I clicked on recommend to help your thread stay alive.

Speaker Pelosi does appear to have a measured view of what happened based on these remarks of hers:

"House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said today that she believed sexism against Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton was a factor in the 2008 Democratic primary fight, but added that the Democratic presidential candidate also benefited from being a woman."

Shorter Pelosi:

"Hillary who?"

I was wondering how long it would take you to settle into that position. It's the only one that makes sense. But I doubt Obama needs our votes.

Huh?

I agree with Pelosi (ALL of her points), but no one's saying that those crying sexism are the "worst people in the world." Can we please focus on what's happening right now? This topic has been examined quite thoroughly, and I think any of us with a heart agree that Hillary was subjected to a lot of sexism.

Pelosi:

“My impression is, yes, there was sexism. My knowledge is, yes, there is sexism because there has been,” Mrs. Pelosi said with a laugh. “I myself find that I get a tremendous upside being a woman, and I don’t spend a lot of time worrying about sexist remarks that people make.”

On the "FU" group you're starting...I wish you were kidding, but I know you're not. Let it go.

First, if you think Obama is only "marginally" better than McCain (especially on gender issues), you need your head examined. Secondly, enough fucking Oppression Olympics. Who cares if she got more sexism than he got racism? Fact is, he won, and if you really think that he won because voters hate women, then you're just being simple. There were many other factors (all of which you consistently ignore) and you know it. The fact that your candidate ran a crappy campaign until the last few weeks, had missteps ranging from money issues to message problems throughout and did her damnedest to destroy a fellow Democrat using Republican talking points had nothing to do with it, right? Please. (And I say that as someone who has voted for Hillary for Senate in NY State.)

Talk about "fake ass" - I always knew your support for Obama was just that, and that you were still mad bitter about the fact that Hillary lost. I think the response you put up to quasar said it all. You really think that helps?

I'm going to be the last person that tries to shut you up. But if you really, honestly think that Obama's nomination is an affront to all women and a betrayal of the Democratic Party's core principles...wow. Suffice to say, I disagree and think you need to relax. Take a cue from your candidate and unite for the greater good.

I think you missed the sarcasm...

You seem to have a thing for lecturing me. Why don't you lecture the assholes on your side who are supporting Obama that continue to be so dimisive and negative towards Hillary for no reason? That continue to trash her and her supporters for no purpose whatsoever except to seed division and then are shocked when Hillary supporters get pissed. Oh I guess the unity theme is on the Hillary side while the Obama folks get to be obnoxious assholes. I don't think so.

If you want to classify yourself in the crowd I am saying FU to "fake ass democrats who have lost the basic core values of what our party used to stand for including respect for all including women," please feel free though I didn't put you in that box.

What I do care about is how the top woman in the dmeocratic party nonchalantly dismissed the sexism that Hillary faced and disregards it. Pelosi faced sexism to. Why should she say anything? Take a look at how African American leaders in congress responded when they feld Obama was being attacked on race - veen with minimal justification. they responded in force. Pelosi is pathetic and I lost the last shred of respect for her that was remaining after the FISA debacle last week. She is a disgrace.

You guys won. But what did you win? A candidate that gives a neocon-lite talk to AIPAC the day after the nomination. A candidate that turns his back on his pledge for public campaign financing so he can spend a half billion dollars in two months broadcasting everywhere? A candidate that faced with a FISA compromise vote will turn his back on his pledge to vote no on a bill with immunity for telecoms. This is the change you've been waiting for? You got had. Don't be mad at me. Blame your candidate.

Is he better than McCain and how much? I have no effing idea because I don't know who he is and neither do you. He says one thing to move on in the primary and another thing once he's got the general election sewn up. And you said Hillary's gas tax proposal was a pander?

So the moral of the story is I am still plenty pissed at the democratic party and Obama but I have no choice but to support him as the candidate because he's NOT MCCAIN. But what I won't do anymore is allow the asshole Obama supporters to continue to attack Hillary as ungenuine or divisive or do anything to win or dismiss her because Obama is even worse. Hillary was who she was. Obama is what you want him to be at that particular moment until your support means less than the moderates and then he'll shove you under the bus and pander for whatever gets him more votes. The audacity of hope in action. Congratulations!

31?? Damn, girl... you're gorgeous!! I had you pegged at roughly 10 years younger than that.

Please accept my apologies for such an inappropriate remark; simply astounded is all.

I made a comment like this before regarding one of your HRC-sexist blogs.

Hillary Rodham Clinton definitely was treated in a sexist manner.

Had she NOT been a female, she would never have been considered a qualified candidate for US Senator, let alone President of the United States.

He sole qualification was her marriage to Bill Clinton, period. She was a celebrity thereby.

Had she not done so--married Bill-- and embarked on a career herself, she certainly may have achieved, in her own right, as much as Bill did. But she choose to sublimate her own career to his; she choose to pour her considerable abilities into helping her husband reach the pinnacle of political success.

But that's all she did. She was a high-powered, superbly educated, brilliant, super-housefrau, riding on her husband's coattails, while whispering guidance in his ear.

Maybe women of her era had no other choice, but she was given every benefit of the doubt by the voters of NY, and by millions of voters in the primary. Benefits that no male in the world would ever have enjoyed. And she lost.

She tried to usher in the Eva Peron era in American politics and almost pulled it off. But just as her candidacy marked the first serious female run for the Presidency, so too will it mark the last female candidate who has to anchor her campaign to the starlight radiating from her man.

The next woman--barring Michelle Obama running in 8 years--will be a free floating, independent entity in and of herself.

Well I obviously did because I'm not even sure whose you're referring to. Dijamo's or yours? (I was responding to her post, not your comment.)

I'm just so sick of all this bleating about sexism. I didn't hear any complaint about it when the women jumped up and down complaining that Obama and Edwards were beating up on a woman. How sexist was *that*?

And I'd be a whole lot more upset about sexism if it had been a woman who'd worked her own way up from the bottom ranks rather than having been given so many damned legs up because of who she'd been married to. Crucially, had that been the case, she may well have had a damned more insight into how to run her own campaign so that she would have been able to win based on her own merits rather than concluding that she had to resort to `kitchen sink`.

I'd have been really, deeply upset about it had it been applied to a woman of real integrity who hadn't run the most disgraceful campaign I could imagine giving the Republicans so much damned ammunition to use against the nominee of her own party: (something which her opponent didn't do). Not only that, but by extending the campaign well beyond the point of statistical improbability most of all she gave them fantastic insights into what did and didn't work so that they wouldn't have to go through a period of trial and error which would have put them further behind the eight ball.

And for good measure, the fundamental reason I'd like to see a woman Democratic president is that one has the maybe idealised, romantic sense that just maybe she'd be governed by some really progressive attitudes to small things like war and peace, the power of diplomacy, rather than her standard operating manual of triangulation.

Hear, hear. Fuck it, I am going to run in four or eight years after Obama wins, as an Independent, not because I'm married to or close to or happen to know anyone in politics, but because I'm a woman and I know what it's like to love children and mothers and I didn't vote to authorize the war in Iraq, nor did I vote for Kyl-Lieberman.

Do I have your vote, dijamo?

mmmmm mmmmm...Dijamo! Girrrrlllll, you serve up some good troll sandwiches.

You're unreal.

Quasar seriously FU. Who's the freaking troll? The person who actually has substance to her criticism or the pathetic thing that waltzes in with the oh so witty "Hillary who?" get some new material.

If you want to continue to belittle and deman Hillary, then I will continue to criticize Obama. Unity is not a one way street.

You lost me a few months ago when you tried to recycle yourself as Minamo.

Dumbass minamo is my sister who rarely shows up here. You lost me because you never ever have anything intelligent to say.

Oh and worst of all you fell for Obama. That shows a serious lack of judgement right there. You my friend are unelectable as President.

Do you have a plan on universal healthcare? Do you have a plan for foreclosure crisis. Have you sepnt your life workign as a lawyer advocate for women and children? Have you been integrally involved in reforming a statewide educational system? Have you been a force in the Senate for the peopel from NYS to make sure we get our fair share of tax dollars back and fight for homeland security funding? Have you been a part of pushing for the FMLA rights? Have you worked on behalf of veterans. If you ahven't then please be quiet. Hillary even with her flaws has made a million times more difference in this world than you and Obama has accomplished far less than she has on her own merits.

Number one, you seem angry because your normally well-written (and spell-checked) posting abilities bit the dust with this one.

Number two, you are narrowing this whole thing down to 1) NYC and 2) women and families.

Number three, you are (in your own words) trying to claim that Obama has as much inexperience in government as I have.

What, dijamo, you're suddenly drinking while posting? Shame on yuz. Go to sleep, sweetie. Stop hitting the sauce.

I don't know why ANYBODY would pick Dijamo for a name.

Then double up with Minamo?

You seem to have a thing for lecturing me.

Hardly. I thought your opinions were foolhardy, and I said as much. How is that lecturing?

Why don't you lecture the assholes on your side who are supporting Obama that continue to be so dimisive and negative towards Hillary for no reason?

I don't know about "dismissive" (right? or "divisive"?), but there's plenty of reason to be negative towards Hillary. She's provided all of that herself, and they have nothing at all to do with her gender. I won't recount it here, because we've been going through it for the last six months. You know damned well what she's done.

Look, if someone on the team I support is acting like a jerk, I may still support my team - but I'm not blind to the fact that that guy or gal is a jerk! (See, Belle, Albert.)

That continue to trash her and her supporters for no purpose whatsoever except to seed division and then are shocked when Hillary supporters get pissed.

What blog are you reading? Seriously, I see no one bringing up Hillary's name but you, and perhaps a few other Hillary holdouts. Maybe I'm not combing this site looking for the latest in Hillary slights, but I certainly read my share of posts. Point me in the right direction; I'm more than willing to concede the point.

Oh I guess the unity theme is on the Hillary side while the Obama folks get to be obnoxious assholes. I don't think so.

Let me break the news: he's the nominee. You thought we'd all unite around her?

And as for branding us as "obnoxious assholes" - glass houses. Slow your roll, and start naming people. Surely you know their aliases, seeing as they piss you off this much.

If you want to classify yourself in the crowd I am saying FU to "fake ass democrats who have lost the basic core values of what our party used to stand for including respect for all including women," please feel free though I didn't put you in that box.

Thanks for not pigeonholing me that time. I would love to join a group that is committed to adhering to Democratic values and speaking truth to power. But your idea sucks. I'm sorry, it does. You really think something like that would be anything but destructive at this stage of the game?

What I do care about is how the top woman in the dmeocratic party nonchalantly dismissed the sexism that Hillary faced and disregards it. Pelosi faced sexism to. Why should she say anything?

Wow, you were serious.

Maybe Pelosi's a lot less interested in being a victim than you are. Hey, I say the same thing about Sharpton, et. al. and racism as far as I'm concerned. Self-victimization and brooding over perceived slights gets us nowhere. I believe in accountability, and so does Pelosi - she didn't have to say anything. But what Pelosi drove home is that, yes - sexism is out there. She experiences it, too. But you never hear her or any of her supporters holler (in the fashion you're doing) that their candidate was gravely disadvantaged by it! That's my problem with your position.

Take a look at how African American leaders in congress responded when they feld Obama was being attacked on race - veen with minimal justification. they responded in force.

To compare the positions of acknowledged Obama supporters defending him during the primary to a powerful figure like Pelosi that didn't endorse acknowledging the sexism Hillary supporters (and some of the rest of us) complain about...that's beyond simplistic. They're not even the same situation, politically speaking. And that's the sphere they're operating within. Don't expect anyone within that arena to say anything revolutionary.

Pelosi is pathetic and I lost the last shred of respect for her that was remaining after the FISA debacle last week. She is a disgrace.

FISA's a different issue. I agree with you somewhat, though I'm not as alarmist as most are here on TPM because I realize that this ain't over.

You guys won. But what did you win? A candidate that gives a neocon-lite talk to AIPAC the day after the nomination.

Whatever. With all the shit you spewed at him during the primary and today, you're one to talk about "neocon-lite".

A candidate that turns his back on his pledge for public campaign financing so he can spend a half billion dollars in two months broadcasting everywhere?

Like that's a bad thing?

If you don't agree with his reasons for foregoing the financing, fine. But we saw what happened to Kerry when he did the same thing, thinking everything would be cool. I'm glad Obama's not that naive.

A candidate that faced with a FISA compromise vote will turn his back on his pledge to vote no on a bill with immunity for telecoms.

Sheesh. The man said he's going to work to get the immunity out of the bill! There's a reason two guys who've endorsed him, including one of his biggest supporters in the Senate, are planning to filibuster this thing. You think that's happening without Obama's input?

Do you just read whatever parts of the news that will get you into a (self-)righteous anger, and ignore the rest? I've heard of another group of folks that loves to do that.

This is the change you've been waiting for? You got had.

Wow. That's not self-righteous at all! "You didn't vote for the candidate I liked, so you're fools"? I'm a responsible voter, and I've thoroughly researched the platforms of every single candidate in this race, from Obama to Clinton to McCain to Giuliani to Huckabee to Paul to Kucinich. I did so so that I might make an informed decision, and I chose Obama. If that makes me a fool in your eyes, I guess I'll have to live with that.

Don't be mad at me. Blame your candidate.

Don't be mad at me. Blame your candidate.

Is he better than McCain and how much? I have no effing idea because I don't know who he is and neither do you.

That's so weak. You either are being lazy or dismissive yourself. You'll notice that they differ on virtually every issue! Goodness. Are you even paying attention?

He says one thing to move on in the primary and another thing once he's got the general election sewn up. And you said Hillary's gas tax proposal was a pander?

Huh? It was a pander - about the grossest one I've seen since the "No new taxes" speech by Bush's daddy. How is he differing in his positions? (The ones that matter and could make a difference in our lives, I mean.)

So the moral of the story is I am still plenty pissed at the democratic party and Obama...

Funny that none of that anger is reserved for the candidate you supported. I'm an avid sports fan, and damn if I wasn't pissed that my Indians only scored two stinkin' runs against one of the worst teams in baseball (at home!) tonight. I don't blame the SF Giants. I don't blame the umpires and I sure as hell don't blame the fans or the weather (it was a perfect night in Cleveland, for once). I blame my team for not executing.

When your candidate pisses away a HUGE lead in the polls to start with, makes odd and offensive statements, disregards the caucus states because "they don't matter" (and loses 12 straight contests, incl. VT, in the process), her fundraising is dwarfed and her advisers give her bad advice, how is that Obama's fault, exactly? Or the Democratic Party? She's advocating her legitimacy in every way but that which the Party established - delegates - and yet, it's the Party's fault? She does everything in her power to undermine Obama's candidacy, going negative at every turn, and it's his fault when it doesn't work?

Get over yourself.

but I have no choice but to support him as the candidate because he's NOT MCCAIN.

I'm sorry it's so painful for you. I mean that seriously. You should never dread your vote.

But what I won't do anymore is allow the asshole Obama supporters to continue to attack Hillary as ungenuine or divisive or do anything to win or dismiss her because Obama is even worse.

How is Obama worse? Can you offer any specific examples, because all I hear from you is bluster about how fucking horrible Obama is, and was to Hillary in the primary. (Guess that's why she gave one of her best speeches ever in endorsing him, eh? Because he sucks.)

Hillary was who she was.

So that's an excuse for the way she conducted herself, and her campaign? Because we all knew what we were getting?

Or did you simply mean that she was consistent, because that's a load, too. The changes in her positions from Iraq to immigration were significant.

Obama is what you want him to be at that particular moment until your support means less than the moderates and then he'll shove you under the bus and pander for whatever gets him more votes. The audacity of hope in action. Congratulations!

And I guess all us libs were gunning for the war when Hillary voted to give this President a blank check to go to war? Huh? I don't hear word one from you about that. And when most Dems (including her) were joining the chickenhawk GOP in sending young men and women to DIE FOR FUCKING OIL, Obama was against it.

No candidate on this earth is going to avoid disappointing even his or her most loyal supporters at some point. It is important for us to keep our heads and realize what the greater good is. It seems that you've done that to an extent, but goodness...do you really think saying things like "Fuck unity" are helpful? And please, save any nonsense about your needing to vent after a deep disappointment; keep a diary or talk to a friend or family member. TPM is a place of public discourse, and you influence more people than you know. To paraphrase Dr. King, there's ways for people to continue to disagree without being vitriolically disagreeable. I understand how angry you are, but for goodness' sakes, there are more important things going on here than what you or I feel.

Eyes on the prize, folks.

One more thing: Nancy Pelosi may not always be as effectual as we Dems would like her to be, but she got all the way up to the post she sits in, which is two people away from President.

AND, she's a woman and apparently had no problem with any glass ceiling, AND she wasn't married to a former President.

After praying on this, I remembered Galatians 5:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulnees, gentleness and self-control. Against, such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I meant no disrespect, sister. We disagree, but as I said, I'd hope we can do so in the future without vitriol.

Yeah she had no political connections except her dad as congressman & mayor. TOTALLY got there on her own.

To be fair, how did being the daughter of Baltimore's mayor help her win a special election to get her House seat? And being the daughter of a mayor is a heck of a lot different than being the First Lady for eight years, no?

Nope, never was. I don't break a sweat telling a guy like you to shut the fuck up. Considering your behavior in this thread and mine, I'd say your deeming dijamo a troll is ironic. To be kind.

Couldn't agree more. As much as I enjoy debate, I wish I'd made better use of my time, and that we all could get past this.

I still don't know what PUMA is (other than a mountain lion). I refuse to look it up on principle. Second on the vitriol. Can't we fight nicely?

Apparently not. I take some of the blame here - as you see above, I let myself get sucked into the quicksand...

I'm not PUMA - I'm a NYer who doesn't have to support some candidate just because 51% of my party did. I am entitled to disengage from a political process where my views are not respected. And I have no freaking obligation to continue to defend Obama or to engage in the political process.

To start.

I'm female.

What I did in your thread was to ask the question if Fareed Zakaria was a moderate conservative.

I stated that he impressions that he's "the smartest person in the room". He opinions after it's safe to do so from people that are pioneer of thought and takes it as his "analysis". And because of his arrogance I thought he was a numptie.

But this was after your long post on the virtues of his thought without you really knowing anything about Fareed but maybe a few TV appearances and not the think tank groups I challenged you on.

Since you were wrong. Is it my problem that you feel as though you have to wear your wedgie today?

You shouldn't. Because I wouldn't have felt that you still feel like your fake business meant that much to you.

Somebody lied to you. You're not that special. And I didn't feel as though your post could not be critiqued. It was bad.

I'll go one step further. I name you provocateur. I agree with dijamo that your original post was a dismissive lecture, which is not to say that she didn't escalate the vitriol. To avoid provocation, try to avoid telling people to have their head examined, calling their ideas foolhardy, implying that that their posts are ludicrous, etc.

If a post doesn't justify a serious response, then a) ignore it, or b) ridicule it. Engaging seriously with condescension is the thing that provokes these fights. Generally though, while I often disagree with dijamo, I think her non-vitriolic posts merit a respectful response.

You need to look up the acronym PUMA, Genghis.

Talking party unity to a troll isn't worthwhile.

I agree with you - that's what I meant by the quicksand metaphor. Sometimes my lesser natures get the best of me. That's why I prayed on it, and shared the verse I did, hoping to calm some of the tensions I'd raised. I appreciate your perspective - you offer good advice.

Okay, against my better judgment, I came back into this thread.

dijamo, I just have this to say: There were several very good and qualified Democratic presidential candidates running all of last year. Edwards, Biden, Richardson, Dodd, Kucinich, Clinton, Obama, Gravel too.

The people of the USA narrowed it down to two. Clinton and Obama. The people of the USA then narrowed it down to one.

Whether Clinton was a man or a woman, after a while, made no difference. The people of the USA narrowed their vote down to the candidate that they felt would make the most difference this year.

I don't know how else to put it, where it will help disgruntled women make sense of it. I just know that two candidates, narrowed down into a small field, from a big field, came down to be the last two standing.

And one won. And won didn't.

If you want me to applaud Hillary Clinton for being one of those last two standing: I do. I do.

She beat all those other men.

But Senator Barack Obama beat her, at the end, because I guess most people in America wanted something new.

It wasn't sexism. It wasn't anything more than the people's choice, over who is new and who is not, and who might have a better chance of beating the Republicans this year.

So much for me leaving....heh.

You know why Dijamo won't answer?

Because Dijamo is a troll.

And to you Lis - I give thee the blessed olive branch award. Sometimes you just amaze me - thanks. Don't stop.

O...I get it.

You really DON'T like being wrong again.

You're embarrassed.

Po' Scientific.

He puff up and go..."pffft".

I'll never let you rest from this.

Wright, Fareed and now troll smoochies?

Never.

So now you're stalking me? Isn't that the very definition of a troll?

After much thought and consideration....I won't.

I won't stop.

Thanks, Aunt Sam.

Thanks, America, for giving me my rights. They might be slowly, oh so slowly disappearing, but the fact that we can all sit here on this one website -- out of so, so, SO many in the world -- and agree to disagree (without a moderator, for the most part), is a right that I will fight my damndest to uphold.

What about the people in Africa, tonight, who have lost their right to vote for an opposition party????

Jesus, people. Get over the stupid small stuff, before it's US who lose.

And not just US, in the grand old USA, but everybody else. Are you paying attention to THEM?

(jumps off of soap box)

I'm just sayin'. Freedom is being fought for, everywhere. Fight the GOOD fight. Fight for RIGHTS. Eh?

Though there are similarities, race does not equal gender, and I never suggested that it did nor engaged in the game of who gained/lost more from their gender/race. I was simply noting that Obama both gained and lost from his race, as Clinton both gained and lost from her gender.

Pelosi apparently does not believe that sexism seriously impacts her own success, and she projects that on Clinton. She may be wrong about her own case and Clinton's, but being wrong does not make her pathetic. Moreover, Pelosi is the most powerful woman in the country and arguably the highest ranking woman in the history of the U.S. I would say that she is in a far better position to judge the impact of sexism in politics than you or I. That doesn't mean that she's right, but it should give you some pause before you dismiss her perspective as "pathetic".

Citing a quote and shouting angrily about how obviously absurd or pathetic it is does not constitute an argument. If you want to convince people like me who are at least open to the possibility that Pelosi is too dismissive, you'll need to put together a more cogent argument. If you just want to holler your frustration into the blogosphere, then keep on yelling.

As I just said, quasar....shouldn't we all be fighting together? For freedom?

The more we fight against ourselves, the more we will fail and the closer we will get to losing our right to fight at all.

Let's all go to bed on a good note. Eh?

Nope.

Quasar, what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

G'night lisb!!!!!!! You're too cool for this thread.

Here I'm in the zone with a PUMA and he shows up cussing me. Fuck that.

And he can stay away again like everytime he gets stomped.

And you, Genghis, are too cool for that shirt.

(smooch)

Just helping Scientific navigate his wedgie.

It's got GPS.

I can Google Earth it.

From Ferdinand.

Ferdinand the Bull? He was a very lovely bull, was he not? He was able to stop fighting, and smell the flowers. Appreciate the flowers. To the point where he got laughed at, by all the other bulls.

I love Ferdinand the Bull. It's a nice bedtime story, too, besides being meaningful, and all.

Sweet dreams, luv.

Ferdinand was never lonely. He immersed himself in the sensual.

He was laughed at because of this.

But he fought when proof was needed. When necessary. And was as triumphant as any. More so

But...

his desire was not like any other. It was special only to him. So what? He accepted it and stayed true to himself.

Trolls don't.

Haha!

What's the etymology?

Same as Brits saying "Silly Moo". Kinda.

Hmmnn, Hillary's health care plan was not universal. Universal healthcare implies tax payer funded, single payer health care. Hillary knows that, but she insisted on using the word "universal" to imply her plan contained something it didn't.

Forcing people to buy insurance is not "universal health care." Just like forcing people to buy car insurance, under threat of heavy fines and loss of license, is not universal accident protection.

Or when Americans say "wanker" imagining that the Brits mean something similar to what we mean when we call someone a "jerkoff".

I'll second this. Quasar's tendency to drop accusations of "troll" makes me think that she gets discounts for volume.

And you're a moron.

Speaker Pelosi is a Democrat.

Senator Clinton is a Me-ocrat.

Aren't you late for your appointment as Manatee chum?

Thanks. I almost forgot the deep discounts on cheap insults.

Basically, don't take anything seriously coming from quasar. I know I don't.

What feminist is silent in the face of sexism on other women? She's a petty person who thinks politics is an effing popularity contest and since she doesn't like Hillary she did everything to put her thumbs on the scale for Obama.

I'd heard of the Aussie usage. With Quasar's usage I wondered if the meaning had changed with transportation into American-English (I'm assuming Quasar lives in the USA).

With both definitions, I'm still wondering which one is the accepted version, here in America. One has a racial-sexual overlay and the other is significantly milder. Any views?

Amen. If it were just newcomers, I'd suspect them as RNC scabs, but it's the same-old-same-olds pitching in. Quite annoying for so many reasons.

You don't take your dissertation seriously either.

Marginal??? Are you off your rocker?

If Hillary suffered at the hands of sexism, then that's sucks, but it's not my fault as an Obama voter, and it doesn't make Obama a sexist.

And considering how many white people in Appalachia polled saying they'd never vote for a black person, and all the nonsense about Obama being "black enough/not black enough" in the media (should we blame Hillary for that? No), I think it's fair to say that neither candidate had a big demographic advantage.

Hillary was the establishment candidate, who was proclaimed (by the media) as not only a shoe-in, but by far the most qualified and competent, that is, until the voting started. Trotting out this victimhood angle after the fact shows a sheer ignorance of recent history, and is offensive to both women (my wife, anyway) and men who advocate for a strong feminist agenda in national politics.

"Marginal??? Are you off your rocker?"

NOTE: I was trying to reply to a earlier post where dijamo said that Obama would be only a "marginal" improvement over McCain, as if the war in Iraq and abortion rights aren't a, you know, BIG FRICKIN DEAL...

:-P

I have nothing but contempt for Speaker Pelosi's lack of leadership. But she's pointing out a simple reality: sexism is a subject barely worth discussing as it relates to politics. It's a distraction, an excuse, a crutch, a red herring. But it's not a subject a true feminist would even bring up in this regard. Hillary is an opportunist--not a feminist.

Because she refuses to make excuses for herself based upon her genitalia, you accuse her of failing to stand up for other women. Nancy Pelosi understands what it takes to make it in politics and/or business--namely, doing your work and not blaming your failures on anything other than not doing a good enough job. Being a woman is not a weakness. Pelosi knows that. Apparently you don't.

BTW folks, the "debate" about the WAR was long ago. Buck up, GET OVER IT, and support your country! Or do you hate America?

No, dijamo, you've lost your mind. You can't fucking make a decision. First you're all party unity and "I'm angry, but I'm working through my anger and I'm a Democrat and I'll support Obama". Now you're back in the loony bin with readytoblowagasket and Billy Fucking Glad. You rely too much on carelessly raising your sails and riding whatever wind happens to be blowing at the time. Trouble is, you can't decide if you want to be actively involved in setting your own course. You're what psychologists would refer to as passive/aggressive. Or perhaps bipolar. This election isn't about Hillary or Obama. It's about YOU. It's about what YOU want. And neither one of them can give you what you want. But make a fucking decision, OK, baby? Grab the halyard and pull it in, or let it loose. Just do something.

You can say that but I don't think anyone would care but maybe "The Girl from the Bronx".

hmmmmm?

jealous?

Moral of the story: because some Obama supporters are slamming Hillary unfairly, you're going to slam Obama unfairly - even though he's the candidate you'll be voting for in the fall.

Makes perfect sense.

We love America enough to pull our men and women in uniform out of an unnecessary war. You think patriotism is towing the Bush company line?

Dijamo has said plenty of nasty things about Senator Obama, even after he had locked up the nomination. She also came on here and called her own Mother a liar, because her mother said that she did not vote for Hillary, and yet this same Dijamo never stops caterwauling about how if one single Obama backer said something about Hillary, that Dijamo took offense at, then that is cause for a Dijamo to go into perpetual Grouching PUMA mode.

Grouching PUMA, Hidden Dragon Lady.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/D/A/2/vote-for-spite.jpg

Sign me up .... In the immortal words of the Dixie Chicks, I'm not ready to make nice

Liam likes to pretend he is the captain of the team. "Remember team this is the mission. don't attack mccain on age. Feel free to call Hillary a bitch as you wish. I am very important. Listen to me dammit. Obama speaks to me directly and I am his prophet."

Liam has no sense of humor. He is unbearably self-important and obsessed. he does not get a freaking joke like even when followed by a smiley face emoticon. That's how non-funny and stuffy and assholish he is.:

As one of those 18 million, she speaks for me and my sister and one of my best friends who were all very sad that Hillary for sure. My mom sold out and joined the Obama bandwagon back in May. She tries to deny she voted for Hillary but I know the truth :) 3 out of 4 in my randon social network poll. So she speaks for at almost about 13 million folks. Not a number to be ignored.

Posted by dijamo
June 4, 2008 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink

Liam thinks his fucking cartoon is so witty yet doesn't have the common sense to get it through his skull that I'm not voting for McCain. Liam needs to go back to coaching school so he can figure out that the way to unify a team is not to take half of it and just keep berating them for no reason at all but to continue to seed divisions.

Liam is pathetic and hasn't realized that I'm not scared of him. Bullying is not an effective mechanism of soliciting political support and you are just sabtaging your own candidate with your asstastickness.

You do realize how much time you wasted posting that, yes?

I type more quickly when I'm pissed but accuracy declines dramatically.

Now you have turned into a blatant liar. I never said that it was OK to call Hillary a bitch. In fact I said the exact opposite. I said that people would not accept having someone call their own mother that name, and therefore they should stop trying to justify calling any woman that name. That is what I actually said, but as a vicious vindictive liar, you are far more interested in fomenting division, with your lying turdblossom tactics, than you are in electing a Democrat.

Begone Grouching PUMA, Hidden Dragon Lady.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/D/A/2/vote-for-spite.jpg

I understand your pain - but I think there is a bit of a disconnect. How cvould you be so shocked at the idea that Hilary's being a woman both hurt and helped her? I, as a Hilary supporter (I voted for her in my state) who was eventually turned off by her intense and relentless negative campaigning, can see that. Similarly, Barrack's race is hurting him in some areas, and in some areas, it is helping him. There is nothing racist or sexist about any of these comments. They are merely statements of fact and common sense. Hilary was a great candidate - but the MEN around her blew it by not planning for the caucus states, urging her to too negative too soon - and by failing to see the remarkable amount of energy around Obama. If you want to blame someone - blame Mark Penn. But not Barrack - besides the single "she's likable enough" comment - everything he said about her was positive. Can she say the same?

Well if Katie Couric is Olbermann's WPITW for merely looking at the media's role in sexism against HRC and you have nothing to say about that, why would you criticize me for having Pelosi as my WPITW for failing to speak out against sexism. Oh I get it. The democratic speaks up for racial discrimination not gender discrimination and the hypocrisy doesn't bother you or Nancy Pelosi. The dmeocratic party did not used to be this way and I hope one day we can return to decency and respect for all - preferably so the next female presidential candidate doesn't have to put up with the crap Hillary faced with no support from her party leaders.

At least I admit when I lie (for the purposes of emphasizing how unfair it is when someone ascribes a position to you that you do not hold)as opposed to you who has no decency whatsoever. You just continue to do it. Turnabout is fairplay and I am not going to let some bully asshole like you lie about me and not return the favor.

A PUMA by any other name is still the same. They are against Party Unity, and so are you. You said so on this very blog, which you created. Did you forget that you actually admitted that you were against Party Unity, just the PUMA movement proclaims. Here are your own words admitting as much:

"That's it. I'm starting my own Hillary support group called FU: Fuck Unity. Yes we'll vote for Obama over McCain, but to hell with all these fake ass democrats who have lost the basic core values of what our party used to stand for including respect for all including women. You deserve the inauthentic infomercial candidate that you have chosen to lead our party.
Posted by dijamo
June 24, 2008 8:17 PM"

PUMA, or FUMA, you are still working to keep the party divided. Your own words have exposed you.
Rant on all you want to, but Speaker Pelosi would never take such a divisive stand. Shame on you.

zzzzzzzzzzzz(YAWN)zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Try empathy. Repeated attacks on your candidate of choice and you directly will eventually piss you off. If the situations wree reversed and Obama had lost, do you think Hillary supporters would be in the nyah nyah nyah mode get over it and continue to attack Obama and then bemoan the fact that Obama voters are not unifying. You think the dmeocratic party could have openly mocked black voters who were angry that their chosen candidate lost and told them get over it and line up behind Obama?

Hillary and her supporters have been disrespected in the primary campaign and AGAIN the nomination process is over and some folks on the Obama side still feel the need to put down Hillary and her supporters. That's an express lane track to defeat in Novemeber and hopefully they'll come to their senses. But they are so blinded by hate that's very unlikely.

Nonsense. As a daughter of a politician, Pelosi is far closer to the term Dynasty, than Clinton. Neither truly are.

You are Humpty Dumpty.

There's glory for you!'

`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

`When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'

http://www.mtsu.edu/~rbombard/RB/Texts/LookingGlass/ch6.html

dijamo, I read some very good advice recently that I think might serve you well at this point:

1. Fleur de Sel Caramel Ice Cream - Haagen Dazs. Instant nirvana.

2. Run on treadmill with iPod set to ANGRY. My personal faves are List of Demands (Reparations) - Saul Williams and Killing in the Name of - Rage Against The Machine set on repeat for 45 minutes (cool down to Eye of the Tiger as always :)). Alternate with kickboxing class. Instead of doing your usual visulaizations of the final battle scene in The Karate Kid, picture landing a roundhouse kick to Howard Dean or whomever has offended you most that day. Bonus - this helps counteract overindulgence of #1.

3. Come to TPM to express your anger and outrage. Some would say we should just bottle up my disappointments and sweep them under the rug. I respectfully disagree. So please engage others and tell them why your so pissed. Please note engaging in actual dialogue means acknowleding and listening to other points of view so that you can tell them exactly why they are an idiot or assacious. Verbal body slams and jousting helps us to vent our frustrations in a positive manner. And sometimes even in disagreement we find common ground in our core beliefs. Makes you realize that democrats are not as divided as we tought.

4. Remember what this election is all about: NOT MCCAIN

5. After you've vented your anger & come to the realization of what's most important, go back to your iPod to the mellow songs and play Love is Stronger than Pride.

I am livid that you have the nerve to address me whith your unity bullshit and not look in the mirror at yourself and those seeding dissension on the Obama side.

What you're perhaps missing, dijamo, is that there is no longer an "Obama side". The race for the nomination is OVER. Finished. Done. Finito. Complete. There is no Hillary side. No Obama side. Just our candidate and the other candidate. And the other candidate, my dear, is NOT Hillary. It is John McCain. And he is a shriveled little pimp who calls his wife a c*nt in front of friends and wants to continue the destruction of our country a la George W. Bush. So buys your ticket and makes your choice. But please put to rest the notion that Hillary is one of your choices. She's back in the Senate. She's no longer a candidate.

As for for the party unity bullshit, that's about getting along with the party--not me or any other Obama supporter. I like to think--no, wait, I like to KNOW FOR A FACT--that if Hillary had won the nomination, I would be doing 100% less whining than you, and I would NEVER claim that Obama had lost because of racism.

I'm not saying I'm better than you, dijamo. Just less of a big, fat, spoiled baby.

Jeez. I just read your comment again. "Two petty females." If you were a man, I'd call you a misogynist prick. Fucking Shriner.

By the way, for those who may be offended by my characterization of politics as a man's game: that was for dijamo's ears. She's an absolutist, so I'm forced to put things in ridiculously stark terms in order to communicate what I mean. I don't really think politics is a man's game. I think it's a hu-man's game. But hu-mans tend to place gender issues in perspective. Mans and wo-mans tend to get all bent out of shape about gender issues. And they're no fun to play with. Hu-mans are funner. According to the kitty-bunner.

And just to clarify for the record, I chose Hillary because of policy not gender. If Obama was running against any other woman candidate, I would have chosen him (after John Edwards of course whose policies I also prefer to Obama). That said, if Hillary was NOT my candidate of choice, I would still be outraged at the sexist attacks in the media ignored by the party leaders and actively participated in by some democrats. It's called a principled position - sexism is wrong or it isn't regardless of whether you actually like the person. If that's what you consider absolutist, then you got me pegged.