The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age
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    The Allusive Common Ground

    By Elusive Trope on Sat, 01/14/2012 - 7:34pm |

    Continuing on from my previous blog Time to Retreat, I have further refined the group of 25 individuals who would participate in the five-day national community visioning process.  As I stated, the characteristics of the people is based on Gallup polls and the US Census data.  I have now added religious identity.  I have also attempted to match up the religious identity with the distribution of age, race, regional location, ideological identity and party affiliation as detailed in the previous blog. 

    Looking at the make-up of the diverse group, the challenge to the facilitator is obvious:  how to design the process to not only increase the likelihood common ground can be discovered, but also to develop a vision that will provide guidance to real change.

    Since the group's characteristics reflect those in the country at large, there are various demographic groups that will be able to dominant the decision-making process.  Hence the challenge to the facilitator.  For instance, whites make up three quarters of the U.S. population, so they make up three quarters of the group.  There is no representative from the Native American community.  The liberals are at a distinct disadvantage.

    As Aunt Sam correctly pointed out in the previous blog, this is not fair.  But the point of the exercise is to find a vision for America that will get the buy-in from this slice of America, but also will be aligned with what could be considered liberal values or principles.  If it is doable with the group, it reasons that it is doable out there in the "real" world. 

    I have categorized the groups by the self-identified ideological leaning.  As I noted before since, the labels are self-identified, a conservative could very well have some liberal beliefs and values and the liberal could have some conservative beliefs and values.  The moderates could be all over the board, or actually conservative or liberal.  For the age, I just made everyone the mid-way through their age bracket.

    Also, I did not detail which ones were above the median income of 49K and which ones were below.  Nor did I say which two would be from rural areas (less than 10K population) or which three were from micropolitan areas (10K to 50K population).  So if you are like me, then you can have some fun thinking which ones, given the information provided, would belong to these categories.

    The Very Conservative Three

    55 year-old, White, Southern, Southern Baptist, Republican

    45 year-old, White, Midwestern, Pentecostal, Republican       

    25 year-old, White, Western, Catholic, Independent                                         

     

    The Conservative Seven

    35 year-old, African American, Southern, Baptist, Independent

    45 year-old, Hispanic, Southern, Methodist, Democrat

    35 year-old, White, Northeastern, Nondenominational Protestant, Independent          

    75 year-old, Asian, Northeastern, Non-Specific Christian, Republican

    25 year-old, White, Southern, Non-Specific Christian, Republican

    55 year-old, White, Midwestern, Catholic, Democrat

    65 year-old, White, Western, Mormon, Republican

     

    The Moderate Ten

    45 year-old, White, Southern, Baptist, Democrat                         

    65 year-old, White, Western, Episcopal, Independent

    55 year-old, White, Midwest, Lutheran, Independent

    65 year-old, African-American, Midwest, Protestant, Democrat

    85 year-old, White, Northeast, Catholic, Republican

    35 year-old, White, Southern, Catholic, Republican

    45 year-old, Hispanic, Western, Catholic, Democrat

    25 year-old, Lebanese, Northeastern, Sunni Independent

    75 year-old, White, Northeast, Non-Religious, Independent

    25 year-old, White, Western, Non-Religious, Independent

     

    The Liberal Three

    25 year-old, White, Western, Presbyterian, Independent

    45 year-old, African American, Southern, Non-Specific Christian, Democrat                   

    55 year-old, White, Southern, Non-Religious, Democrat

     

    The Very Liberal Two

    35 year-old, White, Northeastern, Catholic, Independent            

    55 year-old, White, Southern, Jewish, Democrat                       

     

    Looking at this group, it isn't hard to understand why we are having such a difficult time in this country at making much progress (from a liberal point of view).

    Next up will be to develop the outline of the agenda, ground rules, approach and objectives for five-day session.  And I am not particularly looking forward to figuring out to keep the Southern Baptist Republican from completely derailing the process.

    Comments

    Is this gonna be one of those clothing optional retreats ?  cause otherwise count me out.


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 4:51am

    that decision hasn't been made. still deciding whether it would be a wise decision to include a peyote ritual to help move the visioning process along. surprise


    by Elusive Trope on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 9:15am

    As with Sara Lee, 


    "nobody don't like buttons..."


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 6:05pm

    Can you direct me to a resource (utilizing factual data) that delivers the breakdown for religious affiliations in the US? i.e. protestants, catholics, Jewish, agnostic, et al.?

    Thanks.

     


    by Aunt Sam on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 12:44pm

    The link above in the blog goes to this site

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/1690/religion.aspx

    and was used to develop the numbers.  They have been doing the poll since 1948.

    The 2011 results

    Protestant: 42%.  The breakout of this group is provided further down the web page - the interesting thing is Baptists are clearly the largest group, splitting after a ideological battle in the 80's however between the Southern Baptist (i.e. conservatives) and the other Baptists (moderates and liberals).  African American Baptist it seems on other research have split in a number of case over the decades to form their own churches.  Whether there is a clear division between the conservatives, moderates, and liberal I don't know.  There dominance is why there are three Baptist in the group, as opposed to many others being represented with just one. 

    Christian (non-specific) 10%

    Catholic: 23% - hence the 6 Catholics.

    Jewish: 2%

    Mormon: 2%

    Other Specific: 5%

    None: 13%

    I would add that this does not include data about how devout the individual is.  A person for example may be Catholic, but attend a couple times a year and not really follow any of the teachings of the Church except by accident. 

    55% do say that religion is very important in their lives, so one would expect a little over half being devout - whether that is actually so, would like to believe so (or feel they need to say this to a pollster). 


    by Elusive Trope on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 1:15pm

    A person for example may be Catholic, but attend a couple times a year and not really follow any of the teachings of the Church except by accident.

    I hereby render unto Trope the Dayly Line of the Day Award for this here Dagblog Site, given to all of him from all of me!


    by Richard Day on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 3:21pm

    Why thank you, sir.

    Of course, such a person should not be confused with those who claim to be "recovering Catholics."


    by Elusive Trope on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 3:32pm

    except by accident. 

    Without trespassing into the realm of too much information, does it qualify if the rubber always breaks?


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 6:12pm

    I suppose that would be one example


    by Elusive Trope on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 6:15pm

    Praise Jesus!


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 6:29pm

    I apologize to the rest of dagblog for this, but…

    was that your cum to Jesus moment?


    by Verified Atheist on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 6:48pm

    Moderator, can we have a moderator here, we have a  TOS bad pun violation.....


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 7:06pm

    All responsible have been sac'd.


    by Donal on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 7:09pm

    Evidently leaving the asylum under full inmate control...carry on.


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 7:15pm

    This just in...those responsible for the sacking have been sacked.


    by Elusive Trope on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 7:35pm

    Thanks.

    In the spirit of my continued interest in your quest to develop the best format for this project and the ongoing discussion, I have the following questions:

    1.  Why is it necessary to attempt to closely adhere to the current populace's 'groupings' as to ethnicity/race and religion affiliation?  

          If, as I understand your stated goal is for the assembly to represent the stated citizenry, it seems to me that this still leaves too many unrepresented and needs unmet.

    2.   Have you considered other types of regional groupings that would come together (i.e. by religious affiliations, income, race, rural, metropolitan, political ideology, etc.) and then having each group choose the needed number of representatives to come together with like groups from the other regions noted to meet with the other region's representatives that would create the consensus group?

     


    by Aunt Sam on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 7:53pm

    In answer to question 1: The reason I believe that many issue don't get any traction is simply that the majority don't buy-in to the solution. 

    Gay marriage has struggled to gain acceptance because the majority of the people identify themselves as heterosexual.  At best, 4% of Americans identify themselves as lesbian, gay or bisexual.

    0.3% identify themselves as transgender, so we can pretty much guess how well it has gone getting acceptance of issues related to this group.  And the last time I saw, they were the group most likely to experience violence as a result of some identity characteristic. 

    Even if we were to say that LGBT community accounts for 10% of the population, unless there is large swath of the heterosexual community have to support the LGBT community in achieving success on their issues. 

    In developing a vision statement that would include LGBT rights and has a greater likelihood of being successful if it framed and worded in a way in which a large portion of heterosexual community will agree to.  It isn't just about being right, it is about facilitating the awareness of others about what is right, rather than coercing them or forcing them to go along with the agenda.

    There are times in a country's history where it is appropriate to push an agenda forward even if the majority is against it, whether it forcing school segregation or closing Gitmo. But this exercise isn't about those times when our community leaders and political leaders should stand up and do the right thing, not the popular thing.

    Sometime it is not about numerical superiority, but the institutionalized power and oppression present in organizations and the culture at large, with the patriarchy only shows can show.  But this is perpetuated as much by those being oppressed as it is by the oppressors in many cases.

    The women's movement was possible, for example, only after many woman were made "aware" they were being oppressed.  In 1955, one would find a majority of Americans accepting, men and women, the patriarchy imperative.  In this exercise, the point would be reflect that in the group.  As it was it took many decades of struggle to break through. 

    This exercise seeks to look for the answer to the question - was there a way in which the movement could have been shortened and more effective in effecting change?


    by Elusive Trope on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 8:27pm

    Regarding question 2: there are endless number of permutations possible when one looks at the various groups that can be defined within the country.  I suppose if I do continue with this exercise I will add others.  But if one is going to be selective in some fashion, as opposed to having decided by who just shows up for the most part, as many community visioning process do (thus under-representing many groups, except for those who show up to represent those groups, i.e. mental health case workers who seek to give the chronically mentally ill a voice), then some guidelines have to be set up to determine the distribution. 

    I have chosen the one I have chosen for the reasons given in the other comment.  Your method is another way of doing it - the result would be different.  Neither would be necessarily better than the other, just different, each with its own values and flaw to the goal of finding a better way forward.


    by Elusive Trope on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 8:39pm

    Not to be a stickler but this seems to be a improper use of 'allusive', which is derived from 'allusion' - a passing or casual reference; an incidental mention of something, either directly or by implication: an allusion to Shakespeare.
     
    Elusive, Oxford Dictionary : elusive
    · adj. difficult to find, catch, or achieve.
    – DERIVATIVES elusively adv. elusiveness n.
    – ORIGIN C18: from L. elus-, eludere ‘elude’ + -ive.

    by NCD on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 7:40pm

    Okay good catch - but it is a result of my photogenic memory. cheeky

    But if put on the stand, I will claim poetic license.  For you see, in all the talk about populist movements, bringing together the working classes, or the 99%, or patriotic Americans, there is allusions to the common ground.


    by Elusive Trope on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 8:01pm

    Let's face it, allusions to common ground are all too elusive these days!


    by NCD on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 8:11pm

    Indeed!


    by Elusive Trope on Sun, 01/15/2012 - 8:28pm