us too?
Okay, but if guns are limited only the damned will have guns....but then again they will all be in HELL shooting at each other! ha
Destor, I think you're broadly right.
But I also think you give short shrift to the damage Romney could do with the economic issues he DOES care about.
Have we been talking about income inequality for nothing?
He also appears ready to trash a few agencies and make Education an afterthought.
Will he change the national security/foreign policy issues that animate Obama's leftwing opposition? Will he stop the drones, the detention, the prosecutions of people like Bradley. Not hardly. Especially if we have one or two close calls or even hits.
The bulk of his party is giving him a wait and see approval. If he wants two terms, he can't flip flop on all his campaign promises to be a severe conservative.
Then again, anything is possible!
Yeah, but Pete will Destor be MANLY right!
Aye that is the question!
Heh. Only his hairdresser knows for sure, DD.
hahahahahahahahahahhaahhhah
I am speechless.
hahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha
All they really want is low taxes and minimal government regulation of business and the economy.
What bums me out is that you have a friend who thinks he can flip you if he can succeed in convincing you of that.
Obama has indeed dreadfully mishandled the economy. He has mishandled it precisely because he is an economic "square" whose economic philosophy is not all that different from Romney's.
This dude's a career financial industry executive. Among some of them there is "Obama Derangement Syndrome," defined as not understanding that Dodd Frank let the industry off easy.
Obama's economics have never surprised me. Even if he was law, he was teaching at Chicago.
I would like to see Milton Freeman and Allen Greenspan on a stake surrounded by faggots about to be lighted.
No need to gay bash.
I think they just have a portrait. ;-D
I would think the first Mormon president would govern as cautiously as the first black president and, yes, Obama has been very careful in his choices. I would think being first raises the stakes and dampens risk taking. Knowing that not just you but your culture will be judged by the success of your presidency has to add a level of weight to every decision.
The more vicious of the opposition sure knows it. I think that is why they have been so determined to discredit Obama's presidency. Their Southern Strategy failed them in 2008. If it fails again in 2012, they will lose their place of prominence in the GOP. Good riddance.
That is why liberals, progressives, and lefties should all be as determined to give Obama a second term as they were to give him his first. whether he wants it or not.
Okay
I HAVE HAD IT.
I love you Emma.
But damn!
Willard gives not one goddamn about you or me or anyone making less than ten mill a year for chrissakes.
Willard is the ANTICHRIST.
For chrissakes.
hahahahahahhaahahah
Willard would take the time to speak with a rape victim and tell them about GOD'S PLAN.
Willard already figures that if you do not have a $200,000.00 trust plan to get your kid into college; you are a failure.
Willard is the single most evil person to run for President of the United States of American since Buchanan.
the end
Que?
I love your taste in music, dd. That last one with Leon was terrific but I almost never understand what you are talking about. ;-D It must be that you speak so much from your heart. Politics is very hard on hearts.
I double checked and do not see anything in what I wrote that indicated I supported Romney for President. Quite the opposite in fact.
Still I think he would govern much like Obama has. You have noticed how Obama governs, haven't you?
I apologize Emma.
I am trying to stay out of the game as they say.
Will Willard change the course of human events in some cosmological perspective?
No, but he will change the course of human events in the manner of Governor Walker.
I just see intent sometimes. I see purpose sometimes.
Anyway what do I know?
Chris Matthews just accused me (on CSPAN) of being irrelevant.
And yet irrelevance is my key forte.
Greenwald would agree with you.
All this matters not since I will most probably not be around that much longer to witness the change either way.
At any rate I apologize to you Emma.
I don't think I meant any harm.
I am usually angry because I am powerless and ineffective in all my pursuits and have been for 6 decades. ha
My defense has always been:
But I have not had access to entire file.
I wish to do a series on unemployment sometime. Do you know the Indian Subcontinent has been adding 10 million jobs every year?
And if they do not continue at that rate, the worlds greatest democracy will sink into chaos?
And we are lucky to add a million jobs in the same period, during times of expansion.
I know so little:
Not a problem.
I do the same thing on occasion.
As you perceived, I have given up on the idea that anything we do short-term will make any difference. As others noted a day or so ago, the die is cast. Now we can only watch the game play out.
I spend most of my time reading and thinking about alternatives and there are hundreds of them. It has made me more optimistic long-term.
Remember: "The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven." -- John Milton
Also, this helps
This is one of my favorite songs of all time.
HOW DOES ONE EXACTLY FIX A HOLE?
A hole in the soul?
hahhahaha
Other candidate squareness comparisons:
Candidates Have College, Spicy Chicken and ‘Star Trek’ in Common
It is interesting that upset Conservatives form the Tea Party. Some upset Progressives vow to vote for Romney or wish for Ron Paul. Occupy Wall Street seems to have opted out of the political process.
Would upset Conservatives ever vote for a Progressive to punish the GOP? Would they rather cross lines in an open primary to prop up a weaker Democratic candidate?
Is that the only possibility you see? Do you think that the Tea Party has been a flop when it comes to advancing their politics? If they have been somewhat successful, how did they do it?
Extremely right wing conservatives have taken the chance in many state elections to vote for the nut-job that they felt would represent their nutty values after loudly demanding recognition of their wishes. They won quite a few of those elections over the bodies of incumbent Republicans. In the process they have moved the entire Republican Party in the direction they want it to go. In a couple cases the challenges caused the seat to go to a Democrat. Aren't those Tea-Partiers dumb.
I believe Romney noticed that his party jumped away from him at every inkling that someone else might be electable. He will pay attention to the far rights demands if he gets elected and then wants a second term. All the more reason to defeat him but success does not end there. I believe that Romney believes, like I do, that his party has the guts to dump him. I want a Democratic President who believes the side that elected him will dump him if he is too subservient to the ideology of the whack-jobs on the right.
Makes sense.
And y'see, I think that kind of threat only works if the protesters go to the candidate when he's down 10 points a week before the election and say, promise to do these things and you'll have our votes. Then the candidate agrees, gains 12 points over-night, wins the election and there is a clear correlation between the protest and the candidate winning. Otherwise all you've got after the election is 1) a less-than-perfect candidate voted out, 2) a candidate you like even less, voted in, and 3) a ticked-off group with noses cut off and faces that have been spited.
I agree with you, but would change the above slightly. The argument needs to be broader, especially if said protestors don't represent enough votes to make a difference.
They need to make the case that these "things" will help him win the votes of a LOT of people, not just them, and maybe not even especially them.
Groups are always interested first in their own agenda. But a national candidate, especially in these times, needs to be interested in a lot of groups at once, as many groups as he can without getting torn apart and losing all credibility.
So the case needs to be (IMO): Despite what you, the candidate, may think, these things will appeal to a lot people and here's why we say this.
Resolved the Tea Party did not vote for Democrats. Some Progressives are threatening to vote for Republicans.
Let's cut to the chase here. Some Progressives don't get their way and they decide to abandon ship. The Tea Party forced change.
Progressives argue that the Tea Party has big bucks funding. John Lewis , Martin Luther King, et al were operating on a shoestring budget. Blacks should have been stomped out. Instead blacks persisted. They never voted for the Supremacists.
Russ Feingold lost. Dennis Kucinich lost. Joyce Elliott who was running for the seat held by Arkansas Progressive Vic Synder lost. In 2010 some Progressives decided to stay home to make the Democrats pay. If people are willing to drop out once, what can we expect in the future. The message is don't look to some Progressives for a coalition. Go look in the Independents.
Occupy Wall Street is "leaderless", so who controls the direction? In the long run, those in power are not worried.
Where is the support for the Progressive candidates that people say they want?
I see a lot of griping. I see a lot of theory. I see no coalition building. OWS outreach to minority communities has been minimal.
Some Progressives threaten to vote for Romney and don't care what other Progressives/Liberals think. Other Progressives pine for Ron Paul and ridicule those who are concerned about Paul's position on women's rights and his racial bias.
People on both sides of this issue will vote their hearts and minds in November.
Some of us just don't see the rationale for voting for any Republican.
If you want the Democrats to change, change 'em. .
I think you're saying important things here and above and elsewhere, RMRD.
I'd like to read some good material on the 2010 mid-terms. The whole thing strikes me as peculiar in a number of ways.
• The TP wasn't that old when the elections were held. How is it they managed to elect 60 of their members to Congress in such a short time? Doesn't that seem strange?
• Were all these folks who got elected TPers, or were the TPers only the most vocal and visible?
• The TP candidates were able, it seems, to call on huge money fairly quickly. Are there comparable donors on the progressive side? Progressives seem conflicted about the role of money in politics in a way that the TPers are not.
• TPers, it seems to me, from being able to focus on a few, easy to understand, issues. Principally, lower taxes and less regulation. Progressives are all over the place, trying to solve complex issues like income inequality.
• I think blacks had a similar "advantage" in having great clarity about a number of clear cut issues (even though there was plenty of debate about them). That helped them stay focused.
I was in a rating mood, wasn't I?
I was getting a message that things are hopeless. Let's just give up. There is nothing but despair. Someone mentioned Rep. John Lewis appearing on a program. Lewis' new biography "Across That Bridge" talks about the improbability of winning any gains in the civil right movement in the South. How can you listen to or read his story and come away with the conclusion that we have to give up, or that things can't change.
For those of us who have a base in the Christian faith how can you feel that things can't change until we wait for someone else to initiate a "reboot. How can you see events in Wisconsin and not believe in power to the people? Change is within our grasp.
Even more importantly in Wisconsin, if the voters decide to keep the Republican Governor, you cannot be discouraged. The first blow does not often win the battle. The Governor will have to face the electorate again in two years. Make his every political day in between the next election as difficult as possible. Keep him in court. There appears to be leadership to get that done. If at first you don't succeed, try again. Don't give up.
Instead of sitting back criticizing Obama, fight. People want to demonize Obama, praise Ron Paul and say that Romney wouldn't be that bad because they fear defeat at the hands of all the money and political power of the GOP. Obama is a release valve for a fear of the clout of the GOP.
The GOP is about to outspend Democrats by at least $800 million. The GOP Supremes voted that corporations are people too. Unknown parties can now donate mega-bucks to political campaigns because of a court decision "Speech Now" that followed "Citizens United". I'm supposed to worry about Kagan not being Progressive enough. Forget about Scalia, Roberts, Alito and Thomas.
The attack on Obama is the result of a fear of fighting the real battle against Romney and the GOP. Thankfully citizens in many states ruled by the GOP have come to the reality that the battle with the GOP has to be joined. There is not time to quibble about whether Wisconsin Democrats should have been more pro-active. When you tun to have that discussion with a Democrat, the Republican just shoved a sword through your torso.
We should just lay on our collective backs and let Romney and the GOP have there way. Hey GWB wasn't that bad. We can survive Romney. This is a slave mentality. This is an abused wife mentality.
Let's attack Obama. Let's avoid confronting those big bad Republicans. We really don't have the testicular (or ovarian) fortitude to directly go after those guys.
Life is much easier attacking Democrats.
You have the right attitude and harkening back to the civil rights struggle is the right antecedent.
It brings to mind, a bit, Andrew Sullivan's piece on Obama's "long game."
You say cut to the chase but seem to just want us to chase our tails
Let's cut to the chase here. Some Progressives don't get their way and they decide to abandon ship. The Tea Party forced change.
The Tea Party forced change? Well I'll be damned. What an insightful observation. Also exactly the observation I made in the comment that you are responding to. I made that observation as an example of something that has worked politically, something I wish Democrats would take a lesson from.
Where is the support for the Progressive candidates that people say they want?
I stated how I would show support for a progressive candidate without hurting Obama's chances one iota.
Other Progressives pine for Ron Paul and ridicule those who are concerned about Paul's position on women's rights and his racial bias.
I believe that virtually everybody here who supported anything about Ron Paul were supporting some of his positions and supported him being in the race so that those positions would get some airing. Nobody here is hoping that racist attitudes get more attention.
Some of us just don't see the rationale for voting for any Republican.
Tell it to someone who asked you to vote for a Republican. I make it clear every time I comment on the election that I will never vote for a Republican.
If you want the Democrats to change, change 'em.
Did you read the comment that you are responding to? Everything I wrote was about changing the Democratic leaders by changing the political tactics of the Democratic electorate. But you are right, if I want Democrats to change I should just change them. I wish you had pointed that out sooner. Tomorrow, first thing, I will change them. Consider it done.
The sense that I was getting is that people had given up after their oh so long political battle. Their was a sense that neither party was worthwhile. Neither party had done anything. A vote for one party was the same as a vote for the other. To me it was simply false.
I used the terms "some" and "other" not the all-inclusive "all" to separate those Progressives who expressed those ideas.
I had mentioned the black farmers before. The farmers who were discriminated against by the Department of Agriculture waited over 2 years to get paid foe a settlement decreed by the courts decades ago. Bill Clinton didn't get them paid. GWB didn't get them paid. The farmers never gave up. They had a specified leadership. Even after the Republicans tried to block paying the settlement because of the deficit, the black farmers fought on.
There have been concerns about voter fraud. Groups have been working day and night to battle this attempt to prevent a segment of society from being able to use their Constitutional right to vote. Against tremendous odds, they have not given up. Where are the Republicans decrying this assault? At least the Obama DOJ is taking some action in Florida.
Citizens in Wisconsin are fighting the good fight to push back against a GOP assault on unions. Both parties are the same just doesn't ring true. Let's reward the GOP by voting for their Presidential candidate.
A dictator in Michigan is taking over cities and selling off the people's property against their wishes. Both parties are the same. It doesn't seem true in Michigan. Let's reward 'em by a vote for Romney.
Direct attacks on unions in Ohio? Let's vote for Romney.
To clarify. My rant was directed at folks who repeated say that there is no difference between the parties. I disagree. I was also ranting about voting for Romney to show Obama. That is why I said "some progressives" and "other progressives". It was not directed at you.
On the issue of Ron Paul, if Louis Farrakhan ever had a good idea, I would expect a number of posts criticizing my quoting a racist like Farrakhan because he stumbled on a good idea. Using Ron Paul as a source of ideas, strikes a similar cord. Isn't there any other source for being against the war and the drones, than that racist crackpot?
Let's disregard the 'racist' and 'crackpot' for now. Those charges were thrown around and debated plenty. But no, there are other sources but there were not any other candidates making anything like his case against war and on some other important issues. In hindsight, do you think the electoral process so far this cycle would have been better if Ron Paul had not been a candidate?
Yes, the racist crackpot offered nothing of substance. He was a distraction. Paul was the equivalent of Al Shapton. Sharpton ran on the Democratic side to force the discussion towards the poor. The poverty discussion never happened just like the drone discussion never happened. Paul was a poor candidate for the drone discussion, a sideshow. Sharpton had a similar role in past Democratic elections as a poor choice for the discussion at hand. Both were viewed as crackpots..
The poverty and drone discussions are going to have to come because of outcry from the public. The big focus in this election is going to be the economy and jobs.
As it always is and will be; it keeps us preoccupied. Both sides promising a solution.
But of course; they never do deliver a real solution and the drones, poverty and other important issues, will continue to be put on the back burner.
Both sides saying "The big focus in this election is going to be the economy and jobs."
My faith has taught me that things can change. Life is full of struggles. John Lewis know the battle would continue after making it across that bridge. Lewis is still fighting. Keep looking for defeat and it finds you. Why would you expect a struggle to be easy. Sit back and keep enumerating all the wrongs. Make your list and check it twice or figure out one thing that is ripe for change that interests you and begin chipping away. or you can keep making lists of irritants.
You may be doing this already, but your posts seem pretty hopeless.
Should I "indulge in your illusions of hope"
I too am "willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it."
Open your eyes and ears.
People have fundamental disagreements about the nature of government. Getting a consensus is not an easy thing. The history of Eugene V Debs and the International Workers of the World is an example of the nature of political conflict.
Corollary: you can change Democrats, but only when there's not a threat of big bad Republicans getting elected instead. If so, just sit quiet and support the
troopscandidates.Choices are to not vote, vote for the Republicans, vote for a third party, create a third party or work to change the Democrats. Whatever your choice, it's your right.
Wisconsin voters could have chosen to survive Scott Walker just like the country survived GW Bush and boot him out at the next scheduled election. Enough voters had enough buyer's remorse to want to vote Scott out now.
I am proud to have sent money to encourage those troops!
If you feel that both parties are the same, then just stand by and watch. Win or lose, I applaud the effort. Those my troops.
"It's all he knows how to do."
Well said. And all too true.
What appears to be hopeless, is convincing people that neither party is serving the people.
A vote for either one continues to enslave us.
It is natural for man to indulge in the illusions of hope and pride. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Patrick_Henry
If it had not been for the discontent of a few fellows who had not been satisfied with their conditions, you would still be living in caves. Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization.
Progress is born of agitation. It is agitation or stagnation.
You need at this time especially to know that you are fit for something better than slavery and cannon fodder. You need to know that you were not created to work and produce and impoverish yourself to enrich an idle exploiter. You need to know that you have a mind to improve, a soul to develop, and a manhood to sustain.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs
The constitutional underpinning of the New Deal, Great Society, and federal civil rights legislation rests on an interpretation of the Commerce Clause that is hanging by a thread. This broad construction faces a real challenge by the current Court with respect to the pending challenge to healthcare legislation. It all depends on what a conservative appointee named Kennedy decides. And the way for a moderate Republican to appease a rabid right is to give 'em a Clarence Thomas or two. Here's Chief Justice Scalia, on the meaning of the broad reading of the Commerce Clause that everything progressive in this country rests on:
That, my friends, is serious shit, and a slippery slope that I'd leave to blackboards in constitutional law classes.
Great blog des and I enjoy the comments too, and I wish I could be a better cheerleader--except in the end I ain't one.
Great point and insufficiently noted.
Well that argument would be irrelevant if there was a government run option for healthacre. Of course the government can force you to buy into a national welfare plan (see unemployment, social security etc). What they CANNOT do is force you to buy a product from a private company and financially punish you if you don't. It's not Scalia's argument that is fundamentally unsound. It's the law itself.
So we will watch with glee as the law go down under the Supremes and people currently covered get pulled off.
Just think! Soon, people who can't get insurance won't be forced to buy it!
What price freedom?
The only way to fix it would be have a public option, as should have been done in the first place. But Obama was too dumb for all that. He flip flopped from his campaign positions and all of a sudden the public option became optional and the mandate was mandatory. What an idiot. Don't blame the Solicitor General for being unable to coherently argue a shit argument. The mandate as passed is unconstitutional. The people who get kicked off the rolls have to blame the idiots who passed it, not me for pointing out the GLARINGLY OBVIOUS flaw.
driver insurance
Great response!
Not a good example.
These are STATE governments, which makes all the forcing in the world fine.
Founders would have approved.
i was just making sure we understand that government in general can force us to buy from private companies. now if one wants to get into which level government, then we come back to things like the commerce clause. but we are not arguing that government can't do it, just which facet of the government system can.
The federal government is fully entitled to make me pay for a welfare benefit if they give me the option of a federal plan. They are not entitled to force me to pay money to a private company.
Social Security would not be constitutional if the government made you invest in the stock market with no public option or pay a penalty tax to the federal government and still have no insurance to rely upon.
The only way to resolve the unconstitutional mandate problem is with a public option which you're not going to get from the current Congress but could have been had with the Congress we originally passed the bill with. Obama fucked up healthcare reform badly, and the unconstitutional mandate is going down.
Leaving aside that the Congress we had seriously balked at the public option...
There you go again with those counter-factuals...
What is the difference between the state government forcing you to buy car insurance from a private company (any of a number companies)...and the federal government forcing you to buy private health insurance (from any of a number of insurers).
As far as it's being unconstitutional, this is question that's up in the air, no? I see no reason to accept the reasoning of conservative judges, lawyers, or scholars. Why do you?
The conservative solution--as articulated by Scalia--is not to obligate the government to paying for people without private health insurance.
Since you're now effectively supporting "that side," you should know that.
Correction. The PRESIDENT balked at the public option. Harry Reid and Pelosi wanted to include it once it was clear we were going the reconciliation route. Obama stymied it at every turn, serving his PhRMA and AHIP interests at every turn.
I accept and acknowledge the liberal critique of the law. It doesn't make any sense to put your head in the sand and falsely declare something true you believe is utter bullshit.
The state mandates I buy car insurance if I don't drive? Brilliant response as usual, Trope. What would make more sense is to argue pedestrian insurance - ah wait that doesn't exist.
So for the mere privilege of existing, I am forced to pay money to an insurance company for health care I can't afford to use or pay a penalty tax to the federal government and remain uncovered for medical insurance.
someone sure has integrated the conservative talking points on this issue. if the government provided superb public transportation for all citizens, and no workplace could require owning a vehicle as a requirement for employment, then maybe you might have a point. but the reality (funny thing that) is that for most americans owning a car is a necessity, part of the privilege of existing. i have worked in the non-profit sector pretty much my entire life, and every single one of them required me to have a car in order to perform some of the duties of my job (hehehehe, i said duties). In order to avoid paying for car insurance, I would have to give up working not just a particular job, but in an entire field of employment.
Sometimes even conservatives are (partially) right as in this case. But a person with half a brain would realize I am making a liberal criticism that the law doesn't go far enough, not a conservative argument that the government doesn't have the right to interfere in healthcare. It's just law. If you want the privilege of driving a car, you can be mandated by the government to carry insurance to protect the property of others you may injure. This is managed by the states because driving laws are managed by the states. Furthermore, states vary in their requirements but most require liability and personal injury insurance. No state mandates that you carry car replacement insurance to replace the value of your own car. (Like health insurance requires you insure your own health).
A more logical comparison would be retirement insurance. What you are arguing is essentially the federal government has the right to declare as a public good/welfare that everyone must save for retirement; therefore we will force you to invest in the stock market and there's no public option. It makes no fucking sense. You are leaving people at the mercy of the mercy of the stock market (or insurance companies) with no guarantees they'll ever receive a benefit out of it.
one can get into the particulars, but first and foremost the fundamental point is that there is the general agreement that in order for society to function better (for the common good and all that) a governmental body can mandate citizens to purchase a product from a private company. once one agrees with this is merely becomes whether or not a particular facet of government has the authority to issue the mandate.
so then one gets into all the back and forth about the commerce clause. the argument is not about whether the federal government can in some circumstance mandate such a thing - only whether this particular case is one of those circumstances.
then one gets into the debate whether it is a quality mandate - in other words, the governmental body may have the right to do it, but it may not be a good decision. Just because they have the right (local city government could set the speed limit to 5 mph if they wanted to) doesn't mean they have to do it or should do it for a lot of different reasons. In the case of the stock market, the successful achievement of the objective of the program (increase retirement savings) would be undermined by all the evidence out there (history shows the likelihood of many people losing all their savings is very high). So it would be stupid to issue such a mandate. Whether it would be a constitutionally sound mandate is where the debate comes in.
The point in question is can the government mandate ALL citizens to purchase a product from a private company? My answer to that is hell to the no, particularly if there are so little protections I can't afford to even use the benefit I am being forced to pay for.
Another example of a public benefit is public eduction through secondary school. It is good for the government to provide education for all regardless of whether you go to school or have children; so the government has the right to force people to attend schools and funds public schools with their tax dollars.. What the government cannot do is eliminate public education while forcing every citizen to pay into private corporate for-profit school systems regardless of wheteher they use the services. I think if the GOP tried to do that, you'd be up in arms about how unconstitutional it is. Why is universal healthcare so radically different?
But since the constitutionality is sooooo clear to you, please provide a single example of an existing precedent where this awesome power was displayed for the federal government to force every single citizen to purchase from private companies. Really, I'll wait here for a response to that particular question and none other from you or anyone else who is happy to oblige. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
I believe "regulate commerce" means they can.
Now let's say if there was one precedent, then that would have occurred before there were any precedents. So....you're okay with something occurring only if it has a precedent, even though in order for this precedent to exist it would have had to occur before there were any precedents.
Sometimes one needs to...wait for it...set new precedent. Amazing thing that.
So I am in total agreement that this would be setting new precedent. Now there are plenty of new legal and governmental precedents that have occurred in our society since the founding hundreds of years ago. A long list of those. Many good, many not so good. But regarding the ones that you agree with, would have stood up and said - oh but there is no precedent for that.
Now one can argue whether this particular piece of policy is good or bad or some mix of that. But that is different argument.
And lets be clear here. I am all for a public health care option.
But let's go to your education scenario. In such a scenario, Obama came into the White House, there was no public education system. All we had was private corporate for-profit school system, one which many Americans could not afford and thus we not receiving an education. Congress was split over whether to even change this status quo. Many had no problem with so many not receiving an education, and they were completely unwilling to allow any money to be spent to provide those educational services. Moreover, the corporations involved in this education were incredibly wealthy and powerful. They would be willing to spend billions in marketing in order to ensure the status quo.
So Obama steps in creates new precedents of government involvement in order to ensure that more Americans are able to receive these educational services. Something no president had been able to do for decades, even though everyone was saying it would be nice if everyone had access to this education. Obama retains the existing corporate systems, but his policy opens the doors to many more Americans.
That is your scenario.
Brilliant, so your proposal would be that Obama further perpetrates the private for-profit educational industry by directly subsidizing them with federal funds (subsidies) and requiring every Citizen to pay into it regardless if they use the service. And furthermore you think this would be constitutional. HILARIOUS! Reemeber that if the GOP decides to fully privatize education, you think it's all good constitutionally. Not just policy differences we're talking about here; constitutionally you think it's A-OK.
Moving into a more reality based scenario, let's say the federal government decides to require 2 year or four year college access for everyone. And there is a law passed requiring people to pay into only private for-profit companies with no public options or cost controls, but require everyone to pay for it regardless of if they receive the benefit or a degree. Let's eliminate the public run school options, who needs them? I mean what's the worst that could happen?
http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/06/10/3144247/for-profit-colleges-deepening.html
Hahahahahahahahahahah. New precedents, wonderful new day serving the corporate masters for the "public good". You are on a roll today.
And if the GOP decides to eliminate any public option for Social Security while requiring people to invest 7% of their salary with private companies, again it's all good! No public option or guarantees, but the federal government can force you to give money to the stock market. Good Lord, the things people justify for love of Obama. Given the mandate was public enemy number one for Candidate Obama supporters when Hillary proposed it along with private, private/public and entriely public options and restrictions of amount of premium as percent of income, but when Obama institutes it with zero cost protections and no public options it's all good. Just say you have no principles and don't care about constitutionality of the law itself. It's all about the political for you and defending Obama and his flawed legislation no matter what he does and no matter how ridiculous the "arguments" are.
no it wouldn't be good. policies can be idiotic etc and still be constitutional. I'm not going to say something is unconstitutional just so as to avoid a policy fight.
and no the current status is not all good. I am one of those that happens to believe that it was the best that was achievable, and the next step is to get liberal progressive politicians elected who take it the next step, not go back to the beginning (which your man romney wants). and the fact the progressives can't get control of the congress is the reality that progressives like you they don't want to face - this country sucks in so many way - so you end supporting romney for president as the magical cure all that will bring the new utopia to the country.
i happen to believe that the federal government has broad sweeping powers - like say the endangered species act - but maybe you think that is unconstitutional.
i spent a number of years fighting the private property rights folks and maybe that is where i developed my broad view of federal powers.
of course, just because we disagree, it has to be that I have no principles - well screw you. I believe in working toward achievable ends, not just belly aching that best system is in place. "we should have a public option, therefore since we don't i will tear down what was gained, so much so I'll start blathering republican talking points."
Just as I buy car insurance I may never use - kind of like that.
I am for the public option. You keep going back to education - well, the reality (you have hard time with this) is that we have a long historical tradition, rooted in our culture, of public education. Most people still buy into the notion. My job does put me into the charter school fight so I am quite well aware of the dynamics and the threats to public education right now.
But we don't have a similar tradition with public health care. Well, actually we do, it is called charities.
As I have said before, I worked with donors who will fight tooth and nail to have their taxes raised just a little bit for public health care system, but who will then cut a $5,000 check to help fund the free clinic for people who don't have insurance and can't afford the hospital. This part of the reality we face in this country.
And if they want to privatize education completely - well, show me in the constitution where is mandated that the government provide education to the public. We have to kind of start reading into the constitution about "general welfare" and what that really means. And so i interpret the regulate the commerce as being quite broad. you find it hilarious. fine. laughing is good for the soul.
But here's an idea. Lets not elect those Republicans in the first place. Oh wait, some of our fellow citizens think those ideas are good ideas. Like the ones who will be voting for Walker. Damn this democracy.
And riddle me this - where is the fundamental difference between the government taxing me - taking my money - and then giving it to the health care system for services rendered, and mandating that I take my money and give to health insurance company who gives it the health care system for services rendered?
now i am not arguing the health insurance system is broken and in need of repair. but it doesn't mean we should join the republicans in taking us back a step in some notion that this will get us to the public option faster.
[don't you love that when you have to rebuild the Democratic Party in the aftermath of Obama's loss, you have to pry it from hands. now that's hilarious.]
There are a few weaknesses in your argument, Dij:
• "It's obvious that the mandate is unconstitutional and surely Constitutional Prof Obama should have known that especially as progressives told him that." Well, as it turns out, a number of judges (and others) have said that it IS CLEARLY constitutional. So, whichever way the Court rules, it's simply FALSE to say that the mandate is "obviously" unconstitutional.
• Somehow you think that finding a precedent is key to this argument. It is not. There is nothing anywhere that says a ruling MUST have a precedent. If there were a contrary precedent, you might have a stronger argument. But I would imagine that all those times when the Commerce clause's scope has been expanded are precedents for what is being done here.
• Car insurance is not a good example because people don't have to buy a car. Well, the way most people live in this country--great numbers of them anyway--they do have to buy a car to get to work. It's a shame, but that's the way our sprawl works. Arguing that they don't have to buy insurance because they don't have to buy a car is odd. The actual decision is whether a person needs to have a car. Most people do.
• Car insurance is a proper requirement because if you do decide to have a car, you should be required to indemnify others against damage you may cause. But the mandate requires everyone to buy health insurance to indemnify themselves against damage to their own health. This is not true. In this country, those who aren't insured are automatically covered by the rest of us and the rest of us pay the cost of that coverage (at the ER, the most expensive kind) whether we will or no.
• You are forcing someone to buy a product, enter into commerce. No. The fact is, they are ALREADY in the market. The mandate simply asks them to help pay the freight of coverage they already have and have had forever. The mandate requires a person to indemnify the rest of society against the costs of treating them at the ER. In that sense, it's a pretty close parallel to car insurance.
• There are no cost controls. This is false. In fact, I've seen figures for MA that show a decline in insurance premiums on individual plans of about 40% (as I recall) year over year since the MA plan was installed. The exchanges have cost containment requirements for companies participating in the plan. There is premium support. There is IPAB. There is the expansion of Medicaid. There is closing the donut hole. There is treatment effectiveness evaluations to bring down the underlying medical costs. And, if these don't work well enough, there is the opportunity to improve the plan as long as it's on the books.
• The mandate is okay IF there's a public option. Using your criteria, I don't see why. Unless it is Medicare For All--and even then, people will have to pay premiums. What is to say those premiums will be affordable to person XYZ? Congress can adjust premiums, but they can also adjust premium support to make premiums affordable. And there is expanded Medicaid.
This is the description of FEHB system Hillary proposed people could buy into. Doesn't strike me as a whole lot different from an exchange. Whether she could have maintained a sliding scale for premiums based on income--especially as there would be no government salary to partially defray costs--is a question in my mind.
Especially if huge numbers of people piled into the federally subsidized plans.
As I recall, and as seems to be the case, the main sticking point between ObamaCare and HillaryCare WAS the mandate. Hillary realized she couldn't get plans to waive the pre-existing condition requirement unless there was a mandate. As you say elsewhere--when you're standing on your other leg--Hillary seems to have thought through the obstacles to achieving universal coverage. You seem to think that Obama The Quisling simply caved to the insurance companies, but maybe he came to see that Hillary was right on this point.
I just thought I would also throw out there the point that part of the reason for cutting the deal with the insurance companies was so that they wouldn't spend a gazillion dollars on marketing against the reforms. Now today of course we hear - the only reason Walker will win (and people will vote against their self interest) is because the 1% spent so much more money than our side and confused people. Yet somehow that money dynamic would not come into play when it came to the health care debate.
I wonder what Hillary's plans were to prevent Harry and Louise giving her another buzz cut. If ever there were someone who knew the industry had to be pacified or defanged, it's Hillary.
But as with someone who's died at a young age, her proposal will remain pristine and untouched by reality forever.
Ultimately, the only solution that makes sense and is probably viable politically is Medicare For All. It would be a fight, but one that could probably be won if the timing were right.
The answer of course is to give into every AHIP PhRMA demand so they put up no/token resistance since they'll be raking the dough :)
I think Hillary would disagree with your choice of the word "token."
Dijamo was referring to 2009-2010, the "please don't throw me in that there briar patch" years.
Okay, but Hillary knows that when the industry puts up resistance, it isn't token. But maybe I'm misreading what you and he mean here.
(she). The industry was invited to the back room early in the process, their pain was capped at a few billion dollars, the public option was swept under the table. No, the industry fight wasn't like Harry & Louise in 1994.
But really, if you want to pretend Obamacare was a huge progressive step forward and the 7 year exit from Afghanistan is swift and focused, go ahead. We've reached the end of our waltz.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/11/opinion/11krugman.html?_r=1
http://blogs.reuters.com/talesfromthetrail/2009/07/16/harry-and-louise-switch-sides-in-healthcare-battle/
Sorry, I thought Hillary was a man. Glad you cleared that up.
The point is, the industry sank the last effort. Killed it.
Obama decided to head that off.
Whether this is a "huge progressive step forward" is one of those tendentious questions or statements that isn't worth responding to.
Yes, I prefer a step forward to no step forward.
A smart man; once he realizes he's knee deep in manure and it appears to be getting deeper as he goes; maybe it's time to take a step backwards, turn around.
We didn't get the Socialist Healthcare plan; (Medicare for all) we got the one written by those opposed to Hillary care; the insurance companies, written in a way to avoid pissing them off, so we allow them too write it, to reward themselve.
The 2008 election wasn't about, rewarding the obstructionist leeches.
"Change we can believe in" outright sellout is what I see, as the change
If the capitalists couldn't make a buck and enrich themselves we wouldnt have had healthcare?
Are we working for WE the people or they; that put money ahead of all other considerations.
Trapped and held hostage by those who love money more than the people.
"Come forward
sucker; Step right up sonny; have you ever heard of the shell game?Medicare for All was never proposed by the leading candidates.
Exactly, why would a CAPITALIST candidate suggest it?
A plan equivalent to Medicare was proposed as an option for all by one of the major candidates. You wouldn't be mandated to take it, but you had the option of choosing it or a federal employee like plan if you didn't like the employer plan offered. That's a huge leap in the right direction. As opposed to just mandating people buy insurance from private companies that are already fleecing consumers with no minimal consumer cost protections.
Except that BOTH candidates proposed it.
The candidate you speak only passed it in your dreams.
The first time she tried, she failed.
Nope, Obama didn't propose a medicare for all plan. Just the private/public plan. In fact he kept his proposals as vague as possible (easy to do when your plans are not challenged like Hilalry's were) except he was clear there needed to be 1. a public option, 2. no mandate, 3. very public discussions and no backroom deals. Strike 1. Strike 2. Strike 3.
Hillary significantly changed the proposal from her failed attempt allowing more choice to stay private. And as you may have noticed, health insurance companies were not as popular as they were when hillarycare was proposed. Better to try and fail, than let the insurance companies write the plan, pass an unconstitutional bill and fuck up healthcare reform even longer term.
I thought your assertion about the mandate was that it was fine IF there was a government or public option. Obama had one. Now it has to be "Medicare for All"?
As I recall from the 1990s, there was HUGE public demand for universal health care. The Clintons had the opposition on the ropes, initially, until the opposition went to work.
Whether she would have succeeded this time...no one knows. It doesn't do much to say she changed her proposal this time; it would have been idiocy not to have. But that doesn't mean it would have passed intact. Very few proposals do.
I grant you she seems to be more of a fighter and would probably would have been braced for the trashing she'd experienced from the right for a long time.
Obama was naive in this respect. Hillary would probably have not promised the level of transparency and no backroom dealing Obama did--just as she was more realistic about the role of lobbyists in our system.
It does not good to keep repeating that the bill is "unconstitutional" when that hasn't been decided and scholarly opinion and decisions from judges point in the opposite direction. But I can't see into the future, and I can't read counter-factuals either.
In terms of screwing things up long-term, I'm glad you can read the future. You should charge for that. But I do read that the GOP, panicked a bit at not having a plan of their own to "replace" ObamaCare are thinking about keeping the most popular parts of it, even if the mandate is struck down.
As far as I know, NO parts of Hillary's plan were kept--but maybe I'm wrong.
But I AM a bit surprised at your animus toward ObamaCare inasmuch as it's pretty much the same as the plan your man passed in MA and argued for on a national basis.
I think PP was trying to hint that dijamo is a "she." Which I am. I only voted for Hillary because she had ovaries, not because of her way more progressive plans on healthcare, foreclosure prevention, etc etc as many dag mind-readers inevitably point out.
Sorry didn't know that.
I also thought you'd said you'd voted for Obama--but okay.
You and PP continue to think I have something against Hillary or Bill.
I do not. I voted for Bill twice and worked for him once. I thought and think he was a good president.
In 2008, I would have been happy if Hillary had been the candidate and had won. I would have worked for her and given to her campaign.
I think she would have made a good president. I'm not at all sure she would have been more progressive on foreign policy, however. She struck me as hawkish. So I could easily see her responding to various threats with the use of drones, which I think was our point of departure. But who knows?
In terms of positions, I look at them, but only put some faith in them. Even with the best of intentions and efforts, things change a lot when the game clock starts. As you've pointed out, Obama also had a public option in his proposals. Whether Hillary would've got hers passed...well, maybe, maybe not.
I have no idea if you like Hillary or not. Don't really care.
It still amazes me that Obama is viewed as the dumb screw-up and the obstructionist Republicans get rewarded by a vote for their newly Tea Party house-broken Presidential candidate, Mitt Romney.
Romey's wife suffers from MS an illness that attacks the nervous system. The cost of the drugs is huge enough that even when insured, you can go broke from medical bills.Romney can foot the bill because he's wealthy. The rest of us don't deserve access to care.
And if he wins THEN, SUDDENLY, the neutered Democrats will become balls of fire and fight him tooth and nail until he reverts to the Caspar Milquetoast governor of MA he once was. This is an argument existing in a vacuum. It's dying for lack of oxygen.
FEHB and a Medicare like entirely federal option. Did you notice the entirely federal Medicare like option which was the default if you didn't elect private or FEHB like plan. Try again :)
Well, it was actually hard (for me) to find links to the plan itself from the horse's mouth. The ones I found had been disabled.
But this is a pretty good discussion from the American Prospect. I agree, it sounds like a pretty good plan, but not without some obvious potential obstacles and details where the devil would be found.
Especially in light of the way the economy went down hill, some of this strikes me as politically problematic.
I have seen no discussion of how the constitutionality of the mandate, which she stressed, would be established by this public option. Constitutionality doesn't seem to come up at all.
There's an unstated assumption that the Medicare option would be affordable to all. But why would this be so necessarily? And now that Medicare itself is under attack as "too costly," I don't see how Hillary would have avoided a plethora of attacks or necessarily won the day.
The other piece I wonder about is this: Assuming the Medicare/public option were dirt cheap, why would anyone not choose it? Does it provide less or poorer coverage? Would there be restrictions that wouldn't apply to private plans? What would the advantage be of staying with an employer or private plan?
I think the Medicare For All option is necessarily all or nothing at all. I say this because I don't see how private plans could compete with it. And then, you have to plan for all the people in the insurance industry you are going to put out of work. A side issue to this discussion, but maybe not in terms of the politics of this change.
Overall, once the plan had passed, I believe a lot would have to be worked out, ironed out and adjusted, which is my principal point about ObamaCare. But it's hard to do that when it's under constant attack and repeal is threatened.
Here are a few quotes that jumped out at me.
http://prospect.org/article/hillarys-own-plan
well done, sir.
This can only be done at the state level. The federal government has no provision to force you to buy a private good.
If they can force you to buy Tweedledum or Tweedledee, and both are owned by the same person? Not only do you have a tax, you have forced extortion.
Why?
But it's not the same person.
I believe the "regulate" of the regulate commerce means they can. But I tend to be a socialist in these matters.
I would add that some of the work I do with those in poverty is attempting to address the problems that emerge when the family car decides to not work anymore. In my community we are watching public transportation suffering more budget cuts, a trend that will probably continue. Aside from getting to work, there are those in the rural areas that can't access health care or make into "town" in order to get things like energy assistance, or apply for employment. I have no idea where you live or your situation, but I can tell you there are many people for whom a car is not a luxury, and the suffering they endure as a result of not having a car (or even the added financial burden of paying a fine for driving without insurance) is very real.
No one said a car is a luxury. However you must have liability insurance if you damage the proerty of others. There is no basic human right to own a car. When the state starts givign cars to everyone, you would have a point. Until then, you are making a ridiculous argument comparing apples and kangaroos.
Something is either a luxury or it is a necessity. Now of course in the big scheme of life, a car is not a necessity to continue breathing as a rule. And there are people who don't own cars and live quite well. But when we look at how life is - out there in the real world - it is a necessity for something called the quality of life. The conservative thought would be it is not society's role to concern itself with something like improving the quality of life for people. That's the liberal perspective. And given reality of life for a massive swath of Americans, not having a car decreases the quality of life in such a way that not it creates a downward spiral for less and less quality of life.
So no, it is not a basic human right. The Human Rights Commission shouldn't concern itself with whether people have access to cars and affordable car insurance. But to sit there and make the assertion that owning a car in our society is a choice of the individual is a conservative talking point in order to push the less government is better agenda.
The issue isn't about having a car, not having a car. It is not about access to preventative health care or no access. It is about the government stepping in and attempting to mandate actions by citizens based on a perceived notion of improving the quality of life for the society as a whole.
It is in everyone's best interest that we all have car insurance, even if some of those who buy it never have to utilize the benefits of that insurance. Their mandated financial sacrifice (they were mandated to do something even though they didn't do any damage that needed to be insured against) is deemed appropriate. Now we are dealing with a similar mandate in the realm of health care. The debate as to whether we better off as a whole or not is where the argument should be.
Remember: there are a lot of services involved in the health care system that one would have a very difficult time arguing is a basic human right, but merely an improvement in the quality of life.
But argument was...owning a car was a necessity.
Necessity does not equal basic human right. It's illogical. Access to a car does not equal access to living. Yes it makes life less convenient, it does not make life impossible. One can exist without a car and not pay car insurance. Once cannot exist without paying a private company health insurance (or be taxed as a penalty) under Obaam's individual mandate. Apples. Kangaroos. Not comparison in the least.
And some will argue a triple bypass surgery because one ate oneself into obesity is a basic human right either. But you seem to be arguing for the need for access to health care for all (as a basic human right) and then trying to jump from this to say this is why the mandate should be declared unconstitutional.
I would argue access to clean drinking water is a basic human right. Yet I am forced to pay a private company for access to it in my home. There is no public water source where I can go, should I choose to, and get my own water free of charge. How dare I be forced to pay private companies for water, and food, and a warm place to sleep in the dead of winter.
Are you really "forced" to buy water from a private company? Certainly not by the fed govt that has no constitutional power to enforce that. The powers reserved to the states and all. Does your state force you to buy water from a private company if you own your own well? And charge you a tax if you don't buy water from a private company. Point me to such legislation. Otherwise. Again. Another celery and pandas comparison. Still waiting for a direct precedent / corollary.
Margaret Thatcher's poll tax - paid to a private Inc.?
You've certainly bought the Republican "argument."
No matter how many times it's been torn apart.
BTW, the reasoning you condemn is precisely the argument--"tax incentives"--that your man Mitt made in MA and recommended as a model for the country.
Of course, now, in one of the principled stands that I'm sure attracted you to him in the first place, he's promising to repeal it.
Dij,
I think the commerce argument is inextricably tied to every single piece of economic and social legislation since 1935. Assuming, however, that a more narrow construction of the Commerce Clause would allow the government to offer healthcare as an option as you suggest--and I don't think that's correct--what about everything else that's based on a broad reading of the Commerce Clause? Parade of horribles? Maybe? But who would have thunk that the chief justice of the United States Supreme Court would, in 2012, begin to pick at the very essence of everything we've achieved from the federal government since my Daddy was in kindergarten.
And the other thing is that even if we move from the commerce clause, what makes us think that a Supreme Court appointed by a moderate republican will not attack other bases for federal social welfare programs in favor of the rights reserved to the states under the 10th amendment? I really do think that we've been lulled into a false sense of security about what the Supreme Court did in the 1930s through the 1960s.
I agree re: the Commerce Clause and that's why you pass laws correctly. This wasn't a flaw that was mentioned at the time. Obama disregarded the voices of those who said a mandate requires a public option to be constitutional (and the logic and the entire body of precedent). Our great constitutional law teaching President is that dumb. If the SC decided the individual mandate ont he merits of it alone, I think you'd get a 7-2 decision. I predict 6-3 against the mandate. And I think Sotomayor is going to base her decision on the constitutional flaw of the law itself rather than Kagan who is purely political and will sign off on anything Obama Administration is for regardless of the legal / constitutional arguments at issue.
So, if the mandate stands, you will then say he was smart?
A president always ignores some voices who may turn out to be correct.
Yes, I will say he was smart if the mandate stands. Which it won't.
I will add, however, that I absolutely and unequivocally reject the notion that in urging a vote for the boring and disappointing Democrat, that is not the same as urging people to play see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. That's just a false choice. There are real reasons to rest on the better of two choices, but anyone who thinks the election of a Dennis Kucinich is all progressives need to change society needs to rethink things, and big time.
There's a whole friggin' world out there, lots of things to protest, lots of things to get our hands dirty with, and lots of things to do, whether we vote Democratic or not. But we cannot change the composition of the United States Supreme Court, we cannot appoint the person who will head important federal agencies, and we cannot help that lots of everyday government is both important and like watching paint dry at the same time.
The old adage that Democrats fall in love should probably be changed to: Democrats NEED to fall in love with their president, while Republicans only need to fall in line.
Perhaps it comes from their different views of government: Republicans only want their guy to perform a few simple function, mostly stop a lot of Democratic stuff.
Democrats want their guy to change the world, or at least our part of it.
They could use a tidge more of the Republican "falling in line" simply because unity leads to greater effectiveness and prevents getting waylaid by losses, disappointments and endless internal squabbling. It allows the group to play the short and long game at the same time. Pocketing any and all gains and continuing to seek more.
To pick up on RMRD, it helps the group keep its eyes on the real prize.
Again what I was seeing as a theme was it doesn't matter, both sides do it. Both sides are the same. Romney would have appointed Sotomayor (BS). Kagan is as bad as any Romney appointee would be. Romney will be as supportive of reproductive rights as Obama.
There was also a sense of defeat.Nothing will change.
People are depressed about how bad things are today. Fannie Lou Hamer brought a black delegation from deep South Mississippi to take seats at a Democratic National Convention in defiance of Mississippi party leadership. They had to return to Mississippi after Their public display. I just don't accept the life is so bad now meme.
People in Wisconsin, Florida, Ohio and Michigan can tell you about the different life they have under the GOP. I don't accept that Romney won't be that bad.
Paul Ryan is willing to defy the views of Catholic bishops and scholars to push his personal worldview of Catholic charity via an odious budget plan. This is the GOP point man on the budget. It is possible that Ryan will be the VP candidate. Tell me again that Romney won't be so bad.
I simply Have a difference of opinion with the benign Romney theme.
If virtually everything some people post is a variation of "I hate Obama so much that I'll work against him" or "the two parties are no different", I will voice my opinion in opposition.
Hat Tip to Chez Pazienza, Mitt Romney promises a whiter America:
I'm responding down here, before the letters start spewing out the right side of my monitor. FYI my "animus" toward the law is shared by 70% of Americans http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/07/new-poll-the-supreme-court.... Sure the Wisconsin recall election a stunning and stupid defeat by progressives who lost by less than 10% because we lost the battle for public opinion", yet Obama's healthcare reform is groundbreaking and brilliant despite the fact people really. really. hate. it. Even though there was no Harry and Louise effort from the insurance companies who LOVE this bill since they wrote it, the vast majority of the American people despise it. With good reason. Because it serves the corporate interests and does not directly impact most Americans in a beneficial way. So Democrats are left holding the bag on republican health care "reform" that is even worse than Romney's plan that people hate and is impossible to sell on it's merits.
There aren't going to be a lot of tears when it goes away. Obama/Romney care is almost the same deal, except if insurance is deemed "unaffordable" the penalty for the mandate is waived (more liberal than Obama!) I'm more in favor of Vermont-care :) http://www.salon.com/2011/05/26/us_health_care_vermont/singleton/
And I've informed you before that Mitt Romney is not my man. Sometimes you have to vote for people that are not your man but serve your purposes as you define them at the time. I look forward to pressuring Romney to move leftward and depend on the Dems to pressure him to or become the progressive party of NO. And I look forward to taking him down in 2016.
No, but there was a massive disinformation campaign.
The Democrats have not shown the inclination you seek thus far, at least as far as I can see. In fact, I expect a Romney win to bring movement to Congress because the Democrats still believe in compromise and getting something done. IOW, he will find many cooperative Democrats.
Here's why I think this: Both Republicans and Democrats have bought into the logic of economic "austerity." In foreign affairs, you can expect Romney to be at least as hawkish as Obama has been, and no politician period wants to be seen as "coddling" AQ. So I don't see a lot of hope there.
But the future is inherently unknowable. You were certain about Wisconsin and were wrong. I could be wrong here (and would have to hope that I am if Romney wins).
Walker had a solid win that can't be hidden by resort to percentages. (I also think it was a solid win, in a different way, for progressives and supported the effort. I try to make that case at Ramona's blog.) Converting to percentages is a good advertising trick, but it is a trick.
Over at FB, this guy was trying to tell me that the middle class had done really well because they had a 10% increase in their median income from 1980 to 2000, not bad for a mature economy, he said.
I had to point out that, 10% or no, going from 36K a year to 40K a year was still only a $4,000 increase in income over 20 years. Not good. If I have a penny and I get a penny, I've doubled my wealth, but I still only have 2¢.
By the standards of a lot of elections, Walker had a solid win.
Anyway, good luck with your plan.
I understand your rationale, but I disagree. Michael Moore told us a vote for Nader would not matter, it would just be a protest vote. Ed Schultz called for a boycott of the Democrats in 2010 if they did not "come around". The consequences of both decisions were devastating. I see no good coming from a Romney Presidency.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUJii0bZqhE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
The good thing about the US, at least for now, is our right to vote. You vote your way, I vote mine.
We hate what the Republicans are doing.
So, we're not going to vote for the Democrats.
That really worked.
What Big Eddie didn't understand in his understandable anger was that elections are zero sum games, except at the primary level.
If you don't vote for the Democrat, the Republican wins.
"I don't care who's up against Reid." Really? You don't mind Sharron Angle? You don't mind losing the Senate?
Thanks Big Eddie.
I see he's not recommending this "strategy" any longer. Maybe he saw he was even deeper in the hole after the election.
The real confusion for me is that I really haven't seen any other political group in the US use the vote for the other guy tactic. If it has been used successfully, I'd like to know where.
I think it's been used from time to time in primaries where they have "open" primaries. So Mitt, apparently, voted for Tsongas in the Democratic primary, because he disliked Clinton or maybe thought Tsongas would be a weaker opponent.
Doubt it's very effective.
Actually abstaining just from voting for president (while voting on all the other candidates) was my preferred method. Absolute disgust with what Obama's drone wars, declaring the imperial power for targeted assassinations even of American citizens with no due process, his disgusting Osama head on a pike ad, and the fact that no one in the Democratic party challenges him on any of this? That drove me to vote FOR Mitt. I'm just choosing between Republicans at this point, and Mitt Romney has not had the opportunity to be as disgusting as Obama has been (and when he does, at least the Democrats will criticize him.)
A large scale challenge to Obama would have guaranteed a Republican win.
Romney has shown to be disgusting. He proudly stands with a birther. He is getting big bucks from billionaires. If Obama is a puppet of the oligarchs, why is so much money being directed towards Romney. I mean don't they already have their guy in the White House?
Romney can't bring himself to criticize Limbaugh for calling a woman a slut. He fired a Gay advisor because a lesser known radio host told him to.Even that radio host ridiculed Romney's lack of a spine.
Romney told a cash strapped college student to find a cheaper college.
Those things are just off the top of my head issues that they me Romney is not to be let anywhere near the White House.
To me, it's like Ron Paul love.Let's just forget his racist, anti woman, anti-educational tendencies, he'll get us out of the war. That is not a wise basis for supporting Paul.
The likelihood that Romney will get us out of Afghanistan any sooner than Obama is nil. The chance that Romney could do long term damage to the Supreme Court is high.
Obama will stop the drones before Romney.
Cultivating Progressive candidates for the House and Senate who would provide a buffer no matter whether a Liberal, Centrist or Conservative got elected President.
That would keep Romney from pushing back women's rights and educational grants back. The Koch brothers expect an ideological return on their dollar that they don't see themselves getting from Obama.
Silly me, I don't think refusal to disavow birthers sufficiently is as disgusting as obama's drone policy. Priorities and all. And I am fully behind more progressives in Congress, but not if they will be foolishly manipulated/pressured to to along with whatever Obama says without criticism for fear of embarrassing him. If Romney was doing the same things, those progressives can confront him. Less blue dogs to give Romney cover.
Voting rights, educational grants and women's rights are also important. Romney wants to use drones in Pakistan. Romney wants to increase the defense budget and expand the drone program. Expect Romney to get what he wants in the budget. The GOP leadership has called for an increase in the defense budget. The GOP is telegraphing what they want.
Romney will sell the drone system as a faster way of settling issues in the Middle East. The public, will give him the OK to do this since he will be in his "honeymoon period".
A vote for Romney will be a vote for doubling down on the drones. The Democrats will be neutered.
Result more drones, continued assault on voter's rights, a continued attack on educational grants and the continued GOP war on women.
Obama on the other hand will face more public pressure to get out of Middle East entanglements and there will be fewer drones.
Romney = more drones
Obama = fewer drones
1) What is the President of the United States doing to protect voting rights and women's rights? When George Tiller was assassinated, he made a quick statement about violence not being the way to settle differences - and then Tiller's clinic boarded up and that was it. Similarly, voting rights - how come the DoJ has time for medical marijuan searches, but not guaranteeing polling rights? Florida's still holding out - 12-15 years of abuse. How crippled is that?
2) Beware - the next president may do more of what the current president is doing. Except by lowering troops, we'll rely more on drones, guaranteed, whoever's president sadly. (Yes, Obama will expand the drone program too - though he might blame it on Congress if he has to). Obama expanded the drone programs in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, elsewhere (including now domestic use). Still trying to make the war president the peace president. Some circles won't square.
CIA Drone Strikes in Pakistan 2004 – 2012
Obama strikes: 278
Total reported killed: 2,479-3,180
Civilians reported killed: 482-832
Children reported killed: 175
Total reported injured: 1,192-1,308
For the latest Pakistan strike data clickhere.
US Covert Action in Yemen 2002 – 2012
Total confirmed US drone strikes: 31-41
Possible additional US operations: 87-96
Possible additional US drone strikes: 49-55
Total reported killed (all): 317-826
Total civilians killed (all): 58-138
Children killed (all): 24
For the latest data from Yemen click here.
US Covert Action in Somalia 2007 – 2012
Total US drone strikes: 3-9
Total reported killed: 58-169
Civilians reported killed: 11-57
Children reported killed: 1-3
For the complete data on Somalia clickhere.
Nice graphics. Using the tactic of voting for the other guy didn't bring desired results with the Nader vote. Staying at home in 2010 ushered in the wingnut Governors. I have not seen evidence to support that those type of tactics work.
You may not have noted the Ledbetter Act or that the Catholic Church felt compelled to sue the Obama administration specifically for issues related to women's reproductive rights.
The Florida purge happened this year. The DOJ issued a stop order. The election supervisors have stopped the purge.
There are many issues at stake. There is a difference between Obama and Romney.
Look at the money the billionaires are pouring into the election. Wouldn't those be wasted dollars if Romney and Obama got them the same results?
Your point is?
So the richest republicans prefer to back the big (R )republicans
and the small (r) democrats want a piece of the
spoilspie.Both parties needs the industrial slave(s) class to support them.
The principle in which they subscribe to. Industrial slaves are a commodity, to be found anywhere in the world.
"The Republican and Democratic parties, or, to be more exact, the Republican-Democratic party, represent the capitalist class in the class struggle. ....
They are the political wings of the capitalist system and such differences as arise between them relate to spoils and not to principles."
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs