stillidealistic's picture

    Public Service

    By stillidealistic on Sun, 03/20/2011 - 7:01pm |

    Maybe in light of the uproar over the pay/retirement of public servants, we should institute a nationwide policy of ALL public servants being paid minimum wage, including ALL elected officials. Since the jobs they perform are so easy and unimportant. Imagine the money that could be saved!

    It is interesting to me that during the high times, no one wants these jobs. Many agencies have problems finding qualified applicants willing to work for the pay. But things get a little tough, and all of a sudden, they are gold-plated jobs, and the people who hold them are greedy scum suckers.

    The people who take them are generally willing to work for less now, in favor of a good retirement later. You can't just decide now, well, later isn't going to happen, either.

    Once again, this all happened because of Wall St. Fat Cats and the collapse of the housing market they caused, but they continue to get a free ride in spite of the fraud they perpetrated on the world, and the little guys get to bend over and get villainized.

    Comments

    Well said Stilli.

    by tmccarthy0 on Sun, 03/20/2011 - 7:29pm

    Works for me.


    by cmaukonen on Sun, 03/20/2011 - 8:23pm

    Seriously, you want the guy who is investigating crimes, saving your life after an accident,  putting out the fire in your house, or teaching your children to be the same one who is flipping your burgers or welcoming you to Walmart? That's what you get for minimum wage.

    I'd prefer to have ones that have secure lives, so they are concentrating at the task at hand instead of how to pay the electric bill, and who WANT to be there, not those who are there because they have no other choice.


    by stillidealistic on Sun, 03/20/2011 - 8:32pm

    They're running my state government. Well maybe they are payed more but they sure as hell don't have anything more on the ball.


    by cmaukonen on Sun, 03/20/2011 - 8:36pm

    And that guy with the billiard ball head they elected Governor. That guy's a real piece of work. I wouldn't want him to even be flipping my burgers.


    by cmaukonen on Sun, 03/20/2011 - 8:44pm

    Maybe in light of the uproar over the pay/retirement of public servants, we should institute a nationwide policy of ALL public servants being paid minimum wage, including ALL elected officials.

    Unfortunately, I suspect that many elected officials have a side gig that pays much better, if you get my grift drift.


    by Verified Atheist on Sun, 03/20/2011 - 9:22pm

    Hi Stilli!!

    Yeah, public employees are not paid more than regular (what does that mean? do we include minimum wage french fried peeps?) and yet they or many of them dedicate their lives to the youth, to the unresponsive, to the dredgs (?).....

    I am so angry at this, all of this.

    We should attack teachers and police and firefighters and....

    Oh well.

    Good post!!!

    (Oh and i still love Stilli, hahahahah)

     


    by Richard Day on Sun, 03/20/2011 - 10:21pm

    They say absence makes the heart grow fonder! It's been awhile since I've felt like blogging, but I'm getting my mojo back!


    by stillidealistic on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 1:41am

    Odd isn't it? during the Wisconsin ruckus it was clearly stated public employees accept lower salaries than their private employee counterparts with the difference used to beef up medical benefits and pensions. In other words, the total salary compensation is equal, just distributed differently. Also, since they receive "government pensions" they don't pay into social security...their "government pensions" are such the neither employee and State governments aren't required to pay into it. So if you cut their pensions, they don't have a social security check to fall back on.

    So my only suggestion would be for you to change ALL public servants to All duly elected public servants, officials and their entourage.

    The public servants are just that...indentured servants to the duly elected public servants, officials and their entourage so why punish them too?


    by Beetlejuice on Sun, 03/20/2011 - 11:33pm

    I'm really NOT suggesting they do that! Up to a point (and I don't know exactly where that is, but I know it isn't into the millions!) you get what you pay for. Do we REALLY want the people we entrust with our safety and our children's care to be those who have skill sets that you would find in minimum wage positions? I don't!

    Having Universal Health Care would help, then the states and municipalities wouldn't have to deal w/ the skyrocketing cost of health care. Then, if the bastards on Wall St. weren't so greedy, maybe states and municipalities pension funds wouldn't have lost their butts, and revenues to the states wouldn't have shrunk when all the jobs were lost, and we wouldn't be in this mess.

    But, no, it's easier to demonize public employees! And don't even get me started on the repubs efforts to bust the public employees unions, the last bastion of the middle class in America, so they can deprive the dems of the money they get for elections from the unions (while the repubs get theirs from the rich fat cats that caused the mess in the first place! grrrrrrr!)


    by stillidealistic on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 1:54am

    Then, if the bastards on Wall St. weren't so greedy, maybe states and municipalities pension funds wouldn't have lost their butts, and revenues to the states wouldn't have shrunk when all the jobs were lost, and we wouldn't be in this mess.

    The greedy bastards?

    WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY....AND HE IS US

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_(comic_strip

    THE EXPORTING OF JOBS KILLED US 

    If Americans keep buying cheap foreign goods, we'll have no safety net; whose going to pay for it


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 2:10am

    That's opening up a whole 'nuther can of worms. The realignment of global wealth was inevitable, and needs/needed to be done. It is wrong to think we could or even should live so much better than than the rest of the world. What I'm talking about is the GREED that caused Wall St. to manufacture phony financial products that nearly caused the collapse of the global financial situation, and is continuing to devastate the country.


    by stillidealistic on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 2:30am

    Tell that to the poor worker in the sweat shop, making tennis shoes so Americans can  have cheaper footwear?

    Americans trying to save a buck on shoes? Is there such a thing as petty greed? 

    Cutting off your nose to spite your face? American workers want to much money and benefits?

    Besides if a greedy person can rationalize they're helping the poor international worker, maybe that's the rationale that brought slavery to America,.... it was for their good, because it was so much better than where they lived before?  

    Only now the cost is reduced, the slaves can live at home and Dumb Americans will buy these slave goods anyways. 

    Sell it for a buck or two less, which is easy to do..... when you factor in NO Pensions, No SS withholding.  

    The ideal World of equality you seek, means Americans lose their pensions. The  equalization of the American worker, being forced to compete in a global economy, begging for the crumbs?

    They make a dollar a day and we want 100 dollars a day, how far down are you willing to go for  equalization?  

    WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES ....ESCAPED THAT SCENARIO, ....Why would/should we go back to colonialism? 

    It has nothing to do about whether we are better

    It is wrong to think we could or even should live so much better than than the rest of the world.

    It about being smarter and standing up to protect ourselves.


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 2:58am

    Have you ever eaten healthful whole-grain-like quinoa? Many nutritionists highly recommend it  And no, this isn't spam, the link is on topic to your comment and might make you think a bit on how the trade situation is no longer always as simple as you present.


    by artappraiser on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 5:45am

    Thank you for another insightful comment. (As a vegetarian, quinoa is an essential part of my diet.) Sometimes I hesitate to say anything knowing that my knowledge of world affairs pales in comparison to yours (and many here at dag†blog.)


    by Verified Atheist on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 7:29am

    Well shame on you, it is you and only you who is apparently depriving the poorest Bolivians of one of their cultural staples. And praise to you, it is apparently you who is helping Bolivia develop a successful market creating more jobs. Laughing


    by artappraiser on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 5:34pm

    Can we grow it here in the US?

    If so, we dont need to import it then.

    Can we manufacture products here at home, so we dont have to import products that undercut our workers?

    Some people would say NO we cant produce as cheaply as the foreign workers, then those same people cry loudly when the government cant pay for the safety net.

    When NAFTA was first introduced the American labor force wanted a level playing field, worker rights, clean air and water standards safe working conditions.  These safeguards were removed, business' didnt want to pay the costs.  They still dont want to pay for benefits.

    Then some people wonder why we are losing our benefits?

    Maybe quinoa can keep you warm, keep your kids in school, pay for your roads, pay for your medical care? What ever did the indigenous tribes of America do without it?

    Maybe we could trade Corn, wheat, soybeans for it? As long as it doesnt inflate the prices we pay for commodities we need, so we can survive.

    We are America, WE THE PEOPLE  in order to form a more perfect Union ......NEED TO CARE AND PROVIDE FIRST.... FOR AMERICANS.


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 10:56am

    You seem to be conflating reasonable worker (and/or environmental) protections with nativism. As you might guess, I'm in favor of the first, but I hate for it to be conflated with the latter. I don't think our rights and needs trump others' rights and needs. I do think that sweatshops are bad, and I don't like wasting energy on shipping goods needlessly, but I don't want to demonize the "other".


    by Verified Atheist on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 11:06am

    As long as Americans are blind to the reality, that corporations have no intention of paying YOU a livable wage with benefits. Not when they can find a cheaper labor commodity elsewhere and they can import, what YOU use to manufacture. They can import instead of paying you benefits.

    Define reasonable? Maybe your typical Corporate CEO understands reasonable?

    Define demonizing "other"  Who is the other?

    Is the other someone willing to work cheaper than you, the other knowing he's taking food from you, the other saying "its tough being you"?

    While you punish Americans, because you dont want to demonize the one cutting our throats sticking us in the back

    How nice of you Brutus?     Wink


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 4:51pm

    You're giving an excellent example of the conflating I was talking about.

    Yes, corporations are interested in sticking it to their workers, and off-shoring jobs is one way they do it.

    But, NO, NO, NO, it's not the fault of those they are off-shoring it too!

    Please, please, please don't confuse those two issues. You might as well blame a rape victim for what they chose to wear.


    by Verified Atheist on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 5:55pm

    No No No you missed the point entirely.

    You have misunderstood what I wrote.

    I do not intend to get drawn into arguing over words.

    Stop Exporting jobs and stop importing cheap foriegn goods, whose purpose is to undermine the American worker.


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 6:44pm

    Let me crystal clear about what wording I find objectionable:

    Is the other someone willing to work cheaper than you, the other knowing he's taking food from you, the other saying "its tough being you"?

    That's what I'm objecting to as blaming the victim. That's the conflating I'm talking about. The fact that I'm discussing the conflation should let you know that I agree with part of what you're saying but am objecting to the other part. The only thing we're disagreeing about is the other, not the corporation. Hence, there's no reason to argue about the motives of the corporations. We agree on that. I most emphatically do not agree with blaming the slave or sweat-shop employee for the actions of those corporations. I do agree with the actions of not supporting those corporations.


    by Verified Atheist on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 7:14pm

    I take it, you wouldnt like the term scab either?

    http://www.wisegeek.com/in-labor-terms-what-is-a-scab.htm

    Should you tell  the picket line..... "don't call them scabs; they're victims"


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 1:46am

    Can you not fathom the difference between a scab and someone in a third-world country being exploited by a multi-national corporation?

    Be mad at the corporation, not the exploited, and please, please, please never conflate the two again. They are as different as night and day.


    by Verified Atheist on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 5:44am

    You said:

    We are America, WE THE PEOPLE  in order to form a more perfect Union ......NEED TO CARE AND PROVIDE FIRST.... FOR AMERICANS.

    Seriously? And where in the Bible does it say that Americans come ahead of any other people?


    by stillidealistic on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 4:31pm

    I think Resistance is making an eminently reasonable point. The Bahrain government serves the interests of foreign bankers and Sunni immigrants rather than the native Shiite government. that strikes me as wrong. The US government has over the last ten years wittingly or unwittingly done much more to serve the interests of Chinese workers over the interests of US workers. That strikes me as wrong too. That isn't to say the US government should ignore the welfare of people across the globe, but their responsibility is first and foremost to care for its own population while governing in accordance with the values of that population - which involves inter alia respect for the rights of people everywhere.

    Does that sound so offensive to you?


    by Obey on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 4:41pm

    Do you put strangers ahead of your own family members?

    Do you say to your grandparents, sorry I have nothing left to give you I already gave to someone else,... a stranger.

    Sorry I bought cheap foreign goods, in order to help the stranger and his family and there is nothing left to support American families?

    Who did you expect was going to help American families while you were busy saving the world?

    Why is it you couldnt see your own family was suffering;  unless of course you have unlimited resources to care for.  Jan 5, 2011 ... The world's population will reach 7 billion people.

    Or is it you want me to foot the bill?

    If jobs dont come back to America.........,maybe you could help feed my familly and the rest of impoverished AMERICANS, before you tackle the Worlds problems?   


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 5:12pm

    Do you put strangers ahead of your own family members?

    Jesus did. I'm just sayin'…


    by Verified Atheist on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 7:15pm

    Really?

    He told you a stranger was more important than taking care of your own family members?

    He told you take from your own children and give it all away to a stranger?

    Nothing left for your offspring to inherit, because you gave it to a stranger instead?

    Take the wealth generated by blood and sweat, and give it away, take it from the future offspring (generations) of Americans to follow. 

    Don’t be blind guide, for if we listen to you, we will fall into the pit and who will save us. 

    Just YOUR saying.... doesn’t make it so;  maybe you could provide the scripture?

    For a certainty I know he only had a brief contact with the Samaritan woman, he also told his disciples to care for the Nation of Israel first…..  before venturing out into the Nations. 

    A Christian’s first obligation is to God and to the Congregation of fellow believers.

    Why should you be helping Baal, while your brother suffers?

    Do you find it hard to discern who is your brother?  

    We helped Osama and look how well it worked out for us; and the gratitude he displayed.

    Get real, Jesus never commanded anyone to forsake his or her families in favor of strangers. 

    Proverbs warns; …… be wary of the stranger,…… maybe you would give him yours and my outer garments too?

    Give him yours. But don’t come crying later, seeking pity about how you are bare, how you have nothing left.

    When you received your inheritance of a free America, but you thought it better to squander the opportunity to preserve it for future generations, giving it away to strangers instead?     


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 8:28pm

    Ever heard the camel through the eye of a needle one? Jesus tells damn near every single person who bothers to ask the best way to follow him to give up their earthly possessions. Disciple was never really a high-income gig - they were often summarily executed with no retirement or ANYTHING.


    by kgb999 on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 9:08pm

    WWJD is irrelevant to this discussion.

    Jesus didnt pick sides in the political debate.

    Use your common sense,  If America fails what then? 

    Ever hear of the words "Lord Lord didnt we do many powerful works in your name, and the lord said get away from me  I dont know you?

    The one world government you seek, comes about because Jesus destoys all other governments. We are never going to be a one world governement because of the money you give to relieve the poor.

    If the American middle class is destoyed, THERE WILL BE NO MONEY TO GIVE TO OTHERS.

    WE will be just as enslaved and impoverished, because you were to concerned about the Worlds poor.

    According to Still that would be to differential, favoring the American working class poor over another nations poor?

    A thief (Corporate control) broke into your HOME (America) and stole your dreams and possessions. ...What do you have to give now fools; you have nothing ?

    What is it you have against the American middle class worker? Does the term American disgust you so much?

    If your so concerend about all the despair in the World  YOU  Go sell all your belongings and move over amonst those you wish to serve,.be mother Theresa.

    Why do you live here? 

    Jesus never said we must become Monks. Sell all your belongings and be pious BROKE

    In his parable about the slaves and the talents, he praised  those who made increase for the king. Our King.

    If the American middle class is destroyed, good luck getting corporations and shareholders to pitch in.

    An American middle class to stupid to figure out how to preserve the Goose that lays the golden eggs......Man cannot live by bread alone,

    Id lke some butter please, maybe some pie? 

    Maybe a roof over my families head and would I be asking  too much for shoes or is that not pious enough? 

    Keep up this stupidity and its any wonder the elderly and the tea party are afraid.

    Not only will you TALK of selling all your belongings, you expect others to follow your foolish course, into poverty; because then and only then have you reached Sainthood?

    When Jesus said to the rich man, sell all your belongings and give to the poor; he wasnt telling his followers support those under a different rulership. 

    "Hey Jewish rich man, sell all your belongings and give it to a poor Roman, don't even consider you have a poor jewish brother."

    You figure a poor man is just a poor man?

    Do you have something against helping a poor American


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 11:52pm

    Wow. If WWJD is irrelevant ... maybe you shouldn't have challenged specifically that Jesus ever proposed people reduce their own circumstance to poverty by giving their possessions to the poor. Because he did. As that was the only point I really made a comment on, I'm sort of at a loss here.

    On the bright side, most of the old people and tea partiers already know this ... so I don't think you have to be too worried about me having freaked them out.


    by kgb999 on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 12:14am

    Jesus tells damn near every single person who bothers to ask the best way to follow him to give up their earthly possessions.

    Who wrote these words I quoted above?

    I am at a loss, did you sell all your belongings and became a minister?

    Upon Jesus's return,  he found some of his disciples went back to the trade of fishing. Boats and nets aren't free.     

    Paul supported his minstry with a tentmaking and repair business. Peter had a wfe to support  

    Doesn't sound like they sold EVERYTHING to follow Jesus?  

    The lesson was about priorities. Put the Kingdom first. Not put the poor first. 


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 12:44am

    Dude. The Bible reports Jesus offering the formulation on several different occasions. Pretty much every time the question is explicitly addressed. Not to every character in the Bible - to the ones that are mentioned as specifically asking in various contexts. I simply made factual note of it because you seemed misinformed regarding the Bible even saying it. And to reiterate, it's in there. And it's explicit. Why do you imagine priests believe Christ has commanded them to forgo earthly possessions?

    If you want to play man-of-God and interpret it to match your world view, more power to you - you certainly won't be the first or the last. I'm not debating you over the question if the disciples were hypocrites; that would be pointless on so many levels it likely proves quantum theory.


    by kgb999 on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 2:24am

    Really?

    Yes. Read Luke 8:19-21.

    Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

    He was clearly not showing his family favoritism.


    by Verified Atheist on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 5:49am

    I think you didn't read the article carefully with an open mind. It says stuff like this, among other many other things:

    “Before quinoa was at the price it is now, people went to Argentina and Chile to work,” said Miguel Choque Llanos, commercial director of the National Association of Quinoa Producers. Now, he said, rising quinoa prices have also encouraged city dwellers to return to their plots in the countryside during planting and harvest seasons.

    Try reading it crossing out wherever it says "Bolivia" and substituting "the U.S." Maybe that would help you see what I am trying to get you to look at and consider.

    BTW do you really want more jobs making tennis shoes in a factory for Americans? Do you really think that is what most Americans want long term, jobs making tennis shoes? Don't you think there is any American worker pride in making products that the whole world wants, like, for example in the past, farm machinery, rather than manufacturing for only Americans?


    by artappraiser on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 5:30pm

    Don't you think there is any American worker pride in making products that the whole world wants, like, for example in the past, farm machinery, rather than manufacturing for only Americans?


    What do we manufacture now?

    Not all of our children are capable of becoming scientists or mathematicians.
    Where do you suppose our kids that aren't so bright will go to work? Does flipping burgers instill pride?

    Would some of our American children,  like a job at a tennis shoe factory in the United States, so they could be productive citizens instead of begging for assistance? 

    I think our American children could do just as good a job making tennis shoes, shirts, clothing etc  as anyone in the world,..... just not as cheaply.

    Do you think there would be more pride AA, if our  handicapped, in our counry beg for assistance....at least they wouldnt have to say they work for NIKE?   

    What is the profit margin on a pair of tennis shoes?


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 6:18pm

    I for one would rather flip burgers than work on a line inspecting mass produced tennis shoes.

    Funny you should mention the latter example. I would also prefer my mentally disabled brother had a job in food service for which he trained at a techinical college, than assembling little plastic nozzles at Goodwill Industries which is what he does now. But the people at Goodwill are great, they make it fun for them and don't push them to be that productive, have lots of social activities. Because they aren't really in the business of making anything, and just grab whatever temporary contracts they can get to be able to train their charges (some, unlike my brother, so severely disabled that they really aren't that trainable).in something, anything. My parents purposely fought to get my brother in that food service program because they couldn't stand the idea of him working at a low level job at a factory like their own older siblings had to during the Depression.

    But most factory line work is very depressing , numbing, mindless work with no social interaction, and food preparation and service simply isn't as boring. Though I didn't flip burgers, I did it myself. Not to mention lots of mothers have done it for a lifetime. I thinik setting up salads for a restaurant, chopping the lettuce, arranging the other stuff on top is a lot more interesting work than punching holes over and over for eyelets on shoes. I watch the workers at McD's when I go there, they alternate between jobs-cashier, drive up window, assembly, cook. No one is stuck making just the french fries all day. I know my brother loves working in a kitchen, he still goes to a monthly "cooking class" for which he pays, and yes, they do the dishes, he likes that too. It is the variety of the jobs involved in a job that makes working bearable or fulfilling to most people, not assembly line work.

    Wages are the problem, not that we aren't mass producing wastebaskets, tennis shoes and socks. I don't really want to go back to the world where if we can't grow enough bananas for the population, then they are a luxury only for the rich to be eaten with a fork and knife.  East Germans lived that way in a closed planned economy, it was widely reported that they couldn't get enough bananas after the wall fell.


    by artappraiser on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 9:41pm

    I believe the opposite, I hated working in a greasy kitchen.

    Why do you assume that everyone will just love working in the kitchen and hate factory work?

    I don't see much future selling one another McD

    I'll gladly give you my Whopper for your taco? 

    We better bring back the assembly lines, then we can employ the machinists and other technical support, to keep the lines moving.

    With the factory pay as a machinist , I'll buy two whoppers with fries and a pair of American made tennis shoes. In my new car produced in America, sending my kids to college, not on burger wages but gool ol manfacturing assembly line work. As a machinist.  

    I hear Carls Junior has an expensive burger, do you think we'll be able to afford it slinging hash?

    Maybe we could if we sold Hash to one another?


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 12:24am

    You’re a good egg Stilli and I share all of the sentiments you present here. But this post has raised a dark image in my mind. During periods of chaos like urban riots or immediately after natural disasters, the looting of the last standing repositories of resources is a commonplace. Within limits we even suspend the normal rules of property ownership and allow such pillage without sanction. This attack on the few remaining examples of what was only yesterday the normal work environment – living wages, meaningful benefits and retirement security – this attack is beginning to look like desperation - frantic looting of what remains after some calamity.


    by LarryH on Sun, 03/20/2011 - 11:42pm

    I've been noticing that for a while now.


    by kgb999 on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 12:00am

    Since we're a family that retired after 30 years of state service and depend on our pension, we've been following what's going on closely, because if we are going to lose it, or even a moderate portion of it, we have plans to make.

    Back in the day, my husband's pay sucked in comparison to those of our friends and many family members, but we opted for early retirement and the security of a good pension and health benefits, rather than the larger pay and uncertain future. And on top of that, we actually lived below our means our whole working life, SAVED money along the way, and have managed to come away with a comfortable retirement. We actually had a number of people expressing their disdain for our decision at the time... Now, all of a sudden, as they watch their high flying jobs disappear (and they didn't bother to put any of the higher pay - and I mean a LOT higher - away for retirement) they're scared and we're the bad guys, thanks to the good ol' repubs stirring the pot of discontent with us instead of manning up and punishing the ones who caused the problem.


    by stillidealistic on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 1:26am

    Divide and Conquer


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 1:36am

    The whole mess in the heartland just has me sick at heart. Protect the very wealthy, and gut the middle class...you'd think the little guys could see it. I swear it's Stockholm Syndrome. I can't think of anything else that makes sense. How can sooooooo many regular old people fall for the notion that the wealthiest 1-2% of the people are the victims who need to be protected and middle class working stiffs are the bad guys?


    by stillidealistic on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 2:00am

    sooooooo many regular old people

    They hear and see the government coming for them.

    Notice even the Democrats keep saying the older generation has nothing to fear.....Divide and conquer?

    sooooooo many regular old people

    They dont believe it.

    NAFTA WAS SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS, AGAINST THE WILL OF THE WORKING CLASS.

    sooooooo many regular old people

    SEE THAT OUR GOVERNMENT SOLD US OUT. Now that same government that screwed the working class, is now trying to screw the retirees. 

    sooooooo many regular old people

     saying "KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY MONEY.... CROOKS

    Saying to the government  "Just because you sold out the younger generation and find yourself in trouble because of some idiotic scheme.....LEAVE US ALONE..... DONT TREAD ON ME. Get after that generation that thought globalization was the greatest thing and how it was supposed to be so rewarding."     


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 3:01am

    Globalization is painful, that's for sure, but it's the RIGHT thing to do. I hate to tell you this (since you apparently don't want to hear it) but we are NOT all that special. We have no God given RIGHT to more than the rest of the world has. We may have HAD more for a very long time, but now they want a standard of living closer to the one we have, and if they are willing to work for it, why shouldn't they?

    We need to get over ourselves and be better global neighbors. We can help elevate the rest of the world w/o having to go back to the dark ages ourselves. If it means a small decline in the obscene standard of living the wealthiest Americans enjoy, is that such a bad thing?


    by stillidealistic on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 4:48pm

    wealthiest Americans?

    They aren’t the ones making the sacrifice. 

    If Americans don't STOP THE EXPORTING AND IMPORTING OF GOODS, designed to undercut American workers making a decent livable wage, WE  will be in no position to be charitable to anyone needing help. We will be in the same despair, the rest of the world finds themselves in 

    That is why "WE THE PEOPLE"....... FORMED a better place  

    If you're into self-flagellation, quit punishing me, so you can form the world to your image. 

    Globalization is painful, that's for sure, but it's the RIGHT thing to do.

    WHO TOLD YOU ........GLOBALIZATION IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO? 

    GLOBAL MERCHANTS ????????

    You have been decieved

    "Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Do you think the planet would be better off with out America? Do you think your life would be better? 

    I know mine would be better without all this globalization deception.

    Tell me....... do you can you see... any negative impacts of globalization?  


    by Resistance on Mon, 03/21/2011 - 5:52pm

    For starters, this didn't start out as a post about globalization....somehow I let you get me off track, but to answer your question, yes, I obviously see the negative impacts of globalization. But can we save that discussion for a post on that subject, and stick with the topic of this post, which in case you've forgotten, is the public employees being blamed for the financial mess we find ourselves in today?


    by stillidealistic on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 4:10am

    Can you please explain specifically why "globalization" is the right thing to do? Why is it accepted as a given that I have to have less in order for people living in nations with ample resources of their very own to have more?

    The policy is destroying our employment opportunities, creating an economic refugee problem of epic proportions (why do you imagine "illegals" are flocking partake in our totally screwed economy?) and exists entirely to allow corporations who don't like the labor and environmental protections of the developed world continue to benefit from defacto slavery and environmental destruction long banned in civilized society. Then pay zero duties as they import and undercut local businesses by mere pennies to put even more Americans out of work. And THEN don't even pay any goddamn taxes so I've got to pay for the roads, ports and airfields they are using entirely free of charge for their own personal profit.

    Do you realize that they have to import almost every lick of food and almost all clothing into Honduras because our corporations cut a deal with the ruling families and we now take take everything they produce and ship it to out duty free? The citizens end up paying import taxes on everything and can barely survive. That's why the conditions were so ripe for Zelaya and why every Honduran family who isn't in the ruling caste has at least one member sending down money they earn in the states - to support a lifestyle you claim is being provided by globalization.

    That's the most perverse part of the lie; we aren't improving a damn thing. We are creating a tiny world of elites who take a cut for allowing corporations use their people as expendable cattle. When they get pressure in the Western media, some manager gets shitcanned (or executed in China) and they say "oh, we had no IDEA that was going on." and then it starts again. Fines are a small percentage of the profits they earn from pushing the edge.

    Fuck that. I'm not competing with slaves. If they want to compete, they should be on an even playing field. Same prevailing wage. Same enviornmental protections. Same tarrifs I'd have to pay to sell my equivalent widget in THEIR closed economy.

    I'm trying to back-off on the generation war thing, but it sounds like you are totally happy to leave me homeless as you enjoy a pension built up during that very long period when your generation HAD more. Gen X didn't enjoy quite as much of that "more" you seem to think all Americans were magically blessed with. We've been fucked over since Clinton. Interesting how it's the perfect time for economic equality once it takes it out of my pocket and doesn't impact you. Worst part is your willingness to screw me over doesn't even help the people you are fooled into thinking are somehow more important than your nation's own children.


    by kgb999 on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 3:03am

    You are putting a whole lot of words into my mouth! I don't think I said a thing about being willing to screw over you, or that it's a perfect time for economic equality, or that Americans were magically blessed with anything.

    I simply took exception to the notion that Americans "deserve" to have a standard of living so much higher than the rest of the world, after the thread got hijacked by Resistance.

    There are a whole lot of inequities in the world (and in this country) that need to be addressed. This was not a post designed to tackle that subject and I'm sorry I let it get off track.

    I did THIS post because I wanted to discuss the way public servants are being made the scape goat for our economic woes, and would like to get back to THAT subject.


    by stillidealistic on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 4:22am

    I didn’t highjack your post. So please don’t make me your scapegoat. 

    You took the thread off track, when YOU brought up the Bible.in response to my comment 

    "We are America, WE THE PEOPLE  in order to form a more perfect Union ......NEED TO CARE AND PROVIDE FIRST.... FOR AMERICANS."

    Seriously? And where in the Bible does it say that Americans come ahead of any other people?

    by stillidealistic 3/21/2011 - 3:31 pm (re: Resistance)

    I did THIS post because I wanted to discuss the way public servants are being made the scape goat for our economic woes, and would like to get back to THAT subject.

    I dont agree that Public sector employees are the scapegoat, they are now going to get the axe like the rest of the American worker force has, because there were some in America who couldnt see the value of protecing Americans "AHEAD OF ANY OTHER PEOPLE"

    Globalization killed the Unions, killed our financial security and by extension, killed the Public Sector Unions.  

    I disagree that Public Employees are the scapegoat.... Public employees or any other American worker who wasnt on the front lines fighting globalization, are now reaping what the rest of the working class have been receiving for a long time….. THE SHAFT,  beaten down, because Americans didn’t support Americans, they didnt want to put American workers"ahead of other people"  

    If you are a Public Employee and you’re driving an import;  YOU got exactly what you paid for.....If you're a Public worker buying foreign clothing, YOU got exactly what you paid for. 

    Globalizaion supporters, support the foreign worker, then wonder why average American workers can no longer pay taxes, in order to support Public Workers? Ignorance  

    You reaped what you sowed, YOU helped destroy your own financial security.  

    Globalization supporters… You put American manufacturers out of business and now the ex employees can no longer support Public Employees. 

    Globalization is not the scapegoat, IT IS the enemy of the American worker.......Unless you like cheap bananas Chimp Chump  

    The reason we have economic woes in America is because of ignorance. 

    The attack on the Public sector is a result, because we didnt resist Globalization and the subjugation of America, to serve the needs of the Merchant class.  

    Globalization supporters Telling us 

    Seriously? And where in the Bible does it say that Americans come ahead of any other people?.....by stillidealistic 3/21/2011 - 3:31 pm

    What? You didnt know WE the People of America, would reap what you sowed?


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 8:23am

    Pointing out that Americans don't occupy some special place in God's creation is not the same as supporting globalization. Recognizing that there are some things produced better overseas is not the same as supporting sweatshops and slave labor. Not all things are as black and white as you seem to want to make them. For the most part, we're all on the same side here. It's just that some of us recognize that the enemy aren't those being forced to work in sweatshops (who you accused of stealing food from our mouths) but rather are those employing them (which you correctly recognize as part of the problem–I just think it's worth pointing out that they are the primary problem). It's also valid to criticize those buying from sweatshops. Just please stop blaming the primary victims–those working in the sweatshops. American workers are victims, too, but I think it's a hard sell to declare them to be the primary sufferers.


    by Verified Atheist on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 8:57am

    Whatever VA

    Twist the whole conversation, make your point, argue over pettiness.


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 11:12am

    Some might consider it ironic that it seems I, the avowed atheist, has more compassion (and more understanding of Jesus' imperative to "Love thy neighbor") than you, the avowed Christian.

    Anyways, I'll address your issues (explicit and implicit) from the general to the specific.

    I suppose you think all criminals are victims too? … What is it, feel pity for the perpetrators and maybe just a smidgen for his victims?

    I have made no such claims here. I've said explicitly, and repeatedly, that I hold corporations responsible.

    Under your logic, "Why You poor soul, you the illegal are just a victim" Please take our jobs.

    I was mainly referring to sweatshops and literal slavery. Do you think those victims are also criminals?

    As you say, "under your logic", slaves being forced to work in third world countries are actually criminals, not victims.

    Tell that to the guy ( labor commodity) stealing across the southern border.

    OK, so, incorporating the "illegal" argument, I would say there is a sliding scale. They're more culpable than the sweatshop worker in a foreign country who is more culpable than the slave (who is not culpable at all, IMO). However, it's the corporation who is most culpable, followed by the consumers.

    and you sure can't blame the company owner trying to stay competitive, because he's a victim too

    There's some validity to that argument, but as I said in the preceding paragraph, I'd argue they are most culplable.

    and your all full of pity for the displaced American worker because he's a victim too

    Well, at least you seem to recognize that at some point before later dismissing it ("maybe just a smidgen for his victims").

    You then coming back time and again lecturing me  It is just wrong to blame the illegal, he;s just a victim.

    Just to be clear, my lecture was in response to yours, where you seemed to be imploring us to hate our neighbor.

    Stop for a moment and take a breath. Re-read what all you've posted here, and consider why you're feeling so angry. I'd say that deep down, you know what is right, and that's what is making you so angry.

    Again, we're in agreement that the corporations are wrong. Isn't that enough without requesting that we also hate illegals/sweatshop workers/slaves? (You may never use the word "hate", but that's definitely what is invoked by the phrasing of "stealing food from our mouths".)


    by Verified Atheist on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 11:44am

    VERIFIED CHILD, GROW UP

    Some might consider it ironic that it seems I, the avowed atheist, has more compassion

    It seems you're having an "I" problem?.. A another sign of your arrogant attitude?

    Again you just make things up, waiting in the weeds looking to pounce, taking things out of context, twisting words in order to give the appearance of your superioity.

    What starrted with my comment about having compassion and protecting Americans, turns into your rant about my lack of compassion.

    Attacking me, so you can appear so much more enlightened? 

    "Look everybody .... I ....Verified Athiest, have more compassion than Resistance"

    GROW UP 


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 2:12pm

    You've lost me. All I'm understanding from what you've written is that you're angry. What have I taken out of context? Please give me an example. One will do. That will at least help me understand why you're so angry.

    Peace be with you.


    by Verified Atheist on Tue, 03/22/2011 - 2:13pm

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