Michael Maiello's picture

    Work Is Not Essential To Dignity

    The notion that work is dignity sure seems convenient for those whose fortunes depend on other people's willing labor.  Or, hey, I don't want to make my own sandwich, so grab yourself some dignity and a block of swiss, my friend.

    The issue has been raised regarding Obamacare which, functioning as promised, has decoupled some people from the work force as they are now able to get health insurance through the government exchange rather than through their employers.  We won't know for some time if people are leaing to pursue their own business ideas or if they are leaving to follow their bliss. 

    Paul Ryan doesn't like this very much.  To him, people voluntarily leaving the work force and using a government program for help is worse than mass involuntary lay-offs.  It confirms his dismal view of human nature which is that people only work to avoid the harsh consequences of starvation, poverty and illness that awaits those who won't play along.

    There are people out there who would look at somebody who toils at a job they hate just to maintain access to medical treatment for a chronic illness and say, "Good, the system works."  These same people have a lot to say about the dignity of work, but that scenario doesn't sound dignified at all, does it?

    I actually do agree with Ross Douthat that we need to have a big national conversation about work.  The fundamental question is whether work is a feature or a bug of modern society.  I have always viewed it as an ill that should be cured.  The Star Trek vision here is that technology will eventually end material scarcity making everything from that sandwich to a Stradivarius something you just fetch from the replicator.  This doesn't mean that people won't work but they will follow their passions.

    The other view is that you really can't trust people with that kind of leeway. It views work as a form of social structure and maybe even social control.  We need to decide if work is something we want to get rid of or if it's a necessary part of society.  We know where Paul Ryan stands and we know where the "Communitarian Republicans" of Douthat's imagination stand.  Count me on the anti-work left.  There has to be a better way to spend our lives.

     

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    Finding your blog was the best thing that has happened to me this year, so far. :-)


    Thank you.   I am also glad, for your sake, that it is only February.


    From the standpoint of those in the 1900's  I think they believed the vision of a mechanized future, as presented at the World Fair, would  permit people more time, for family and leisure and not so the fat cats could make more profit.


    Yes!  And they had the right vision, I think.  "A machine will help me finish this work in half the time so I can go fishing!"  Instead we got, "With this machine's help, I expect you to double your output."


    I am a boomer who always vowed I would not be like the parents of my generation who couldn't program the VCR. I clearly saw what you are talking about. Before word processing, people did not expect perfection in documents. Dealt with that. Before voice mail, and then cell phones, you had a slower time frame on communication and more time to think deeply. Dealt with that (the latter changes that are enormous, actually, more than people will admit.) Etc., hundreds, thousand of examples.

    But I did not envision the enormity of what is happening.

    The technological innovation thing has become a rapidly increasing treadmill, like the famous I Love Lucy episode of a candy factory where Lucy and Ethel cannot keep up. A brother and I were talking about this the other day, we don't want to give up, but sometimes we give up, because we cannot keep up.  Every other day something little happens like they change the access menu on your email, and you waste a lot of time trying to figure out the new way to do something that took you seconds to do the day before. We are always, every day, in school being taught some new tool. Learning the tools is our job. You thought you knew how to use a washing machine or refrigerator and would not have to learn again? Nope, sorry. You thought you figured out how to buy health insurance and could move on to other things? Nope, sorry. You thought you figured out how to use Facebook and Google and could move on to actually using it to communicate? Nope, sorry, new rules and procedures out today and again in a few months. You thought you figured out how to shop online or to track packages online? Maybe so, but that won't last long, it may change tomorrow. Etc. etc. etc.

    We have gone so far beyond the meaning of the term planned obsolescence that it really means nothing anymore. Our work is dealing with new tools, every fucking day competing with others who have learned how to use them, in a great worldwide competition.


    I have been reading Dan Kervick's twitter feed on a regular basis for some time. He has had the conversation that Douhat calls for with lots of people on economic blogs and with lots of libertarians and with quite a few anarchist types as well.

    He has decided: everybody has to work at a regular job equal in effort to everybody else, and everybody will want to work at that job if society is set up correctly.

    He feels it is necessary for us to have a wonderful society. He calls it things like "an essential social contribution." He never says "let the bums who can work but refuse to work starve to death." He just won't address that issue. It's like he thinks that issue wouldn't exist, that no one would turn down work, if what they were offered was advertised as/set up as an essential contribution to society.

    I keep going back to read more because it's hard for me to fathom someone that smart who loves the idea of work so much and thinks humans need it so much. And I always still find him proselytizing on it. I admit have gotten a little obsessed. It amazes me to find someone who thinks work is not only extremely important to the human essence and dignity, but will make human beings joyful. A bunch of happy dwarves whistling while we work. Someone who does not think like I do--I see cavemen trying to figure out how they could get out of doing their share of work as soon as they got smart enough to do so.

    Here's his latest string on topic. He talks about it at least once a week if not every other day

    Never any recognition that not everyone enjoys the regimented kind of work that keeps a society going and will not get a sense of dignity from it, but will rather, get depressed about it. That it's not that unusual to find people, like me, who actually found work that they always dreamed would make them happy, through a incredible tough slog of years and also some luck, and then found out it didn't make them happy at all. But that the "dream work" became a grind no different than, or even worse than (because of the stress and the reality of what that work, and the people in it, was like) the waitress jobs it took to get there.

    No recognition, either, that a lot of people and other cultures value other things over work for purposes of human dignity, like family or religion, for two examples.

    Sometimes Dan's twitter statements about work sound almost scary to me. Some sound straight out of the loudspeakers on the streets in a dystopian futurist novel (i.e., 1984 or Brave New World or Fahrenheit 451...)  I think of Protestant Work Ethic (New Hampshire and all.) Makes me think of museum curators I know who have a job that was once their passion, but now can't wait to retire so they can do what they feel like doing every moment of the day, like sleep more, watch TV, play the piano and read when it's a crummy day, go out for a walk and smell the roses when it's a nice day. I sometimes even think of the Arbeit Macht Frei signs when he says certain things. It's all good will on Dan's part, he's become a passionate radical on this who wants to see society become better and thinks this will do it. And it gives me nightmares. About people like Dan getting ahold of society and telling everyone what work they will do and how it will make them happy and dignified. And other things like how I will have to deal with the people placed in government jobs that aren't really truly happy to be there...


    P.S. One of the best quotes ever:

    Nobody on their deathbed has ever said "I wish I had spent more time at the office".

    I never knew the source, just looked it up now. Apparently it was Rabbi Harold Kushner. No surprise that it came from someone who values religion (to be clear: not that I do, just that I believe there are other things that can make for human self-worth and dignity.)


    On Dan... I think that very few people would opt out entirely, were work not necessary for survival.  We are a reasoning and creative species.  I write, in various forms, to make my living.  But I also write for free a lot.  I know that everybody else gets paid to write at Dag, for example, (ha) but I do it because I can't not do it.  I don't know that this is productive but, it is work.  If Dan envisions a world where everybody contributes what they can't help but contribute, that seems a good goal to me.  But the idea that people do what they would rather not do in exchange for a basic chance at survival seems like an arrangement we should try to evolve beyond.  But this is all theoretical.  I have no answers beyond "Build Star Trek" tech.  Should that happen, we'd be able to see the contribution of every backyard saxophonist and basement poet.  Until then, in a world of scarcity, we need more tangible results from people's efforts.

    In any event, I'm following him now. Thank you!

    As for the more immediate stuff... yes.  I see and deal with it daily -- a software upgrade that changes the way you have to do things.  It's not catastrophic but it takes energy and like you I try to stay on top of it all but not everyone in the office can. Sometimes, it's not your adaptation that impacts your work flow, it's everyone around you...

     

     

     


    In any event, I'm following him now. Thank you!

    Warning: he's become extremely anti-libertarian and fairly anti-capitalist. The selfishness of those of us who like a little bit of freedom in this or that is the only thing standing in the way of Dan's ideal society. I get this message: an honest day's work for an honest day's pay is the way to socialist heaven, and those that aren't into that are standing in the way. (Hence the jihad against bitcoins. I visualize eventually being made to feel a guilty capitalist for profiting off my knowledge by buying something at a rummage sale and selling it for more on ebay. And gambling, gosh, that would disappear in Dan's world, where we are all happy dwarves... wink)


    Easy for Paul Ryan to say.  He has a job that pays big money (compared to what most of us make) and provides perks and health care, even though it's part-time and he's not required to perform to our standards.

    Many people find their jobs fulfilling.  There is dignity in work when you're at a job you've trained for, are good at, and it provides wages and benefits to your liking.  But if you're working at a minimum-wage-or-less shit job, getting nowhere, not even able to pay your bills, its more like a punishment for being poor than a shot at a career. 

    The argument about losing workers because Obamacare means they won't need a job in order to get the benefits might work if they could keep us from seeing what's happening in every other civilized country on the planet.  They all offer universal health care and the majority of their citizens still go to work every day.

    If workers can get a little relief while finding a way to get out from under the soul-crushing crap jobs, good for them.  We have to get over shaming people in order to get them to do the work nobody else wants to do. 

    We have no right to divide human beings into categories of worth depending on their usefulness to those who, when it comes down to it, would never have been able to climb that success ladder without them.

    When we gave our manual labor jobs over to technology and outsourcing we set the stage for a diminished and demoralized work force.  Everyone wants to feel they're a part of something.  For millions of workers that's been gone for a long time. 

    Do we now switch to a society where work is a sometime thing and only when you feel it?  That won't work, either.  But not having to work a job you hate simply because you need the benefits is pretty freeing.  It gives workers some control over their lives.  I can see why the Republicans would hate that.

     

     


    Interesting that this came up today.  My blog was on Crooks and Liars MBRU this morning alongside several others, including I Spy With My Little Eye.  The title of his post caught my attention:  The Moral Case for a Living Wage. 

    The post was actually the reposting of a comment from someone called JennofArk,  The whole thing was food for thought for me, but especially this:

    The moral formula is pretty simple: any day of work has got to provide compensation enough to support the individual who performed it (food, clothing, shelter) for a day. Otherwise you're expecting people to dig into the only capital they have - their life - and trade it away for nothing. It's immoral to ask someone to sacrifice their life - any portion of it - in the service of generating profit for someone else, without paying at least the amount that person needs for living during that period of employment.

     

    Don't know if this fits here but as soon as I read your piece, Michael, I thought of it.


    "Easy for Paul Ryan to say.  He has a job that pays big money (compared to what most of us make)..."

    I love this phrasing because this is what they've done to us.  Median income in the U.S. is around $50,000 a year.  A congressional salary is 2.5 times that with better benefits for health and retirement than you'd find elsewhere.  Yet we qualify it as high pay "compared to what most of us make."  This is how we've defined standards of wealth.  I buy into it, too.


    It is somewhat ironic that Mr. Douhat is extolling the link between health insurance and work, when it was Walter Reuther and the UAW that popularized that linkage during the imposition of wage freezes in World War II.   And of course it is particularly ironic given how the same unions that popularized work-related health care, including for their retirees, are pilloried for the legacy costs that are the product of rounds upon rounds of negotiations over decades, and which were agreed to in lieu of higher wages.  Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

    I'm not sure where I am on this and I've studied and worked on this kind of stuff all of my life.  Gosh I remember feeling like such an idiot as an 18 year-old student reading Marx and Hegel and Durkheim and Max Weber, and struggling with concepts like worker alienation and that thing called anomie.  

    I think I come out somewhere in the neighborhood where I've not met too many people who don't want to work to support themselves and their families.  I have, of course, met many folks with increasing frequency who would like to retire and pursue new things while they can still climb mountains or read books or paint.   And, on that note, have to look more at the Obamacare report, because I think that one of the points made by Democrats was that older workers might be incentivized to retire earlier, and possibly for the benefit of younger workers.  Have to read the report though.

    Nice work Michael.

    P.S. AA, Dan's approach, as you describe, seems rather academic and divorced from reality, no?  I mean with all that ink, does he discuss how we get there?  Kudos to him for thinking about this stuff though. 

     

     


    On the retirement issue... I of course think it's great that people who want to retire but would have stuck it out a few more years for the health insurance can now just retire. It's good for them and good for younger workers.  But this is the last of the pension retirees.  In the future, it's going to be a tougher proposition as people will only have savings to sell for annuities.  Health care is really only a deal maker for pensioners.


    Comment didn't take.  Point very well taken.. You cannot retire if you can't!


      Remember Phil Gramm saying there was "dignity in work at four dollars an hour"?

    We should have paid him that.


    And his wife... a board member at Enron...


    Serving on a board, now that's a job I can get real jealous about. cheeky I really don't envy CEO's with gazillions in salary and perks. I envy those couple of hours a month positions sitting in a conference room and having minimal accountability, and getting a nice payment for it.


    The job to get, if you can, would be board member for mutual funds with a big fund complex.  At Fidelity they have slates of boards that oversee hundreds of funds.  You meet 4 times a year and pretty rubber stamp everything while you collect a five figure fee per fund.  And, your job is to renew the contract with the management company since each fund is technically its own company.  Well, to vote in favor of not renewing the contract you'd have to basically say, "I, a representative of Fidelity's shareholders, who all bought a Fidelity fund, think that Fidelity should not manage this fund anymore."  Absent obvious fraud, it never comes up. Anyway, it's the job to get.  Wendy Gramm also did it for years!


    This is a complicated topic because of the many different ways to combine the psychology of the individual with different systems of value exchange.

    When Plato promulgated that the city-state was the ideal political unit, he did not mean it was more natural to man as man; The size of the unit was about a limit to how far each person could relate to others in a community before a binding sense of connection broke down. Figuring out the dimensions and necessity for that binding sense is still a work in progress. That is why models of individual psychology and theories of motivation in economics keep arcing toward each other in successive iterations.

    When I look at my own work experience in the trades, the matter of dignity is inextricably bound to separating how we workers organize ourselves in relation to the things we are making and the deals made that caused the effort to make that stuff came about. There is a meritocracy in the former that is not independent of the latter. We get the jobs we get. In terms of recognition amongst ourselves, however, the skills demonstrated are what commands respect. Especially when demonstrated in a fashion that helps other people do those things too.

     


    Thank you moat, always to be counted on to bring interesting big picture to the table.

    Of course, being in the business of studying value people assign to created personal property, I especially liked this one point of your bigger picture:

    the skills demonstrated are what commands respect.

    And monetary value, of course. There's carpentry and then there's Carpentry....

    I wonder sometimes how the fervent believers in communism would react when we really get down to nitty gritty: when they need a new chair, it's just the luck of the draw that they get the shitty ugly, unstable chair, while their neighbor gets a beautifully crafted form-follows-function chair at the same price.

    Or how about them government contractors that claim to be able to make Health Care Exchange websites?....lots of people got dignified well paid jobs on that contract, for a while at least...


    Or how about them government contractors that claim to be able to make Health Care Exchange websites?....lots of people got dignified well paid jobs on that contract, for a while at least...

    I'm now in my 29th minute navigating an incomprehensible "customer care" network simply trying to change my address for delivery of...The New York Times. With no end in sight. For the first 5 minutes, there was no hold music...nothing at all...to assure me that my call simply hadn't been disconnected.

    If anyone should have an elegant, easy to use site and system, it is The Paper of Record for the country, and they don't have the excuse of being a "government bureaucracy" and therefore being unable to change or move unless 59 senators agree or some pocket-lining bureaucrat gets off his duff or...or...or.

    "Government is the problem, not the solution" is a straw dog that won't hunt.

    It's bit like MW said a while back: We expect the private sector to ring us out like a wet dishrag. But when private insurance companies give us 1.5 choices and premiums, deductibles, and copays go up every year...we treat it like the weather. What are you going to do, but grumble?

    Who did the Times hire to do the work? What's their excuse for getting it wrong?

    But when the government attempts something we can all agree is difficult--far more difficult than getting a newspaper's customer care system right--and runs into difficulties....then we skip over the particulars of the situation to conclude there's something fundamentally wrong with government getting anything right.

    I recently had FIOS installed in my house. You can't believe how incompetent and uninformed everyone was. I needed a booster for the router. The woman in customer care sent me to the closest Verizon store to buy one. When I got there, they had no idea what I was talking about and wondered why Verizon kept sending people to that Verizon store. They gave me the address and number of the Verizon store, many miles away, that had the booster. The phone number they gave me was wrong. When I got home and got the right number, the young man said that, yes, they had the booster. Could they send it to me? No, I had to come in to the store (about a 30-minute drive) to buy it. I then asked him how much it was. He left to find out and when he came back to the phone, he told me they no longer carried the booster and, in fact, FIOS had stopped making them. (Thank god I'd asked for the price, right?) Oh, and this was after he had told me to go to Best Buy to get one--the same thing the installer had told me--which I had already done only to find out that BB had NO IDEA what I was talking about.

    All totaled up, I probably spent a day trying to make the service they ADVERTISE work in the way they ADVERTISE. Do I have a day to spend making Verizon's service work the way they tell me it's going to work? I do not. It cuts grievously into the time I waste on Dagblog smiley

    We could also discuss MS's seeming inability to reliably launch a new operating system without a million glitches and with a level of dysfunctionality that causes long-time users to want to stay with three systems ago.

    This is ALL the private sector. So I guess, bottom line, a lot of the new fanglery of modern life is complex and hard to understand and make work. And I don't see a lot of difference between the government and the private sector trying to get it right.


    Who is making and receiving the beautiful chair in a purely communist society is an open question. What is not given in its initial formulation is a method of exchange such as a market where one thing could be the same price of another.  Marx said that sort of method had to be worked out through the “transcendence of the proletariat.” So there is a lacuna in his expression: “From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.”

    While Lenin understood this gap from a philosophical point of view, he was more focused on his day job of seizing State power than wrestling with the problem. As a “temporary” measure, he invoked the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. The guy was pretty good at not letting ambiguity interfere with his agenda.

    In the spirit of lacunas, I made the general distinction between the nature of an individual and what binds a person to others. Attempts to separate the two elements go counter to their natural tendency to join together into a whole. In their separate test tubes, they are radical substances, eager to combine with other molecules. I am trying to think through Michael M’s challenge to find how much dignity depends on the act of work through this separation of elements because the idea of dignity itself involves a kind of exchange. Life provides many instances of inequality between self-worth and the respect given by others. It is a rare person who could abide in a place where they have no connection with each other at all.

    By not bridging the gap, Marx was keeping within the constraints that he said conditioned Bourgeois reality. With that in mind, a remark made by Michael W discussing the Miya Tokumitsu  article in Slate points to an inconsistency in Marx’s method:

    That's a wholenuthercanoworms. Putting aside the long-running socialism/marxism/communism debate, my point is just that Marx, like Steve Jobs, had an elitist view of labor--probably because he was a philosopher, not a diaper-cleaner.

    This is a good observation. For my purposes, it is not about Marx’s biases but an adherence to an absolute idea of privacy. It would be easy enough to argue how this adherence contradicts his militating for the abolition of private property. What interests me more is the implication that the idea could survive the end of private property. At the heart of his demand for radical change is the expectation that some things will just take care of themselves.

    The talk of letting matters work themselves out through a process without predetermining them reminds me of Hayek whose model of a “real” economy is one where all the participants are as free as possible to combine or separate their efforts and bring about a market whose prices reflect the actual value of things. While Marx and Hayek obviously have entirely opposing views about what supports the life of an individual, they share a confidence that a protean and spontaneous development to expand that horizon is possible if the boundary conditions they insist upon are created. In this way, they are like mirrors placed at opposite ends of a long hall.

    As a not particularly transcended proletariat walking down the hall, I am becoming leery of this boundary condition fixation. There is work to do.


    After reading my reply to your reply, I realized that I forgot to simply say that taste is the matter of the individual, no matter how many other individuals share in the flavor.

    One could accept that as an essential element of human nature without agreeing to much else.


    When Plato promulgated that the city-state was the ideal political unit, he did not mean it was more natural to man as man; The size of the unit was about a limit to how far each person could relate to others in a community before a binding sense of connection broke down. Figuring out the dimensions and necessity for that binding sense is still a work in progress.

    I wish I could call this up from memory in all its interesting nuances...

    There was a big political science debate at the time of the founding about the "correct" size of the basic political unit for a democracy to work. There had been a lot of discussion about this--perhaps going back to the Greeks--and the founders thought about it a lot. Montesquieu was quoted a lot.

    The reigning idea, as you note, was that the unit had to be small. I'm not sure the founders thought it had to be as small as a city; they were probably inclined to think in terms of the existing states.

    The problem was...there was a WHOLE lot of country to west of the existing states that needed to be addressed. People were moving out into those territories and their allegiance to the original states and the nascent country was not so tight. Also, other countries like Spain, France, GB and the Indian nations had their oars in the water. What to do? Slavery was only one of the issues at stake.

    I think it was Jefferson and Madison who had the idea--and this is where my memory gets a bit vague--that the COUNTRY could get bigger, even much bigger, and remain a democracy if it added the new territories as STATES. The states were smaller units (as you note), but also the states would check the power of the larger whole and of each other. They sort of squared the circle by creating a large democracy of much smaller units. Of course, we're still trying to square this circle, but it was a clever solution.

     


    The problem the Founders concerned themselves with is a continuing problem.

    All the markets are global by default now so going against the current means of exchange is a difficult idea. So difficult, in fact, that it requires some new thinking. The Founders sound a lot like each other (despite their many arguments with each other) when they talk about how the New Nation could play a part in global affairs. Things have changed.

    It is funny to think about how much of our enterprises within the nation involve the interstate commerce laws when we as a nation have so much power in other peoples' forms of exchange without such a focus upon procedure.

    It would be interesting to start from scratch. Decide the limits of intervening in processes and keep to that decision in the name of progress.

    I am not saying the idea is immediately applicable or even the best thing. But it does measure the scope of the American project; Going out there with the expectation that making other situations like our situation is something we could choose to stop doing. But we don't.

    Before talking about what should be done, it is too much to ask that we all understand what we all have been asking for so far?

    We are this big thing that denies the bigness in one area and asserts it in another. The huckster element in the language pisses a lot of people off.

    I am in the car but not at the wheel.

     


    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/paul-ryan-gop-job-losses

    Not that I ever want to defend Paul Ryan, but I did find this article interesting. In fact, it supports what you say about him, but it also shows that he wasn't a reliable voice for the craziest GOP views on the CBO finding.

    To him, people voluntarily leaving the work force and using a government program for help is worse than mass involuntary lay-offs.

    I don't read where he says this, but I trust you. But there is another angle on this: Why should I work harder to pay for benefits that allow you to work less hard? Voluntarily. Personally, I don't add things up this way, but it's easy to see why many people do.

    There are people out there who would look at somebody who toils at a job they hate just to maintain access to medical treatment for a chronic illness and say, "Good, the system works."

    In my experience, these people don't say this this way exactly. They say things like, "No one likes his job. That's life. Grow up." Or as one wag put it, "The support group for people who hate their jobs meets every day at 5. In the bar."

    In fact, this idea that people hating their jobs is a social ill to be solved strikes at the attitudinal heart of why many conservatives think liberals are immature pups who know nothing about the world and can't be trusted to run it.

    The idea that we--or above all, the government--is going to solve this problem isn't just misguided or unAmerican, in their view, it's just hopelessly naive. Thinking you can solve this problem impeaches you in their eyes as a serious person with his head on straight and some basic adult knowledge of the world.

    In short, they offer to pay your bar tab because you're obviously a pathetic creature and then they laugh you out the door, metaphorically of course.

    Edit to add: Michael, in re-reading this, it seems like my words could be construed as being harsh toward you. I didn't mean that in any way.


    I didn't take this as too harsh.  I mean, you're right that there is absolutely not serious discussion about solving the problem of people performing labor that they do not want to perform.  The same people will also tell you that we can't have a serious discussion about inequality.  They like to say things like this a lot... We cannot even have this discussion because they are unsolvable problems in life.  But who is served by such an attitude?


    The way Douthat presents the matter of incentive is lop sided. He says: "If you weaken the link between insurance and employment, workers will have one less reason to stay at a job they dislike." What he does not explore is what weakening that link will change on the employer side.

    Leaving the issue of motivation to the side, the change is about leverage at the bargaining table. When employers lose exclusive control over a resource, they will be forced to negotiate with their employees on a more even plane. It is surprising that a Libertarian wouldn't laud the change as a triumph of privatization.


    It is unbelievable that Douthat can even write that with a straight face, as if the entire edifice of our economy were based on nothing more than employees having no choice but to stay at jobs they dislike. Maybe he's right!

    Stunning in its honesty. If we could subtitle every GOP candidate with this one sentence, they would go the way of the dodo bird or be forced to reform.

    "This guy wants you to stay at a job you dislike." Ha!

    Of course, "like and dislike" need unpacking. Do you dislike your job because of what it's involved? Do you dislike your boss? The conditions? The benefits? Hard to really comment on this without knowing these things, but still...

    I once got into a conversation with a friend who had worked construction in FL. He was laid off after the crash, but had put enough money into dividend-paying stocks that he was able to live a modest, but satisfying existence. He had built his own house and didn't have kids to support in various ways, so those were not issues.

    I said something like, "The key is for people to find work they love or like." His response was, "But then, the roads would never get paved." We didn't go into it further, but I assumed he meant that NO ONE could ever LIKE work like that. Maybe the implication was that you'd have to pay them a lot to do it, and then they'd AGREE to do it, but still wouldn't LIKE it.

    I've never worked on a road crew, so I can't speak from personal experience, but those conditions have always struck me as brutal. Hard to like. Working in hot weather with pollution-spewing traffic presenting all kinds of dangers. I know some people who might want to work the machine that scrapes off the top layer of asphalt and MANY people who would love to work a steamroller. But....


    "I said something like, "The key is for people to find work they love or like." His response was, "But then, the roads would never get paved." We didn't go into it further, but I assumed he meant that NO ONE could ever LIKE work like that."

    And what about working in abattoirs? Waste management? Or even as nursing assistants or morticians? Harvesting fields of vegetables?

    These are necessary jobs to maintain 'our way of life'; the ones that always come to mind whenever I hear 'share the work' or 'follow your bliss'.

    I wonder under what conditions would I be willing to take my turn at them in exchange for how much bliss.

     

     


    Yes, all those things.


    I would venture that nobody ever "likes" their jobs all of the time.  I grew up in Detroit around factory workers who, if you asked them if they "liked" their jobs, would give you instances where they didn't, but wouldn't be able to fathom the question beyond that.

    They were all union members, which means they were working to save their jobs and make them better. They weren't looking to get out of the factories.  When their sons wanted to find jobs at the plant, they couldn't have been prouder.

    Some of them loved their work and others couldn't wait to get off the assembly line to do something else.  One guy I knew wrote poetry in his head in order to get away from the grinding sameness of the assembly line, but it would never have occurred to him to look for another line of work.

    We lived in blue collar communities in Detroit and in the suburbs and I know firsthand that these workers took a whole lot of pride in what they did.  They wore UAW/Ford jackets and caps (as an example) and the epitome of blue-collar success was a job at one of the Big Three (Ford/GM/Chrysler).

    They made good money, they had good benefits, and they had assurances of a good retirement.  It wasn't a question of whether they "liked" their jobs or found them fulfilling.  It was mainly about security.  They could afford a nice house, a couple of cars, and maybe even a cottage up north.  They could put their kids through college if college was what the kids wanted to do. 

    Their pride came not so much in what they did at work but in what that job could bring to their lives outside the plant.  There aren't many places where blue collars can have that anymore.  What a pity.

    (By the way, both my son and my grandson worked on roofing crews when they were in college.  I can't say for sure that that's what spurred them to keep to their lessons, but they'll both still say it was the one job they actually hated.  Still, there are many men who have made roofing a career and seem to actually enjoy it.)

     


    Also, they came through the Depression, which changed their view on things, I'm sure. Security overrode many, many other things.

    It sounds basic, even simplistic, but when you've experienced the bottom falling out, then most things look up from there, and you prize that regular paycheck over many other things.

    Put another way, you can't get too fussed about this or that problem with your job because having a job is more important than all those drawbacks.

    You may grumble. You may even hate your boss. But nothing beats the paycheck.

    Just in case Quinn is listening in, I have no proof this is true--but this is my experience with people of this generation.

    My aunt Helen used to say: "Dahling, I came from Hungary. Won't I don't know it don't pay to know." Needless to say, she didn't know much about the English language, but she'd had profound experience of life and believed she knew what life was about-- how it worked and what one had to do to survive at it--infallibly.


    It seems to me, though I haven't worked it all the way through, that the reason people pay you to do a job is because it's distasteful.  If you liked what you were doing, you would pay them in order to do it.  Isn't that what distinguishes a job from a hobby?

    I know there are some people who like their jobs, but I don't think there are many.  That's why they tend to say things like:  "I can't believe I'm getting paid to do this!"

    I can see a flaw in my argument:  if true, then the more unpleasant the job, the higher the pay should be.  And it's not like that in real life.  I doubt if being a Director on a board is so much more distasteful than working on a road crew.


    You raise good points, especially the flaw in your argument. wink

    It seems to me that as a rule (with exceptions, of course), the relationship is exactly backwards: the more one is paid, the less distasteful the job is. In fact, many very high paying jobs are jobs I think I would find quite enjoyable. I know I enjoy my job most of the time and it pays quite a bit better than most jobs (if not all jobs) I know I would hate. Paid to play professional sports? Paid to sing? Of course, what those jobs (and mine) have in common is that they require a very specialized skill set. (Although, the skills might not always be what one thinks.) One could say that our economic structure is set up to encourage people to develop those required skills, but part of the problem is that very few people probably could develop those skills no matter how hard they try. I.e., it's a combination of training/study and innate ability. Our economic structure encourages the first of these, but at the expense of unfairly penalizing those born without highly sought out innate abilities.


    Here's my taxonomy on making money.

    People will pay you:

    • To do things they want or need done.

    • To get something from you they regard as valuable.

    • To make money for them.


    The bug (some might say feature) in our system is that there are more people able to do jobs of any kind than there are jobs of any kind to offer, which in general drives down wages, but if we hone in on labor skill sets we find that the least desirable jobs often require the least skills and hence have the largest available labor pool from which to draw, which makes the wages for those least desirable jobs also least desirable. So not only do these people hate their jobs, but they also get paid bupkis for them.


    I've been turning this over and over in my mind since MM posted it, and I find it devilishly slippery.

    For example, and we'd have to find this out, the labor pool for the "least desirable" (or lowest-paying) jobs probably is the greatest, at least in theory, until you drop out all the folks who won't be hired because they're overqualified. Many people could do the job, but how many would be hired to do the job?

    Then there are other aspects. Take a middle-ish to low job on the totem pole like being a teller. Theoretically, you could imagine a lot of people being able to do this job, but many "qualified" people would fail at being tellers because they don't have the mindset for doing that sort of detailed, but highly repetitive task.

    So, at one point, my wife was a teller. Part of her training was to put the pink slip here, the blue slip there, the yellow slip somewhere, and so on. Tasks that had clear rules, but whose rules were arbitrary. So they could just as easily have used a pink slip where they used a blue slip. She found it impossible to remember these rules. They didn't sink in. It wasn't until the reason for each rule was explained to her that she was able to grasp the whole and retain it.

    She became a decent teller, but basically you don't want someone like her becoming a teller. She's ill-suited, though highly capable. She owned her own consulting firm and was at the top of her profession (at a different point in time), so she had the, what? the smarts for it--she just wasn't suited for it.

    And note: she wasn't a "better" teller because she had a "higher level" grasp of the why behind the slips. In fact, I suspect, that folks who could simply get the rules and follow them were probably better than she was.

    And this isn't just a matter of "over-qualified" people being bored with "lower level" work. It's a matter of how well you're suited to do certain kinds of tasks. It's how your mind works, and what gives you satisfaction.

    And there may not be that many of these people in the population--natural-born tellers. There might be more natural-born people suited to certain "higher level" jobs. Like accountancy.

    I, and many people, tend to put jobs into a hierarchy with the lowest level jobs requiring the fewest or easiest skills, and the highest level requiring the opposite. And naturally, we assume there are more people in the world capable of being, say, tellers, than accountants--but is this true, I wonder. This sort of classification may work to some degree, but it leaves out a lot of things like what I mention above.

    If you take someone who is well-suited to a "low level" job--say, flipping burgers at McD--I'm not sure they necessarily hate it. They may not like the wages or hours, but that's different from saying they hate flipping burgers.

    Just musing around here...


    I'm definitely over-simplifying it, but if the invisible hand is an indication than the lowest-paying jobs are the lowest-paying jobs in large part because the supply exceeds the demand.

    P.S. Just in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't defining least desirable in terms of income, but in terms of monotony or worse (e.g., shoveling manure). My point was that these jobs are also least desirable in terms of pay.


    Maybe, but isn't it also the case that there is simply a limit on what someone will pay me to do X? A limit that has little to do with how many other people can do it?


    If we, as a society, are going to change how the necessity of working very hard is collectively perceived as proof that one is worthy of being considered a member of it, the emphasis on production as a unit of time spent on a task will have to change. I won't hold my breath.

    In regards to the distinction I made upthread about the needs of the individual vs. every kind of exchange, accepting the idea that being engaged with the work one does is essential to living a good life does not by itself obligate a person to any deal. Homo Faber is the species that truly happens at the place of the individual. That doesn't make the individual self sufficient.

    I don't think the people I know (including myself) are very happy unless they are overwhelmed by all the things they have to do. But the balancing act is a matter of personal conscience. Whether you work at a job that requires everything you have to offer or at a job you could do while barely conscious, the element of engagement is a personal matter. I like that part of capitalism. You make your deal.

    But the question of the dignity of labor is also about divisions of labor.

    It used to be that the hard parts of a lot of jobs was just what one had to develop as an initial condition. If you want to cut stone, you have to be able to move the stuff yourself. There is this conditioning involved that used to be necessarily connected to learning a skill set that now can be developed by other means. The element of how means of productions materially produce conditions is what I find most interesting in Marxian analysis. The rest is weak beer. The best part of his thought is looking into  how the compartmentalization of particular tasks stood in relation to previous communities that made stuff by other means.

    When talking about manual labor of the most demanding kind, I have done it. I didn't do it for pay to the extent that it killed me. It doesn't get much credit as a skill set on the market but the thing that allows one to do it is a process of becoming inured to the work. We get used to the things we do and this element is true of all work.

    I can move bags of cements all day but wouldn't survive an afternoon greeting people at Wal Mart.


    I am a fan of Michael Maiello . they way he speaks is very good. He speaks like a real journalist. Work is not really essential to dignity.

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    is true that you speaks very good


    You are a Lulu-robotron selling hair products and sporting devices. Your presence will be confined & quarantined directly. Do not try to escape - we have your cookies, you have been identified.


    I especially like how the praise in the first three sentences is basically contradicted by the fourth and last sentence. (Luckily, Maiello is a "real" writer without dignity, confusing the whole thing further? wink)


    Kafkabot!


    Dorothy is my SISTER, Michael.  She has to make a living too, you know...


    Hah! As undignified as ever, I am glad to see!


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