The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age

    How Not to Rape My Daughter

    By erica20 on Fri, 03/22/2013 - 4:55pm |

    So....fair? Unfair? Effective? Dumb?  What would you change?

    This material would probably be better performed by comedian Louis CK, but you have to do what you can in this world.

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dVURXznJGU

     

     

    Comments

    I just touched on this subject at another site.

    I had not seen this youtube video of course.

    We must warn our children of potential dangers out there.

    We cannot stop all bad things from happening but we can beat the odds or increase the odds of safety for our children.

    But we need to speak bluntly to them and that is not always easy!

    Great video. 

    Louis might even like this since he has those two little girls!


    by Richard Day on Sat, 03/23/2013 - 2:51am

    100% sober? Tell you what she wants? The world's population would be significantly less under those rules, and not in a good way.

    How about a few practical rules:

    1) if she's been doing shots and you haven't slept with her before, she's off limits (exception for Karen Allen in Indiana Jones, who would still be sober and likely kill you, or at least leave you in unrequited bondage)

    2) rohypnol? no, it's not an aphrodisiac - off-limits.

    3) 2 guys at once? she better be near sober or you're going to jail, and even then, you better have some way of justifying her internal party animal was dying to get out

    4) hints that what you're doing is rape: she's comatose, she's sleeping, she can't move, she's thrown up, or even that she'll have a huge splitting headache the next day and will vaguely remember a thing. Ditto for hypothermia, starvation, broken bone in need of medical attention, shockingly desperate for money, or you've kidnapped her child/husband/favorite aunt. (see Blue Velvet for more)

    5) oh yeah, she's telling you 'no', pushing you away or even gives some kind of resigned grin-and-bear it whatever look without actively participating  - it's still rape

    6) maybe use the DUI laws as hint - if she's more than 1 drink past not being able to drive and you've never done it before, give it a rain check.

    But many girls never vocalize or verbalize what they want.

    Oh, & regarding the "like you" part - well, there's the status f***, the revenge f***, etc. among other reasons that doesn't always apply. And buyer's remorse doesn't certify the deal itself was bogus.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 03/23/2013 - 8:10am

    I think these are fine rules for adults who have been out there having sex for awhile. But for minor teens or people who don't have much sexual experience, way too much grey area.

    One of the reasons for this is that there's a lot of question about whether a minor can give informed consent at all.

    I know girls often don't verbalize what they want, but girls sort of pretending it's not happening is something else that probably ought to go away.

     


    by erica20 on Sat, 03/23/2013 - 1:45pm

    Informed consent? Of course not, they're minors for the most part and most of the time not informed or instructed at all. And even then, it's almost assured that whenever a girl has sex the first time, it's much earlier than her parents would agree to. It's been that way probably thousands of years. So often, she's doing a yes/no on herself just because she's breaking with the pee & em over it, much less whether she really likes this guy enough to do it the first time or whether she's tired of being a virgin because half her classmates aren't (or at least say they aren't) and whatever.

    If they can verbalize what they want or don't want, great, if it can be enjoyable instead of pretending or doing what they aren't sure they're ready for, great, but I'm kinda talking about reality and just the basics that boys don't do something unforgivable and immoral and illegal.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 03/23/2013 - 2:28pm

    We might have to agree to disagree on this one.

    I think we need to bring our girls up with the expectation that when they're ready to have sex, they need to take full responsibility for asking for it, whether they've passed the legal age of consent or not. And if a girl can't bring herself to talk directly with a guy about going for it, then either she's not ready, or he's not the right guy. (Which is not to say he has to be Mr. Right, but even if he's just Mr. Right Now, she has to feel enthusiastic about the situation.)

    Of course we'd expect a girl to be nervous, but if she can't be clear, honest and fully present about what's happening, then that is TOO nervous, and we should be honest with guys that if a girl is in that place, she isn't really consenting and there is a chance it could go bad for them if they move forward.


    by erica20 on Sat, 03/23/2013 - 2:43pm

    Well, if you or I raise the girl to be that clear, she has a better chance of actually being that clear when the time comes. "She told me to fuck off" should be warning enough. Can't quite imagine how I'd let a lad know exactly what it means for the girl to be too nervous in sex, but for him it probably means he didn't make it out of his trous anyway and it's tilt-drain ball/let's all go home now.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 03/23/2013 - 3:16pm

    I love this short bit, too.  It helps if it comes from guys. 

    Now if we could just get them to stop using "cunt" and other wretched, demeaning slang for genitalia.


    by Ramona on Sat, 03/23/2013 - 10:05am

    My female cousin always used that word as her preferred slur, while in England & Ireland I think everyone uses it.

    Think it's cultural what people find wretched or demeaning.

    My thoughts & feelings on some genital slang has changed over the decades as well.

    But probably to whom the word's used and in what context and tone is most important.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 03/23/2013 - 10:47am

    Yes, I love that piece!


    by erica20 on Sat, 03/23/2013 - 2:32pm

    Thanks for the link. Short and to the point. I hope this goes viral.

    by trkingmomoe on Sat, 03/23/2013 - 11:03pm

    I'm a regular Dagblogger, but because of what I'm about to write, I'm adding an extra level of obfuscation to my somewhat anonymous Dagblog name.

    Many, many years ago, I was in a long term relationship (engaged, but the engagement was broken prior to marriage) with a woman. One night, as we were in bed, I did the usual male thing of non-verbally initiating sex. She indicated that she was not interested. I non-verbally asked again, and as far as I could tell, she consented. (I don't think it's at all unusual in long term relationships for much of this type of dialog to be non-verbal.) The next morning (!), she informed me that I had raped her. Note that this was not for revenge (this accusation was made to me, and as far as I know, no one else was ever told about it). I'm fairly certain that she was sincere in her accusation, but it made me no less surprised.

    Ever since then, I've been far more careful about getting explicit permission (which is a good thing), but I still have no idea how such a fundamental break-down in communication happened, or why she waited until the next morning to say anything to me, rather than telling me prior to us having sex. I'm a very gentle and accommodating man, and if she had spoken up, I most certainly would've stopped.


    by Deliberately An... (not verified) on Mon, 03/25/2013 - 9:43am

    Fascinating!

    Thank you.

    I do not get a chance to look into someone's soul like this very often.


    by Richard Day on Mon, 03/25/2013 - 11:55am

    Thanks for sharing this story. I think it's a great example of just how tricky the issue of full consent can be, even in grownup relationships between people with a history of communication.

    I suspect there are quite a few of us out there who can take a wincing look back on our intimacies and see examples of "rape-ey" sex, moments when we should have asked more questions or listened better to the answers, or spoken up instead of going along.

    Presumably we all survived and learned from this stuff, but the big question becomes "Is this what we want for our kids?" My hope is that, especially for their first few experiences, our kids can be respectful of each other while they figure out who they are, what they like, and what sex is all about. It's difficult enough for grownups, but for minors, whose brains and judgment aren't fully developed, it's even more important that the path be clear.

     


    by erica20 on Mon, 03/25/2013 - 11:56am

    Does this not strike anyone else as patriarchal and condescending towards women? It reminds me of the days when "young ladies" were treated as delicate half-rational creatures whose honor must be protected.

    Can a woman not choose to have sex with a man she barely knows? Cannot she not be trusted to make her own decisions after one cocktail? (And yet the man is still responsible for his of course.)

    Perhaps this video is directed at minors, though that's not clear to me. That might explain the condescension. But if so, why is it directed only at the boy? Shouldn't both children get the lecture on responsible sex?

    As a teenager, I was once "caught" by a cop while messing around in a parked car. The cop took me aside and lectured me about the risk of unwanted pregnancy. My girlfriend was offended. Why didn't she get the lecture too? If she'd seen this video back then, I bet her reaction would have been much the same. 


    by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 03/25/2013 - 12:41pm

    Yes, of course it's directed at minors. Never mind honor, kids of both sexes have a right to maintain their status as kids, and it's the job of adults to try to make sure it goes ok for them. (I guess in some senses, it is patriarchal/matriarchal, but it's a parent's JOB to go out of the way to help their kids make the transition to adulthood in ways that maintain their safety and self-esteem, not to mention keeping them out of jail. The law agrees.)

    And, this isn't really a discussion of responsible or irresponsible sex, it's about rape. We're not talking about the myriad of good or poor sexual choices that can be made by people who know that they're well on the other side of the rape bright line. We're talking about people who need to understand that some of what their bodies and their buddies tell them is OK, is actually illegal. 

    Anybody who's offended by the patriarchal, condescending nature of the material can immediately set about lobbying  to make it legal to have sex with a young person without his/her full consent, leaving it up to the people themselves to make their own decisions and bear the consequences without the benefit of legal redress. But I personally think that would be a step backward.


    by erica20 on Mon, 03/25/2013 - 2:35pm

    It's not the condescension towards minors that bothers me. It's the condescension towards girls. I meant patriarchal as in male-dominated society, not parent-dominated.

    The message in the video was absolutely a message about sexual responsibility--don't mix sex and alcohol, don't have sex with strangers, etc. Classic parental sermon. The only odd thing about it, what turned it into a rape message, was that the speaker obliged boys to make responsible decisions on behalf of irresponsible girls. She didn't say "Don't have sex unless you're sober and care about her." She said to the boy, "Don't have sex unless the girl is sober and cares about you." The implication is that the boy has autonomy to make bad decisions, but the girl does not. It presents boys as lusty devils who are obliged to restrain libidos and girls as helpless creatures who succumb to their will. And that's positively Victorian.


    by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 1:42am

    I didn't much like the video, but I'd guess boys are much more responsible for unwanted pregnancies than girls - I seem to recall boys pushing more for early sex than girls - and since the pill boys have had much less to think about - he shoots! He scores! it's all the girl's fault if she didn't pick the right contraceptive... in the end she gets all the tough decisions and responsibilities unless he chooses to help out. Some fair deal, eh?

    And the reality is, guys are much more likely to dive into drunk girl's pants than the other way around. And rape is overwhelmingly tilted towards rape of females, aside from prison, and even that's by guys. Sure, some things have changed, but not that much.


    by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 03/25/2013 - 6:50pm

    Yes, you've correctly presented longstanding assumptions about male/female sexuality. But one of the accomplishments of the feminist movement was to challenge those assumptions--to help society recognize that women are autonomous sexual creatures just like men.


    by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 1:51am

    I didn't say they weren't autonomous, thanks, and I just noted cultural trends. Sex tourism is an equal phenomenon for both sexes, or for satisfying primarily male urges?

    A group like Femen doesn't show its tits because of autonomous sexuality - it does it because society doesn't give a shit what women say unless they show their tits, so they're accepting reality and doing an in-your-face action.

    Preventing pregnancy is almost always put on the woman, especially with the assumption she can just take the pill or use an IUD. Or get an abortion if things go poorly. How many guys even realize there are long-term health problems with the pill? Oops, guess most women also don't know they cause cancer et al.

    When the black community started chastising young men about taking responsibility for sex & pregnancy, were they just dealing with "assumptions", or noting the trend that 72% of black children are raised in single parent homes? And that in many of these cases, men are providing no care for their kids. Yes, both parents created the baby, both probably wanted sex (though I still claim frequently a bit more for the guy), but usually the girl gets to deal with most of the real decisions & consequences.


    by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 2:18am

    Ok so I am modifying my earlier somewhat indignant reply to Michael. (I'm going to leave it up there, though. What the heck...)

    I was trying to figure out this patriarchy/condescending piece, and here's my best guess for the moment. 

    I think that what we humans do during sex needs to be looked at separately from the decision to consent to having sex. All kinds of human transactions happen after the consent is granted, and nobody wants to meddle there (!)  but the law understands that the transaction that starts things off needs to be a fair one, and it extends special protection for those whose age, state of mind or smaller physical stature might put them at a disadvantage. This is what people mean when they say that rape isn't about sex, it's about power. Those who don't understand that the initial transaction has to be an equal one, or ignore this truth, are the ones who rape.

    Except for the extremely religious among us, we now accept that people who aren't married and are younger than 18 might be interested in learning about, and hopefully enjoying, sexual contact, but the question of how then to guarantee that the consent is in place becomes more of a challenge. Girls certainly aren't the only people who can be raped, but when these situations present themselves, girls are the ones most likely to find themselves unable to consent and with few choices about where to go from there.

    Hence, the cautions to boys to make absolutely sure that the consent is really there.

    (A possibly unrelated note: if the Steubenville roles were reversed and girls had done the same things to a boy that were done to the girl in this case, they would be equally guilty.)


    by erica20 on Mon, 03/25/2013 - 9:01pm

    Oops, I just saw this after responding above. If the mother in the video had said what you just wrote--that boys should make absolutely sure that the girl consents--I would fully support it. What troubles me is that she did not say that. Instead, she that a boy should not have sex with a girl who has been drinking, who is a stranger, who does not like him (whatever that means), or who did not say explicitly, "I want to have intercourse with you." Of these, only the last really addresses the making-sure part. The rest just oblige the boy to presume to make choices for the girl that she may not have actually made.


    by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 2:10am

    The "she has to like you and know you" part is kinda not even 1960's. Yeah, probably a nice idea, like "be home by 10". Little to do with rape. Hey parents, sometimes your daughter likes the mean, I-don't-care type, whether it's rebellion or sincere lust.

    Drinking a lot shouldn't be invitation to rape. Guys can go out and drink till stupid typically with a near certainty no one's going to pork them while unconscious, but women often don't have that luxury - even when with "good friends".

    Verbalize about sex? Many people of either sex only know how to joke about it, not say anything real, at least not until comfortable with each other after many bouts of sex. Some after decades of marriage. Will that change? Perhaps a bit over decades. Yeah, condom on fruit classes may have broken the ice a little bit.


    by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 2:27am

    I mean no disrespect but after reading this all I could think of was one of my favorite songs.

    And I have a daughter.

    Condom on fruit classes?


    by Richard Day on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 3:29am