Fresh Eyes

    Former Republican stillidealistic wrote, in Genghis's To Vote or Not to Vote thread:

    I am not thrilled with the dems. This party is more dysfunctional than I ever would have imagined. Someone commented that keeping the dems in line is like herding cats, and then there's the old "I'm not a member of an organized political party, I'm a democrat." Both statements are sadly true.

    The Republicans as a political party operate in a far more authoritarian manner (some might use the phrase "less anarchic") than the Democrats do, and they are far more authoritarian in outlook than Democrats.  (see Authoritarianism and Polarization in American Politics, Marc Hetherington's provocative and excellent book, for more on this.) They have a lot of problems right now of their own.  But they self-organize better than we do.  We have a hard time organizing at all.  Sometimes I think we are philosophically offended by the idea of working with a plan.  We think it insults our intelligence to accept a part for ourselves to help implement a plan if there are parts of it--and there almost always are, especially if it's not our own plan--that we disagree with.

    I took it these may have been some of the things Bill Clinton meant, more or less, when he said that Republicans look to fall in line behind their candidates, whereas Democrats want to fall in love with their candidates.  That's as close as a politician like Bill Clinton will ever come to gently chiding some of his party's supporters.

    Bill Bradley once said in an interview that politics attracts a lot of people who are talkers rather than doers.  I don't accept the dichotomy as being as stark as his comment suggests.  Sometimes talking is also doing.  But I know what he is saying.  What the candidate who is out there busting her ass trying to get elected finds unhelpful is campaign workers debating the merits of some policy issue or campaign decision.  Their thought is, roughly, "look, if you want to run for office, run for office and then you can do whatever you want.  But right now, that's not helping me.  And I need your help!"  "Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians" is a saying that reflects a similar sentiment.  (I'm not sure if that is considered offensive these days to some native Americans.  If so, I apologize.  I meant to use it as an illustration.)

    That part of the Democratic party's base of support which includes opinionated people with a lot of formal education who are confident in their intellects, me included, are going to carp and criticize our candidates from now until the cows come home.  We've absorbed the idea of questioning and critiquing authority.  We pride ourselves on not being a bunch of mindless automatons like the Republicans, who we see as unquestioningly taking orders as well as received opinions from their leaders.  We are hyper-egalitarian.  Or maybe just hyper-skeptical. Or maybe we just have a big problem with authority in general, of any sort.  Authority is so unfair (not always)!  It's so...hierarchical (true)! 

    We may think all of this is on balance a good thing.  Because to discuss and teach and sometimes quarrel amongst ourselves is, after all, a big part of what democracy and being an engaged citizen is supposed to be about, isn't it?  

    Well, yes it is. 

    That doesn't mean this tendency is necessarily or always helpful to actually bringing about progressive change.  Some--no doubt including some of us in work or other contexts--describe the phenomena I'm writing about as "navel gazing", or "talking things to death".  I think that is overly harsh as a broadbrush indictment.  But I get what they're saying.  I've certainly participated in plenty of discussions, both in and outside of politics, that don't feel like a worthwhile or productive use of my or anyone else's time.  Is there anyone here who hasn't?

    Republicans as a party do actually make decisions and stick with them, implement them over the long haul.  Democrats as a party have a very hard time doing that in my experience.  We are much more disposed to re-examine the earlier kind of, sort of decision, to question whether really it is the best course of action in light of new information or insights, or whatever.  And sometimes the earlier sort of decision really was ill-advised and should be ditched if it can't be salvaged.  I know these are generalizations, which means there are exceptions to them.  But they are consistent with my experiences in politics.        

    I think Democrats usually govern better in part because our dominant response to dissent is to listen to and evaluate it, and possibly in some contexts even see it as valuable, a way to learn relevant things and arrive at a better decision.  That same tendency probably makes us less effective in winning elections.  We often don't agree and stick to, or even formulate, a clear message or strategy.  If there is a national message the Democrats are trying to put out there at the moment other than "they're worse than we are!" I've missed it.  Is the thinking that that is supposed to be enough to carry the day?  The best we can do right now?  The lowest common denominator?  All of the above?

    Republicans in my experience are far less inclined to accept, let alone seek out, a wider range of views and see that as possibly beneficial.  They are much more authoritarian.  We won the damned election, now we're going to do what we want to.  The folks who don't agree with us can go off in their corner and talk amongst themselves all they want.  We create reality; they analyze it to death (remember the Bush WH staff person comment reported by Ron Suskind not so long ago?).  We're moving on and we're not wasting time with endless discussion and debate.  That's what Democrats do. 

    If I were going to fully walk my talk on what I've said above, I suppose I would take this opportunity to cease and desist from discussions on matters of the sort I am raising until after the election.  I am almost certain I will not do that.  I plead guilty.  I might as well, since I don't have a leg to stand on here. 

    In conclusion, please do not comment in this thread.  Unless, of course, you find that you can't seem to help yourself.  Wink  Any self-parody in this post is entirely intentional.  

    Comments

    "We won the damned election, now we're going to do what we want to."

    Sorry, can't help myself.  But seriously, the most amazing thing about George W. Bush is how he treated his victories as mandates even in the face of contrary evidence.  I remember that when the Supreme Court was making Bush president there was all sorts of talk about how he should have a bipartisan cabinet or otherwise make some gesture of concession to the majority of Americans who didn't vote for him.

    Nope, didn't happen.  George won.  Didn't matter how he got the keys to the house, he had the keys and decided to use them his way.  Then in 2004 he won them again, just barely.  If the election had been held six months later, he'd have lost.  The country turned on him in his second term.  He was historically unpopular.  And yet he didn't concede a thing.

    Democrats are different.  Heck, we still haver a Republican running the Pentagon.  Could you imagine Bush leaving a Democrat in charge of anything for any length of time at all?  Part of it is, as you say, that we're just a more open-minded bunch.  The party is supposed to be based on open-mindedness, after all.

    But the other part of it is this -- mainstream Democrats believe in a lot of the same things as corporate Republicans.  I'm sorry, it's true.  And it makes it tough for us to have a coherent message sometimes.


    Well, I obviously can't help myself, either.  Smile 

    I appreciate your comment.  I'm trying to follow the implications of that.  So, if this President and Congress wanted to run on say, (not communicated publicly in these words, just elaborating a teeny bit on the concept):

    *a green infrastructure public jobs program to put people back to work and help get our economy to a better place

    *common sense accountability and regulation of Wall Street that plausibly addresses the problems leading to the most recent meltdown

    *allowing the tax cuts for the rich to expire in order to help reduce the deficit without costing jobs

    Do you think that is not a doable sale with the voters?  That too many mainstream Democrats disagree on those issues?  I'm going on the basis of opinion polls I see that say strong majorities appear to favor each of these.  Also, when I talk to ordinary people I feel as though I can get somewhere with those kinds of proposals.  Or at least I imagine I might be able to, which is the necessary first step to get any ordinary citizen type out there to make the candidate's case with voters.  

    You're saying maybe in polls, but not really, when you come down to it and people have to do anything specific? 

    I don't know.  Maybe it's not a partial platform that can form a foundation for a winning message. 

    All I know is I'd sure as hell want to be able to say "this is what we're for and this is what we mean to do if you vote to keep us in" to people I'm trying to convince to vote for the Dems, as opposed to "the other guys suck even more".  

    I think if this White House disagrees or does not see it that way, that is a serious disconnect with the party's progressive base which desperately needs to be addressed before it does even more damage. 


    If Obama was expressing his genuine opinions in the NYT interview Stardust brought to our attention the other day, then, as a lifelong Dem, I feel chilled to the bone. Because in that interview, it certainly sounded as if he were making a public announcement of his intention to move his policies even further Right, after the mid-terms -- whether or not the Dems maintain or lose their majority. That shocked me.

    If it is obvious that the President wants his Congressmen and Senators to allow tax cuts for the uber wealthy to stand, and instructs his own DOJ to work on a repeal of the recent judicial ruling on DADT and then pro-actively goes after SS and Medicare cuts .... then, I ask you, how is his not a GOP agenda?

    And if, for the sake of discussion, that conclusion is correct, and it is one well understood by our Democratic Congressmen and Senators, then who among them is going to stand up to his President, the ostensible leader of the party? 

    Maybe we should hope the Republicans do win this round on the theory that there will be some political mileage to be gained by fighting a "GOP" agenda -- never mind that it is also the Dem's own.

    As a sidenote: if you were a South Carolina Democrat, whom would you vote for in state and local elections? 

     


    Thanks, Wendy.  Would you agree or disagree that the Republicans would push much harder, farther and faster a Republican agenda than a Democratic Congress would if the Dems hold?  (I believe that is true and very hard to dispute.)

    They smell blood in the water.  They know that the President's own base is badly demoralized and shaken.  They read the President's NY Times interview the way you did, as presenting a major opportunity to push him very, very hard, I'm sure.  They know what has not happened to them as a result of their obstructionism so far.  This President occasionally will call them out.  But no action seems to follow from that.  He gives ground.  Lots of it, including lots before the opening kickoff.  They do not fear him even a little bit.  They know it and they'll push him to the wall every time unless and until this President draws a line and outmaneuvers them, as Clinton did on the government shutdown.  And at that point, seeing the clock will run out before they can destroy him at the ballot box, they'll concoct some way to impeach him.    

    We might have to count, in the end, on the willingness of Dems in the Senate to block (if they keep the majority) or filibuster the worst stuff, and stick to their guns.  Is there anyone, witnessing the Democrats' use (non-use) of the filibuster and threatened filibuster when they have been in the minority in recent years who wants to bet in favor of that happening?  Which Senator do you see as maybe, possibly willing to do that?  I could maybe see Feingold doing that.  If he survives.  Maybe a few others.  Sanders.  Franken.  Boxer if she survives.  Sherrod Brown maybe.  These are people whose courage and tenacity I respect and treasure. 

    You ask if maybe there would be some political mileage to be had by fighting the GOP agenda.  But, as you note, the overwhelming tendency of this White House is to accommodate and negotiate with, rather than publicly stand up to and confidently crush (makes you laugh, right?), Republican hardball tactics.  So why would the expected result of a Republican Congress be anything other than a full-scale retreat?  

    If Dems stay in power, at least they won't have the easy out of saying, "well look, the Republicans proposed it, and the voters turned the Congress over to the Republicans with a mandate to do x and y and z, so we have to deal with them." 

    No, if the Dems retain power, they would actually have to propose the destruction of Social Security themselves, if that is what they mean to do.  I doubt very much that most Democrats have any interest in going back to the voters 2 years from now having done that.     

    So I am with Ramona, among others, on this.  It matters a very great deal.

    I couldn't give an opinion worth anything on South Carolina voting choices.  I'm not up to speed on the situation there.  


    Destor:

    I think the  Bush example works both ways.  I think you properly describe what Bush did he was first sworn in back in January of 2001.  After that, and given 9/11, I don't think you have an apples to apples comparison between then and now..

    But then I do think Bush tried and failed to act unilaterally beginning after the 2004 election. He came out of the box and said in his first press conference something like, "I have political capital and now I'm going to spend it."  And he tried to spend it on changing social security and he got burned, and thereafter in larger measure because of circumstances (the war, Katrina, etc.) he wasn't able to do what he did in the first term.

    I do agree that Democrats, and certainly the president, are different than Bush   Indeed, the whole premise of Obama's 2008 campaign was that he was genuinely, to borrow a phrase Bush once used, a uniter and not a divider.  In Obama's  case, I think he really would rather be just that. And certainly my guess is that many independents and new voters who supported Obama wouldn't have had it any other way.

    Bruce


    Good to see you, Bruce, as always.  Hope you are well these days.

    I'd like to pose the same question to you that I posed to destor in this thread.  The 3 "planks" I made up quickly upthread--are these salable propositions, ones a majority of Americans might support?  Or are they far left, loony liberal stuff in the present context that no political party that wishes to govern could hope to run on successfully?  

    By that, I mean possible to win elections on issues such as those in places where Blue Dog Dems and their supporters say only Blue Dog Dem views can get Blue Dog Dems elected.  Because that's what we're talking about when you get right down to it, if we're going to get progressive things done in this country any time soon.  In more ordinary times, say 10 or 20 years ago, I would agree that these would be tougher, and maybe impossible, sells.  But the issues and the context were different then.   

    Wendy and any others who'd like to do so, of course I am interested in your take on that as well, if you'd like to weigh in.     


    AD:

    Nice to see you as well.  On the planks, I think the green jobs thing is obviously where we have to look, but IMHO, a platform should begin and end with rebuilding infrastructure (and there's green in that too).  We need to rebuild our roads, bridges, rail lines, etc.  It's indisputable and it creates jobs.

    I agree with the revamped regulation plank.  But did I mention infrastructure?

    On the tax cuts, I know it's heresy to many, but I'd wait--we have to do deficit spending and I just don't think you raise taxes (or eliminate tax cuts) in the middle of the recession.  At some point of course, we'll have to raise revenues, but now is not the time.

    Finally, did I mention infrastructure?

    Ciao.

    Bruce 


    No comment.  Helping myself.  ;o)


    Sometimes I think we are philosophically offended by the idea of working with a plan.

    That could be true, American Dreamer, but I don't think Democrats were always this way.  We had a plan once.  It was called the "New Deal".   Millions of Democrats got solidly and loyally behind it and elected a single man to implement it, four consecutive times.

    Republicans weren't always very organized either.  They had their networks of civic organizations and clubs, and relied on them, but didn't do a lot of extra legwork.  Democrats seem much better at canvassing, grass roots communication and get out the vote efforts.  The Republicans are better, however, at dirty tricks.  The religious right changed the landscape a bit, giving the Republicans an organizational infrastructure in the churches that they didn't have in the paleo-Republican days.

    Democrats have allowed the ideas part of their party to be guided too much by wonky professionals who pride themselves on their absence of "ideology", and who are emotionally and economically remote from the main bulk of ordinary Americans.   These folks don't like plans.  They like "policies", that is, varied packages of 100 separate pragmatic answers to 100 separate questions, answers which don't always partake of a common theme or agenda.


    That could be true, American Dreamer, but I don't think Democrats were always this way.  We had a plan once.  It was called the "New Deal".   Millions of Democrats got solidly and loyally behind it and elected a single man to implement it, four consecutive times.

    Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.  This was done before.  I believe it could be done again.  It is well worth trying and fighting for.

    FDR's jobs programs communicated in bright neon lights the following messages to the entire country: "Your government gets it.  Your government cares.  Your government is doing everything it can to put as many people to work as possible.  If you check around in your community you will know or know of people who have jobs because of these programs.  You will be able to judge for yourself whether these are worthwhile projects to fund."

    Two years into his first term, the voters increased the Democratic majorities in Congress.

    Those who oppose say you can't drop the unemployment rate very much even when you do get public jobs programs up and running, that you can't get that many people to work that quickly.

    On the first part, that's true.  We're talking tenths of a percentage point doing, say, the parts of the Economic Policy Institute's plan for job creation that don't include what has already been done through the various stimulus packages, which has saved the jobs of many teachers and other workers who are on a public payroll.  (ding ding for those looking for good things this Administration has done)

    On the second point, FDR brought in Harry Hopkins, a brilliant administrator who was able to get a lot of people to work fast.  Do opponents say that in a country of 300 million people Obama can't find someone, or maybe a few people or a small army of people, with the talents of a Harry Hopkins, having the benefits of that experience in our history?  Oh come on.  Where is the sense of urgency the situation calls for?  That sounds to me as much an excuse as a reason, given the lack of communication with the public on this issue.  When I say, as I have said, that I think this Administration has low emotional intelligence, this is an example of what I mean.

    However many people you can put to work doing useful things sends a powerful message.  It says to people that their government actually gives a shit about people who are out of work.

    I'm reminded of the starfish story.  A young boy sees an old man on a beach strewn with thousands of starfish as far as the eye can see.  He sees the old men stoop over, pick up a starfish, and toss it in the ocean.  Boy: Why are you doing that? Old man: If I don't, they'll dry out and die.  Boy: But there are so many of them.  What difference does it make?  Old man, picking up a starfish and tossing it back in the ocean: It makes a difference to this one. 


    Can't help myself.  I'm just wondering why the far left isn't starting up a new Progressive Party by now.  If Dems are too center, or too center-right, for most of the left, then why not move further left under a new (but old) mantle and form a party with a much more left-leaning and progressive agenda? 


    Yup, there's that too. 


    Thanks, LisB.  Just curious--you may know by now that I find labels often unhelpful--but would you consider the following "Far Left"?  "Left"?  "Mainstream"?  "Centrist"?:

    *a green infrastructure public jobs program to put people back to work and help get our economy to a better place

    *common sense accountability and regulation of Wall Street that plausibly addresses the problems leading to the most recent meltdown

    *allowing the tax cuts for the rich to expire in order to help reduce the deficit without costing jobs

    Thanks.


    Actually, I just call them smart.  But in sticking with political labels, I think all of the above.


    Yours would be my answer as well.

    Ok, so my takeaway from that is that if Democrats are running on issues such as those and lose in supposedly Blue Dog-only areas, the reason for the loss will almost never be that our candidate was "too liberal", "too left", "not mainstream", whatever--and unelectable on that basis. 

    A key element in the progress the GOP has made over decades has been to drive political discussion farther and farther to the right, to the point where even many Dems start to internalize the GOP view that, apparently, things like adequate financial reform, public green infrastructure jobs, and letting tax cuts on wealthy people expire when we're running astronomical deficits are somehow "left", or "too left", "too liberal", "fringe", or somehow non-mainstream issues. 

    If something progressives want done is not done (perhaps because Republicans have obstructed it, without fear of repercussions), it must be because it's too liberal, not mainstream.  No matter how many indies and sensible Republican citizens may also want those things done, or be persuadable, or at least be willing to let them be tried. 

    All the GOP and the Right have to do is get us to concede that a candidate running on issues such as the ones mentioned above in supposedly Blue Dog-only territory is unelectable because "too liberal".  If we accept that conclusion and fail to recruit and support progressive (so defined as meaning the above, not beliefs that really are left views that are much tougher sells with people not progressive Democrats) candidates in these areas, we forfeit any chance we have of getting a progressive majority in Congress.


    This answer is a twofor -responds to your question and to the original post.

    We (dems,  progressives, liberals, what will you )differ from the Republicans because they're the Party of No.

    Republican leadership only has to unite their troops in opposing something. That's a task that's easy to define and achieve." Just say No to Obamacare"

    But when you're planning to actually do something ,there are an infinite variety of somethings you might do:Public Option? Tort Reform? so we line up behind one of another of them and start shouting "Ya Boo" at our fellows DPLWs in their separate line ups.

    It's not that we form a circular firing squad. To do that we'd first have to get into a circle.

    As to: why not start a new party? Because all we'd be doing is starting a new party we wouldn't actually be doing something.


    But...But...Then we would have to actually agree on something.


    Personally, I want progressives to take over the Democratic Party, which already has a national organizational infrastructure and roots in the government, rather than wander in the third party wilderness for years, hoping to triumph not just against Democratic centrism and complacency, but against the deeply and unshakably institutionalized two-party structure of American politics.

    I've been working on a sort of manifesto, which I will be happy to throw into the mix following the election, along with what I imagine will be numerous other such manifestos.


    I look forward to the manifesto.  I agree that the democratic party already should be the voice of progressives, but over the years only the opposite has happened and it seems progressives are starting to feel homeless already, no?

     


    The so-called leaders of the Democratic Party should be servants of the electorate, not the other way around.

    The Democratic Party is set in it's ways, how will you force it to change?

    It's ways are not Progressive.

    You progressives need to be patient  

    They know; where else will you go? You are captive   

    They tell you have patience and the party will change its ways. 

    To bear with patience wrongs done to oneself is a mark of perfection, but to bear with patience wrongs done to someone else is a mark of imperfection and even of actual sin. Saint Thomas Aquinas

    Abused patience turns to fury. Thomas Fuller 

    All commend patience, but none can endure to suffer.
    Thomas Fuller 

    Is the patience of the American people that long suffering? Is there no outrage left in the country?
    Andrew Greeley 

    Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice. George Jackson


    Hi AD. Just on your three issues above. All three should be the kind of stuff that is capable of garnering broad support across the political spectrum. But if you care about these issues, or other issues of the same common-sense nature, the best thing is probably to avoid trying to promote them through the traditional system of electoral politics as defined by the Democratic party. They seem to destroy the reputation of any good idea they pretend to 'champion', by failing to defend it with conviction, by causing a knee-jerk opposition amongst GOPers, and then by trying to implement it in the worst possible manner. So things like green investments and financial regulation are better formed as bottom up popular movements, acting locally or through the legal system. The best way to kill your issue is put it on the Democratic Party Platform.

    Just a thought...


    I actually was going to say something similar in my comments above, but decided to keep it brief.  What I was going to say was that these are issues that should/could be mainstream and not tied to any particular party.  People I talk with, no matter what party they vote for, all seem to agree we need these things.  So when discussing them, it's better to keep politics out of it and keep to the topic at hand.  As you point out, Obey, the knee-jerk reaction to one party's platform is what keeps a lot of good ideas from getting anywhere.

     

     


    Obey and LisB, good thoughts.  One could point to historical examples of grassroots issue-based movements that generated a groundswell and ended up being coopted by one of the major parties, sometimes after being advocated by a (hiss! boo!) third party which did relatively well.  I'm thinking of the Progressive Party in the earlier part of the 20th century?  But it's been awhile since I've acquainted myself with that history.   

    Lots of questions, of course, about how something like that might play out.  I've jotted down a few I have for this, along with another possible strategy, for possible future reference if I see a discussion on this.  After the election.  :<) 

    I predict disagreements will emerge from such discussions as are had.  :<)


    Well I'm starting to find that the disagreements sometimes help, in the long run.  Like Stilli, I come from the 'lock-step' Republican way of thinking, and I was very hurt and surprised when I discovered that asking for party unity from fellow Democrats was considered so very wrong.  Luckily my skin is growing thicker and I am starting to find that I'd rather belong to a party that questions everything rather than a party that questions nothing.  That being said, however, I still feel that the far-left is feeling left out and I don't know how to address them sometimes.  A lot of my wish-list is far-left, but I'm able to compromise where others aren't.  And I would like to see those who aren't willing to compromise find a firm place in a party that seems to be nullifying their voices more and more.  America needs the far-left, very much!  But lately it seems the two parties aren't giving them legitimacy, and I can't help but wonder what would happen if they branched out away from those two parties and created their own very vocal leftist party, one that a lot of Dems would gladly jump over to.  Whether it be Green, or a new Progressive...

    Either way, I thank you for this post because it's helped start a good discussion here, and it's helped open my eyes.

     


    Thanks very much, LisB, for kind words, and thanks to all for contributions to the discussion.  I was tempted to say that I'm disappointed in all those who've contributed.  But I doubt anyone would have believed me.  Then again, some might be open-minded about that.  :<)

     


    You're disappointed in those who contributed to your post?  Why, because you told us not to?  Pshaw.  We'll talk whether people want to shut us up or not, LOL....

    Wink


    LisB, am curious, especially coming from a former Republican, what are some examples of what you have in mind when you refer to "far-left" issue stances that you find appealing enough to put on your wish list? 


    Off the top of my head, I want Citizens United overturned....I want green jobs and infrastructure jobs to be a number one priority....I want withdrawal from Afghanistan....I want Halliburton and Cheney investigated for war crimes (although at one and the same time, having been a Republican I understood Ford's pardoning of Nixon and therefore can understand - almost - Obama's reluctance to go there)....I want we the people to come first over lobbyists and corporations....that's for starters.

     


    I want we the people to come first over lobbyists and corporations....that's for starters.

    If that is now a "far left" view...wow.  If so, I find it hard to imagine a more graphic illustration of how far the terms of political debate have shifted, to the point where anyone might say with a straight face that that is now somehow a "far left" belief.  If that question were polled nationally I would guess 70%, maybe more, would agree.  If so, and that is a "far left" view, then we are in that important respect a "far left" country with a government dangerously out of sync with the citizenry. 

    My response when someone (not you, I know that's not what you're doing here) tries to pigeonhole and marginalize that as a "far left" view is to push back on that--ask them where they see themselves as located on the political spectrum, do they agree or disagree with that belief, what generally speaking is their concept of how our system of government is supposed to work, do they think the balance is working pretty well right now?  


    No, no, you're right - that one shouldn't be on the list.  I got so carried away just writing out my wish list that I forgot to consider which items were considered "far left".  My bad.  I am sure you are correct in that just about everybody would consider that last one to be mainstream.  Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for spotting my error.

     


    Latest Comments