David Seaton's picture

    Now you may understand why I wanted McCain to win

    Wheeeeeeeeeeeee

    In the run up to the last presidential election, a lot of my readers couldn't understand why a self-proclaimed progressive like myself wanted the Republicans to win. Perhaps if they read something I wrote in my home blog on September 03, 2008 and compare it with today's reality they may begin to get what I was driving at:

     

    I favor the Republicans this year, because I want them to be left holding the bag.

    From a geopolitical point of view, the last couple of years have been like the run up of a roller coaster: You know, the TOCK... TOCK... TOCK...... TOCK that comes just before the wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    All this has been building up for a long time and it not just George W. Bush, Bill Clinton was also a lousy foreign policy president and a lot of what is happening with Russia and with Israel/Palestine today is his fault... we are talking about sixteen straight years of bad decisions and bad policy, which are now coming to a head.

    The next four years, whoever is in charge, lots of the chickens will hatch or come home to roost and much of the shit will hit the fan, the mortgage will be foreclosed, or any other metaphor that describes for you the ripening of poisonous fruit. It is very possible that NATO will break up, Mexico may collapse and its entire middle class move north and that even the Israelis may end up looking for a new best friend.

    Whoever is in charge is going to get blamed for it all.

    Even if Obama were half the statesman his supporters think he is, which he most certainly isn't, there is practically nothing that he could do by now to dodge all these coming disasters and humiliations; they have been built to last with loving care over some time.

    Whoever it is, it's going to be "They lost Iraq... They lost Afghanistan ...they lost the Ukraine... They lost the Baltic republics ... They lost Mexico"... Maybe even, "they lost Israel". Frankly I would prefer that the Republicans carried that end of empire can around their neck for all time and not the Democrats... as richly deserving as they might be. Four more years might just get it. It will be good for the world and even better for the USA... in the long run, but the voters won't like it one bit. So I hope for their sake, but especially for the sake of America's working people that the Dems lose this one.

    The reason being that sooner or later there is going to have be some serious social legislation passed in the USA: bread and butter stuff like free day care centers for single working mothers with tiny children and huge drug rehab programs to empty the prison system... stuff like that... Might have to sell Abu Dhabi a carrier battle group to pay for it all. The Republicans are never going to do any of those things and if the Democrats are left holding the bag for the collapse of America's empire, then those things are never going to get done... ever.

    So I'm rooting for crazy old John and the beautiful Sarah... they'll do fine for madly paddling as the canoe goes over the dam.

    I am sad to note that this old post of mine is aging so well. For me the saddest part of it was that many people at the time thought that my position was based on racial prejudice. On the contrary, I think that since whosoever is president at this time is almost sure to fail, that it is horribly, unspeakably, tragic that America's first African-American president be held responsible for something that has taken decades to produce... I would have preferred that such a president be the one to pick up the pieces of the disaster and take the credit for that.

    David Seaton at DagBlog

    Comments

    Yours was basically my father-in-law's view on this.  He is a lifelong liberal Democrat and a wonderful man who is dear to me.  He is 83 and retired, living in Connecticut now.

    I chose not to politely differ with him on which would be the preferable outcome.  BTW, he said he voted for Obama but said it might be better if the Dems lost this one, for similar reasons as yours. 

    Obviously I don't know how things look from Madrid.  My wife and I have two school-aged children.  We're dug in.  We need to see progress made on some of these problems right now if they are going to have a halfway decent future society to live in.  I don't feel I have the luxury of adopting the mindset that, well, maybe if we lose another one, the voters will (rationally) blame the Republicans and this--at last!  Eureka!--will permit the kinds of changes we've long needed! 

    John Lanchester, in his wonderful book IOU, which I'm now reading, maintains, in blowing up the foolishness of many economists that most people act rationally in their self-interest, that the most common mistake of very smart people is that they assume that other peoples' minds work in the same way that theirs do. 

    I think to hold the view that somehow, if things continued to blow up, but on McCain's instead of Obama's watch, the voters would draw what you see as the obvious, rational conclusions, your conclusions, is dubious at best.  

    At what point does a society begin to try to dig out and deal with its problems?  I'm imagining President McCain, wondering if, under that scenario we'd now be dealing with 3 wars (Iran, or maybe North Korea being added to the list) rather than 2, going on 1? 

    Was it foreordained, in September 2008, that we would not be making more progress in addressing major problems under an Obama Administration and Congress than we are?  In some important areas I could even entertain a case that we are moving backwards.  However, I find myself unable to envision a McCain Administration that would be doing better. 

    No matter how bad things seem, usually they could be (even) worse.  I would think that would be a conclusion you could embrace, David.

    So, I hear what you're saying.  I like you very much and think you're an excellent writer.  I just disagree with you rather strongly on this one when you opine that this piece from 2 years ago is holding up rather well.  I don't even agree that losing the House next month is a leadpipe cinch.

     


    "Vice President Sarah Palin assumed office today upon the death of President John McCain ..." Yeah, that would be so much better.


    YOU GOT THAT RIGHT DONAL. HAHAHAAH


    Under my way of thinking that would be wonderful!

    This is what I call my "inner Lenin", things have to really get bad, before they ever change meaningfully.


    Unfortunately that is far to often true, David.


    What makes you so sure the "meaningful" change, if it happens, will be in a better direction?  After all, in post WWI Germany, things got really, really bad.  I know from your writings you, unlike some others from the cafe and here, are not at all of the view that fascism is beyond the realm of possibility in the United States.


    I think in many ways fascism is already here, but anything American takes an indelibly American form.


    Actually, in no way is fascism already here. But it's fun to pretend.


    But Palin can't see Spain from her house, so you don't have to worry as much.


    Yeah well you were wrong about......one thing anyway(!!)...from here in Arizona it looks like the Mexican middle class went back home. To Mexico, with the wads of hard earned cash they always carried with them, leaving the retail, and the core housing sector, down in the dumps. The economy crashed worse here than south of the border, and our wonderful Governor is doing everything she can to make things even worse!

    But from our experience here, even 4 more years of recession may not crack the lock that the GOP/Fox News shysters have on voters of 'The Base'. They always find someone else to blame things on, or another war to start, and The Base always supports them.


    There is an old saying...most especially in AA, that sometimes you have to hit rock bottom and loose everything before you are willing to claw your way back up. This country has not hit rock bottom yet and needs to, I am afraid. We are still drinking from the bottle of unrestrained capitalism and still in denial about it. All the while telling ourselves "I can stop any time i want to. I just don't want to yet." And the democrats are acting like the enabling relative who constantly bails our sorry ass out of jail or picks us up from the cheesy bar when we are to drunk to walk straight.


    I think you understand what I'm trying to say. Cool


    I smoked for 10 years but quit in 7 days. I was working well logging rig in Saudia Arabia and forgot to bring my cigarettes with me. No one on the rig was a smoker and I was tied to the rig until the logging operation was finished. I asked the rig foreman to get a carton from my bunkroom and bring them back the next morning. I was stranded at the wellhole for 7 days straight with food and water being brought out to me every 12 hours. And to top it off, the camp moved 100 miles father away that week too. And I never got that carton of cigarettes either. Oh and that well logging rig could only roll at about 10 miles an hour so I couldn't make a quick trip to the camp either. Needless to say, after 7 days I didn't have a urge to smoke. That's what has to happen to the US...they're gonna have to find themselves between that rock and hard place with no easy way out before any change can take place.


    But isn't that always the case, David?  Every president inherits problems and many of those problems were inherited even by the previous officeholder.  Society moves slowly.  8 years is a short time.  To me it seems the worst stance we can take is "I don't want power now, the problems are just too much."


    Yes of course you are right, but what I think is happening is that the whole mess is coming to a head. Those of us living today are going to have to pay the Karma of many, many decades.


    So GDP would be down about 25%, we would have a couple of new wars in Iran and N.Korea, the bond markets would be in revolt, and the social safety net would be gutted.

    But at least it wouldn't be the Dems' fault!

    I'm sometimes tempted to think like that (and did think like that in 2004), but it's just wrongheaded when so many people stand to get harmed.


    it's just wrongheaded when so many people stand to get harmed. Obey


    ". . . but I cannot listen to music too often. It affects my nerves and makes me want to say sweet nothings and stroke the heads of men who live in a dirty hell and can still create such beauty. But these days you can't go around stroking people's heads lest your hand be bitten off. You have to smash them over the head—smash them without mercy—even though in theory we are against every form of oppression of mankind . . . ours is a hellish task."  Lenin

    That's why I call this way of thinking of mine my "inner Lenin"... I can see what is needed, but compassion gets in the way of following it to its final conclusion. What I'm afraid of is that the longer the crisis is put off the worse it is going to be and more the poeple that are going to get hurt. I wish I was as cold as is really needed to change things.


    I agree with American Dreamer, but  I understand your reasoning very well, David, because I've thought the same thing fleetingly about the upcoming elections: that perhaps we should let the cons take over and let them drive the country into the ground once and maybe for all.  But the closer the election gets, the more I realize I cannot let that happen without a fight. Despite the disappointment I feel about Obama, I know without a doubt that we would be worse off with Mccain/Palin than we are now, and that we would be in the depths of despair with an ultra-right Congress.  With that in mind, I am working for the re-election of my not-quite-a-blue-dog, but nevertheless middle-of-the-road Democratic senator. 

    P.S. I'm a/k/a FDRdog


    I know without a doubt that we would be worse off with Mccain/Palin than we are now, and that we would be in the depths of despair with an ultra-right Congress.

    That is the whole point really. It is especially sad that this happening to the first African-American president.


    No.

    This is just another version of "Things have to get worse before they get better." and it's as wrong now as it ever was.


    The latter day G.O.P does not "hold bags."  That is the alpha and omega of their political process.

    There is no disaster big enough to make them own what happens except one that ends the political process that permits them not to own what happens.

    So I am inclined to flip your theory around to state that it can become expedient to relinquish executive power to the opposition if such withdrawal allows a crime family to continue the same processes without interruption. But this dynamic requires no special calculation to be worked out before the die is cast. If the McCain/Palin ticket had won, this would have meant that they had four more years to continue without restraint.

    What is being measured is "us", not "them."

    

    Yes Moat. Look what the hell they did with the 9/1101 attack for chrissakes.

    They get no demerits. I mean this is so frustrating.

    Oh damn, i get so mad.

    It is a pretty day. The sky is cloudless and there is still sun this time of night.

    No wind. Beautiful time of year of here, which is strange, probably due to global warming.

    The corporate pigs are just better at propaganda than we are!!!

    the end


    The Democrats signed on to the invasion of Iraq. I agree with Gore Vidal, who said that there is only one political party in America, the party of property, with two right wings, the Democratic wing and the Republican wing.


    Gore Vidal.....speaketh the truth.


    I understand that perspective. It certainly explains the narrow avenue of what is called politically possible. But if that narrowness is a complete explanation of the evils of the system, what difference does it make if McCain or Obama is elected?

     


    "The Democrats signed on to the invasion of Iraq."

    This is stated over and over again by bloggers here and elsewhere, but it is false.

    In the House the 2002 Use of Force Resolution was defeated by a wide margin on the Democratic side of the aisle 126-82, while on the GOP side it passed, 215 -6. There may be only one party, but one wing of it has the demagogues selling fear and war, and only the GOP would run a manipulating, sociopath and liar like George W. Bush.


    I get the Foreign Policy piece; Obama's FPsucks; he got taken for a ride, and Bob Woodward's excuses reasons apologies don't matter a tinker's fart to me.  Obama's retreat from Constitutional directives also suck; his rendtitions suck...still, there are all the domestic issues, ...which sorta suck, but at least we haven't been sold down the river wholesale, as would have happened with McCain.

    Blame for Dems?  That's what matters to you?  So Democrats are more important to you, as in: viablility in the future.  I won't argue as much if that's your position, as it was for Zip.

    I can even sorta believe that a few Dem seats lost in Congess could act as wake-up call for the Prez and Congress, though I'm losing faith that that might be true.  Hou don't live here, so it may be easier for you to be philosophical.  But we still want out kids educated in free public schools, want our electrical coops to be forced into providing X% of their power from renewable sources, a few regulatory bodies to be funded, SS to not be fully privatized, etc.

    So all in all, I' freaking glad McCain wasn't elected, didn't die in some liason with a new Cosmic Honey, and haven't woken to find the Killa from Wasilla being sworn in as my Prez.

    And god as my witness, it's hard defending this Presidency.  When he was elected, it made me cry to watch our black son walk taller; now...he is bereft by his retreat for hope.


    maybe there should be a little walking tall for passing through one of the most ambitious legislative agenda in recent history.  Was it a total progressive victory?  No.  Maybe even a hell no.  But this isn't a progressive country so why should one expect a progressive agenda being passed? We were able to get a moderate black presidential candidate with the middle name Hussien elected president and this led people to believe the revolution would happen?  Go figure.


    We are simply destined to disagree forever on this, Camus.  He is of the generation he needed to keep; that is his biggest failure of all, IMO.  We can go figure all we want, but we have a Democratic President who doesn't adhere to many Democratic principles or the needs of the country.  And still expands the war, and still too many Dems give him a pass on assassinations and renditions and keeping so many Bush legacies in place.


    we can agree to disagree...

    but out of curiosity - if you were president, and the intelligence agency provided you evidence of an American citizen who was operating with forces that were actively developing an attack on US soil in a country that did not provide the opportunity for U.S. forces to intervene or was not willing to intervene on the U.S. behalf, what would you do?


    See now, camus; there's where things go immediately off the rails for me.  Something in your head causes you to ask the Most Extreme Question to defend a notion like torture or rendition for probable torture, or targeted assassination.  It's the Jack Bauer Question, and there are only two reasons I can think of that cause you to ask it.

    One, that your support of the President is so absolute that when I bring up assassinations, you have to find a convenient scenario to excuse it.  Two is that you are really that fearful of the havoc or death or devilment that 'Terrorist s'can inflict that you don't mind pre-emptive killing so much.

    Now for me, several things are different than what you describe as a neatly packaged Moral Dilemma.  One is that I no longer believe that the Intel world operates or reports without exteme bias.  (A big reason I'm skeptical about all the recent drone kills in Pakistan being the CIA and Special Ops people having it right, and targeting the right people to kill because they'd figured out beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was a plot to make multiple major hits in nations all over the planet.

    Now it may be so; but we've been fed boatloads of false intel for years, decades, much of which has been debunked decades later.  Ah, rats; we might say; another false flag report.  Shoot; too bad about that war and those 55,000 soldiers who died.  We won't be such dupes next time! 

    But we fell for it before both Iraq wars (and please don't say the first Gulf war was 'the good one').  I get that you might need to believe in honest intel-gathering.  But think about it: plenty of the intel operations have been outsourced to the same organizations who profit from Perpetual War.  So, moving on from accuracy and credibility of 'imminent danger' arguments, we move on to both Constitutional and ethical/moral considerations, which I think are completely intertwined here.

    I like to think that Obama believes he's a moral man; so let's say he is without me judging him.  The first time he ordered a Finding, he would have wrestled with it, yes?  Probably lost sleep, and had doubts haunting him.  But each time after that became easier: and the military and CIA and Special Ops reps (they meet with him in the Oval twice a week we're told; a new twist for a White House) applaud him, and let him know what a good thing he'd done.  And next they convince him to put drug dealers in Afghanistan on the target list, but hey; it takes two reliable sources fingering them to get on the list!  And now we're off to the races...it's just become easier to say, "This person is standing in the way of Our Mission, and dammit, we're gonna win this war, or this GWOT, or defend our freedoms, or impose democracy on this nation or that, or borrow their resources for our benefit"...like that.

    How can I avoid the hated phrase "slippery slope" here?  I can't.

    So no, camus; (I would never want to be, but...) were I the President, I would not order assassinations.  I would know in my heart that that's where we too frequently go wrong; assuming that we hold Right so firmly and undeniably that the ends justify the means (another abhorrent cliche; sorry). 

    It reminds me of the Quaker being asked, "But what about World War II?  What would you have done?"   After long consideration, the Quaker said, We wouldn't have been there; we would have been working forever to prevent a scenario like this."  I can see the short side of the answer, of course, but the long-view of it's right: I'd be working/we'd be working, to change our policy of Empire and strident interference globally, and actually work toward peace.   And especially I'd get us the hell out of Middle East and quit jack-booting all over the Muslim Holy Lands.

    Practical question for you: How many enemies who wish us harm do you think we create with each drone operation, especially, but not limited to, ones in which innocents are killed?

    (Forgive me for not proofing this.)


    I was hunting at the Seminal for a long piece on education Non-Reform I'd read, and found this opinion piece.  It concerns the circle logic of the administration (familiar from the preceding years?) that , "Sorry, you can't have your day in court to get of my assassination list, because the case would involve State Secrets."

    http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/73327


    That is an excellent response.


    I appreciate yuour approval, Lulu.


    Fucking awesome, dude! ;0)


    I live to awe you, man.  Glad to have obliged...


    I don't think that with a weak Republican president in the White House the Tea Party would have really gotten off the ground or if it had it would have directly torn the Republican party apart.


    Okay can we just agree that wanting some politician or party to win an election so things get worse in order to make up for the fact that we can't persuasively articulate our position is just freaking stupid.


    Odd, weird and politically just stupid.


    I think that things have gotten that bad, that paralyzed... somethings got to give... big time.


    When I participate in or observe exchanges such as the one in this thread, I am reminded of one of the most compelling and best-acted scenes I have ever seen in a movie.  It took place in "Reds", directed by Warren Beatty circa 1980. 

    In it, Diane Keaton--playing artist and radical activist Louise Bryant, takes Jack Nicholson-- playing her intermittent lover, the playwright Eugene O'Neill, who is also a friend of her primary lover, the even more radical writer and activist John Reed--out to the woodshed in O'Neill's NYC apartment. 

    Their exchange is remarkable to watch for, among things, its sheer emotional rawness, ferocity and power.  

    The movie, long, is worth watching for that scene alone.  Bryant at that point has had just a bit too much of O'Neill's belittling of his friend Reed's efforts to change the world.  It's a great scene partly because the acting is so good that you can observe both Bryant and O'Neill visibly hurting from the recognition that there is truth in the wounding charges being hurled by the other. 

    The emotional substance of that exchange is O'Neill determinedly asserting "No, we can't, we are hopelessly and completely screwed and anyone like Reed who thinks otherwise is a deluded fool, and hardly pure as the driven snow no matter how amiable and well--intentioned he appears on the outside" vs. Bryant asserting "so what entitles you to ridicule people who are trying to do something about the problems in the world from your armchair located inside of a bottle of hard liquor or whatever your preferred form of escape it?"

    Oh, there's plenty of intellectual overlay to the exchange.  But the argument is really more the result of clashing basic temperaments and dispositions towards life, complicated by those pesky human attachments that so deeply affect us, for better and for worse.


    Oh wow Dreamster, you have unleashed a flood of memories: I met my wife on the set of "Reds", we sang "The Internationale" together. We've been at it now for 30 years.


    I thought it was one of the very best movies among the hundreds I've seen, and deserved to win Best Picture.  But its topic was probably just too controversial even for Hollywood, which, thankfully, takes on many highly controversial topics and will become much less relevant to the extent it declines to do so. 


    Yes, Obama has turned Dems'  fate into his. He destroyed his ground org and left us with "dumb or dumber". McCain wouldn't have been politically adept enough to ride roughshod over a Dem congress - sadly Obama won't push back against a Republican minority. Not even on recess appointments - our judicial prospects are screwed. Obama thus Dems own it all now, that stinking carcass around their necks.


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