What do we know so far about Wisconsin

    Nothing about the actual votes but we know that most of those voting disapprove of recalls.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57447919-503544/early-wisconsin-recall-exit-polls-60-percent-say-recalls-are-only-for-official-misconduct/.

    Comments

    Here's another piece of data
     
    Wisconsin polls closed. We can share that our exit polls show dead-even race, 50% Walker, 50% Barrett. Follow our blog: nyti.ms/JKaKrv
     
    I've checked it out and it looks like they are going to do a professional job of what I was attempting here. That's where you should go.
     
     

    CNN just revised its exit poll results--now showing exit polls as 52/48 Walker.  Also reporting that Barrett's lead in Dane County (where Madison is) is less than the 70/30 that he needs there, and that Walker's lead in Waukesha County (a GOP stronghold just west of Milwaukee) is where it should be.


    NBC just called it for Walker.


    Just made the mistake of putting on Sean Hannity to see what Fox was reporting.  Hannity's take: "This is a big blow for unions. . .a big blow."  Deep breath, tomorrow is another day.


    The usual crowd of blogging depressants will be by soon to gloat  this is all Obama's fault.


     

    Ya know rmd, you're just a dick.


    No I'm THE DICK and I am depressed.


    Yeah, it sucks. I guess folks in Wisconsin really don't like recalls. Someone should make a note of that.


    You need to see my comments in the recent posts by doc cleveland and destor to understand what  my post was about.


    Estimated turnout 65%: so they actually they do like recalls - they just don't necessarily vote affirmative.


    Man up, it would have to be cold cold day in hell, for the Dick I know to become depressed.  

    It wont be long now;  and the Republicans will rue the day they slapped us around. 


    So you don't think the Obama-bashers will blame Obama?


    Why would they? Was he had the scene of the crime?


    It appears to be a Pavlovian response for them.


    Gotta keep on keepin on


    The struggle continues :)


    Recalling a sitting public official is very hard.  Americans are used to elections that occur on schedule and many have have an instinctive dislike of breaking the rules and holding special ones.


    Each generation has it's battle cry

    Remember the Alamo................................ Remember Wisconsin  

    February 23 – March 6, 1836)                     June  5  2012 


    Which would be one reason why not to go for the recall.  The unions are in a PR fight and this is a major blow for them.  Just because you can go for the recall doesn't mean you should have.  Especially when there wasn't the "obvious candidate" waiting in the wings.


    As per the article....60% of polled Wisconsin voters disliked the idea of a recall...
    So, this is making me wonder if maybe a portion of the people turning out to vote for Walker might have been casting a protest vote against the recall itself and not necessarily because they were pro/anti-union or pro/anti-progressive.

    Just thinking out loud.

    We'll see what happens when Walker is up for re-election and faces a stronger Dem like that Feingold fella mebbe.


    Casting a protest vote at the worst possible moment is too dysfunctional to even think about.  

    I guess I was wrong to have any hope about defeating the juggernaut of Republican thuggery.  Our side can't even see the sword that's cutting off their head.

     

     


    Wow...what a ground game that was played in Wisconsin.  Voter turnout broke all records. Sad part was some who support the president voted for Walker or against the recall by not granting victory.  

    I give the people who protested and fought Walker credit for changing the conversation and giving liberals back their voice.  This is also sheds light on the willingness of the ultra wealthy to spend large amounts of money to buy an election.  

    Walker could very well be invited to speak at Tampa this summer.  That will fire up the anger that liberals have about the recall loss. 

    It will take more than the loss in Wisconsin to beat down the liberals. 


    ....For all the ominous things this election said for labor movement and Dems, I don’t buy that this tells us a lot about President Obama’s fate in Wisconsin or across the country. Why? Look no further than the polls. Tonight’s exit polls showed that President Obama would win handily with this electorate. Indeed, all the polls leading up to this vote showed Walker winning by a solid margin and President Obama winning by an even solider margin....

    --Josh Marshall @ TPM,, June 5, 11:15pm


    Which is one of the things that I find so dis-heartening.  Not for Obama's re-election, but for Progressives in general.  We can't even hold our coalition together against a son-of-a-bitch schmuck like Walker.


    Democrats got outspent about 8 to 1 plus Walker had several months of propaganda before the Democrats could select a candidate.

    Walker's union ban has had a devastating effect on union membership over the past year. Destroy the unions, destroy funding for Democrats.

    40% of union members voted for Walker. I don't know if this was largely police and firemen who, as I understand it, were exempt from the union bashing efforts of Walker.

    Getting the Supremes to take another look at Citizens United given the Wild West scenario created by the Speech Now decision will be important.

    Do you want Romney choosing the next Justice?


    Apparently, most people had made up their minds for Walker before a Democratic candidate had been chosen.

    I would bet that 90% of those who will be voting for President in November have already made up their minds. For most here is a stark contrast between Obama and Romney. 10% of the voters are undecided. For most of the undecided voters, it won't matter because they live in solidly Blue or solidly Red states. The 10% of undecided voters living in about 8-10 Purple states will be deciding the election. The big ad money will poo into those states.

    Hopefully, there is enough time to mount a good pro-Democratic ground game to influence those critical undecided voters.


    The big ad money will poo into those states.

    I know this is a typo but it made me laugh out loud.


    Well that's easy:

    I hereby render unto Flower the Dayly Line of the Day Award for this here Dagblog Site; given to all of her from all of me!


    Jeez I can't even say that I was trying to spell "pour" and started to type "poor" instead.

    Ooops


    They are busy pooing on Florida right now.  2.5 million dollars a week just in Florida. lol 


    Walker's union ban has had a devastating effect on union membership over the past year. Destroy the unions, destroy funding for Democrats.

    NAFTA and such like trade deals approved by Democrats; helped kill the UNIONS 

    Obama's failure, to help the Homeowners get out of debt, helped destroy funding for the Democrats.

    Obama's failure, to appoint Federal judges, will help destroy the liberal movement.


    I kinda predicted your take on the vote.


    40% of union members voted for Walker.

    Well, now, if that doesn't sum up the crux of the matter.


    Among voters in unions households (public or not), 69 percent view these unions favorably.

    This kind of sums up the nature of the struggle for the pro-union forces.


    I think if liberals blame Citizen United on this result, thinking that if there wasn't Koch money persuasion, they would have won, they are in danger of fooling themselves.

    Before I elaborate, a little background. I was born in Milwaukee and lived there until I was 29. My long-time roommate, starting in college in Madison, and later in Milwaukee, and still a close friend, was from a small town family very prominently active in Democratic politics for decades; she works for the EEOC there now. My father, mostly a liberal Democrat, is retired from labor negotiation and personnel work for the city. My large extended family is white working class or middle class,from  Southwest side of Milwaukee and now all mostly moved to Waukesha county. I routinely traveled the state in my work in my late 20's.

    Plenty of people in Wisconsin have hated the teachers' unions for a very long time. Not all unions, but the teachers' unions. They do not see Teamsters and teachers as one and the same. Way before anyone knew of Scott Walker much less the Koch brothers.

    Similar to the way the liberal blogosphere rants now about 1% money controlling our politics, I have long heard rants from Wisconsites of all political persuasions about the teachers' unions (and wealthy trial lawyers) supposed strangehold on the Democratic party and ruining life as it should be. I have heard these rants for decades. The longtime fight in Milwaukee for school vouchers was all about the stranglehold of the evil teachers unions as far as many were concerned.

    Wisconsites overall are not classically liberal and have long made fun of the small liberal enclaves in the capital and university area of Madison and on the East Side of Milwaukee (hippies, yuppies and the rich limousine latte mansion dwellers.) They are largely independent swing voting types who prize their open primaries, and will vote for whoever might "get things done" at the time whether that be something liberal or  conservative. The state's  "progressive" reputation there is owing to the latter, a willingness to try new things according to populist desires of the time. Sometimes that might mean chasing commies out of the Federal government and Hollywood (Senator McCarthy,) sometimes that might mean being anti-pork spending and anti-war (Senators Proxmire & Feingold) but it is definitely not the same meaning as the term is used in the blogosphere.

    Yes, they also have a black/white racism problem and a stubborn segregation problem in the urban areas with white flight. The segregation and crime problems in the black community was often blamed on the teachers' unions. (IE, lazy public servants not doing their job raising good citizens.) This problem cannot be chucked up to color of skin alone, as per the willingness of many to vote for Obama.

    I think the Koch brothers targeted Wisconsin because they had paid for the studies to know it is longtime fertile ground, and you can not underestimate the long-time antipathy towards public employees' unions there, and more specifically, especially the teachers' unions. (Cops and firefighters are exempt, BTW. They are considered "Teamster"working class types.)

    When times are good in Wisconsin, the antipathy to non-police non-firefighter public employees dies down, but simmers below the surface. When times are bad there is resentment of all those lazy-no-good government desk jockeys with high falutin salary and benefits paid for by the hardworking taxpayers.


    P.S. Here on this thread in February, I suggested people read the comments to a Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel article to get a good idea of the strong opinions in Wisconsin about teachers and other public employees, many negative. My suggestion was greeted with a sort of censorship response, as if "out of sight, out of mind" would work for activism against Walker in Wisconsin.

    Also, I didn't think then and I still don't that going around poking people in the chest and asking "which side are you on?" is a smart way to persuade people who are on the fence to vote one way or another. Rather, it's a recipe for people to dig in their heels and solidify in opposition rather than being open to changing opinion some.  The "which side are you on?" thing is about when you are past negotiation and/or votes and have given up; if you do it before a vote, in the persuasion stage, you antagonize instead of persuade. The idea with a vote is to listen to concerns and address them in discussion/negotiation (instead of saying "censor those concerns!")

    Of course, one could also argue that all those anti-public-employee comments on the article I cited back then were astroturfers hired by the Journal-Sentinel and the Koch brothers. Denial is not a river in Egypt...


    This.. I agree completely.


    Second'd


    Well summed, Trope.

    I was pleased to see that in the last few days of the run-up to the most controversial and hard-fought electoral battle between Democrats and Republicans of this election year - and in fact, even on Election Day itself - you saw fit to come on here and nail Progressives for their "screw-ups" and the incredible hopelessness of them battling when they're clearly so marginalized. 

    It takes guts to do that. Boldness. You know, on the very day the Democrats fought and voted, to step up and dance beside the open grave. 

    I'm a bit different, I guess. I've made clear that I can see no option other than for people to vote for Obama this Fall. As have many other progressives, unhappy though they are.

    But for me, sorry, no, on Election Day, I won't be able to take to the airwaves to heckle the moderates/centrists/rightists if Obama and the Dems lose. I'll be in too much despair. 

    But you, well.... you're much bolder in how you treat your so-called allies. I mean, when push came to shove during this last day, you stuck to your priorities - beyond puny goals like party unity, you felt it was important to put the boot into some Progressive ass.

    And who else showed up to make bold pronouncements? Well, 1st off - and not at all unexpectedly - rmrd comes on to predict that Progressives here would clearly be using today to heckle Obama. Perhaps not noting that his ole buddy Trope was already engaged in... heckling Progressives. (And to add to the humour, when some fool came on and used the dread "dick" word - a word of surpassing political ferocity - ad on such a day - he appears to have gotten a week off!)

    ArtA showed as well, natch. With an analysis about how money didn't matter, it was all down to those deep-seated hatreds of the teachers unions. Which Trope then came back in to support. Perhaps surprising, given that he had been telling us for days that Wisconsin couldn't be won when facing a fight with such imbalances of money arrayed against us. Surprising unless you actually knew Trope, of course. In which case, you'd know he has never let the quality of an argument stand in the way of his real priorities - curb-stomping his political enemies.

    And who else showed up? TMac! Well hey, great to see you and all! Though I gotta ask, who's the new Queen of the Loyal Democrats now, I wonder? Because surely this sort of thing, coming from a Loyal Democrat, must signify your decision to free yourself those obviously too-tight bonds, am I right?

    Anyway... great to see you all so forthright today. 

    In sum, my views are that you're all behaving in a way which is -

    * Graceless.

    * Petty.

    * Vengeful.

    * And a really really terrible idea if one actually wishes to preach a gospel of party unity for this Fall.

    I swear to God, for all the blah-blah-blah you lot do about political strategy and party-building, you guys have not clue one.

    Not one.

    Political debate and battle and ass-kicking is one thing, and I don't take many prisoners when it comes to that. But this sort of stuff? Which is impossible to see as fuelled by anything other than resentment and personal pettiness? 

    Appalling.


    Wow, dude, am I up in your craw or what? 

    And immediately you jump in with the dancing on the grave bit.  So I take it when US soldiers started getting maimed and killed by the insurgents Iraq, and you pointed this out on some blog somewhere as evidence that maybe this wasn't a good idea to invade Iraq, you did so between bouts of rolling around on the floor in hysterical glee:

    Q: "More soldiers without arms and legs! Yeah! So many bodybags! Hooray!

    Using the war analogy (because everyone here knows I just take so much glee in all the wars going on in the world), I happen to view this Wisconsin event as one skirmish in a continuing struggle.  I have a perspective and an opinion about whether it should have been done and whether it was done correctly.  And right now, I'm just not going to link to the number of articles that brought up things like the conservatives getting more energized over this recall than the progressives.  Frankly you're not worth the effort. 

    Because when you look at your "little" rant, you don't actually address any of the points I have made - and I know you've seen them on the other threads.  So just going for the character assassination only shows that deep down you know I'm right.  Bawahahaha.

    If what you want from me is Rah Rah Rah crapola, you ain't going to get it.

    If you can't hear criticisms, maybe you shouldn't get on the internet.  Although there are some echo chambers out there I hear, so maybe these places can make you happy.  And should Obama lose - by all means come onto a political blog and offer your assessment as to where the strategists went wrong.  It doesn't you're dancing on the grave and heckling moderates, but just using it as learning moment. 

    Again, this is a political blog - not the Democratic Party blog, or some union blog, or even a specifically progressive or moderate blog.  It is a political blog.  And if I see something I believe creates a barrier to achieving the long-term objectives I'm going to point it out if the fancy hits me - regardless of whether that hurts your poor little feelings. 

    Dang man, cry me a freaking river.  You're just coming off as pathetic, really. 

    And I never said the money aligned against the progressives doomed it from the beginning.  It was just one factor from among many - such as I pointed out in this very blog thread, almost a third of the union households don't have a favorable opinion about unions.

    If one is inclined to use the money as excuse for the loss, such as Sleepin' would like to do, then one has to accept the fact one had to know if one had any intelligence that this was going to happen. 

    And, and this is the kicker, if you have a struggle ahead to win - having such money thrown against you means it is highly highly highly unlikely you going to get the undecideds or those who start off leaning in the other direction. 

    So I agree with the appraiser of art that take the money out of the equation, one would be fooling oneself that a victory would have been easy as pie.  Toss the money back into the equation and one would have had to run the perfect campaign to pull off the upset.

    And you jump on me about unity - where is such outrage toward those in Wisconsin who could get unified around a single candidate and gave Walker all that time in the lead up while the pro-recall force fought it amongst themselves.  Which kind of shows your principled stand for unity is just the thing you pulled out the air to come at me, trying to dislodge me from your craw. 

    So really take your accusations of resentment (I'm not sure what it is exactly that you believe I resent that would drive my words) and personal pettiness, and...well...ah forget it.  I have to go find the next progressive thing to heckle.

    la dee dah. la dee dah. la deeee dah.


    1. I like your war analogy. It fits you. Your election-day attacks and your day-after search for scapegoats is, in fact, just like those of a soldier. A soldier who goes into battle telling his mates they're doomed to defeat... and who starts pointing fingers at the others while the bodies are still warm. Like I say, you're just that kinda soldier.

    2. Your claim that Wisconsinites debating who should lead the recall justifies your own attack on unity is idiocy. It's the same as arguing that the Democratic Party spending any time choosing candidates through primaries somehow justifies anybody in the Party who wishes to split it. 

    3. If your aim is to generate support for President Obama, I would have to say I'm not sure you aren't doing the worst job that I've seen on the blogs in 4 years. That is, I find it almost impossible to believe that you aren't trying to drive people away. 

     


    1. you're like the guy who shows up from west point, tries to lead the guys on the their second tour and get fragged on day three.  I do think you might enjoy my fellow hecklers engaged in some heckling maneuvers in preparation for the warm weather wave of occupy demonstrations

    2. i am not making the claim their debating justifies my pwn attack on unity, first off, i say if you put unity above all else, which is what you are imply, then you need to attack the Wisconsinites.  Really try to have a little level of basic reading comprehension.  Or are you just trying to act like an idiot.  Moreover, I did not attack the unity.  You are claiming my criticisms are an attack - that does not make it a de facto attack on unity.  I believe we can debate strategy and still remain unifed.  Q is all for the group hug and never a discouraging word heard.  You're one step away from a fanatic.

    3. If what I say generates support, great.  If not, oh well.  I say what I believe needs to be said.  I am not an Obama operative, nor is my primary objective in life to get Obama elected.  And I don't think getting people to vote for Obama because i sugar coat something or get them all energized about some pie in the sky workers movement hitting the street is the way to go - they need to vote for him because it is the smart thing to do.    Tricking them or smoozing them will only have negative consequences down the road, undermining the long-term objectives. 

    4. Go Sonics, er, i mean Thunder.


    1. Trope. If you're going to aim for metaphors, do try to connect at least one thought to at least one other thought.

    Remember those dot to dot figures? Yeah. I'd recommend aiming to link up A to B, but hey - that's just me.

    2. Paragraphs which contain the phrase "Really try to have a little level of basic reading comprehension" make English teachers everywhere feel bad.

    Also, kittens.

    3. I was in no way implying that you were an Obama operative, and I apologize if it read that way. My bad.

    Rather, I was implying that - in terms of practical ends achieved - you might as well be a Romney operative.

    4. Go Celtics.


    I don't know if we are supposed to be communicating or not, but you did mention my name.

    When I see consistently see posts that attack Obama suggesting that there is no difference between Obama and Romney or that Romney won't be that bad, I get the impression that that might not be a true ally. You might disagree.

    I suggested that some would blame the failure on Obama and that has happened in this post as I expected..

    Most people have made up their minds. For some the drones are a bridge too far. They cannot cast a vote for Obama. I get that. Others may have other reasons for not voting for Obama. I understand that as well.

    Pretending that some wouldn't blame Obama for the Wisconsin loss was merely a statement of fact. Read the comments and you see that Obama is being blamed.

    Some of us are more concerned about the turn that the GOP has taken as the more urgent matter.

    I did not see my comment about some ready to lay blame on Obama for Scott Walker's victory as a vicious attack. I saw it as fact.


    You said:


    The usual crowd of blogging depressants will be by soon to gloat  this is all Obama's fault.


    Now:

    I did not see my comment about some ready to lay blame on Obama for Scott Walker's victory as a vicious attack. I saw it as fact.

    Your lame defense is that you stated 'facts'. It is a fact that you  referenced some here as belonging to a crowd of depressants.  You said you expected them to gloat about Walker's victory and gloat that Obama could be blamed. That is also a fact. You did not see your statement as a vicious attack. Neither do I. I see it as a snide, dickish way of saying tough shit, just don't blame my main man, to some people at a moment when they were expressing how very disappointed they were at the very recent news that some good people had lost a good fight. Nobody was gloating about anything Obama did, but more importantly did not, do.


    I am sorry that you are offended. If you read through the blog, you will find that Obama is being blamed (for what he didn't do).

    People are depressed after the Scott Walker victory. My post angers you. The blame Obama posts depress me. We obviously disagree with who caused what in the defeat. I think the money was the factor. Others have opine that anti-union sentiment and poor timing for trying to oust Walker were the core issues.

    The best that we can take from yesterday's vote is that the Democrats may be able to slow Walker's efforts if they have taken a one vote control of the state Senate. At least we can both be happy about that possiblity.

    You are free to criticize "My man Obama", but I should be able to make a counterpoint.

    If you go back through recent posts along the "Obama Bad-Obama Good" theme, you will note that some Obama supporters were called "unintelligent". I didn't think my use of the word "depressants" was out of line.

    Again, all I can say is that I'm sorry that you were offended.

    Let's hope that the Democrats have gained control of the Senate.

     


    Enlightenment or intellectual darkness; what side are you on?

    if you do it before a vote, in the persuasion stage, you antagonize instead of persuade.

    Exactly; Telling those who are enlightened; that the corporate/capitalist shill Obama, is the best path for the working class; is so in your face.

    Obama is not the best path for the working class and those who promote this idea are in a state of intellectual darkness. 

    Enlightenment or intellectual darkness; what side are you on?

    The Republican and Democratic parties are alike capitalist parties — .........., are equally corrupt and are one in their subservience to capital and

    their hostility to labor.

    "The very moment a workingman begins to do his own thinking he understands the paramount issue, parts company with the capitalist politician and falls in line with his own class on the political battlefield.

    Deny it as may the cunning capitalists who are clear-sighted enough to perceive it, or ignore it as may the torpid workers who are too blind and unthinking to see it, the struggle in which we are engaged today is a class struggle, and as the toiling millions come to see and understand it and rally to the political standard of their class, they will drive all capitalist parties of whatever name into the same party, and the class struggle will then be so clearly revealed that the hosts of labor will find their true place in the conflict and strike the united and decisive blow that will destroy slavery and achieve their full and final emancipation.

    Ignorance alone stands in the way of socialist success. The capitalist parties understand this and use their resources to prevent the workers from seeing the light.

    Intellectual darkness is essential to industrial slavery.

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs

    Capitalism doesn't care about your Universal Healthcare needs; it doesn't care if you have a roof over your head.

    It doesn't care if your wages don't keep up with inflation or that they are too low, to support your family  

    It doesn't care if you work 7/12's or that you never have time for your family.  

    Why does the working class support; capitalist candidates? 

    Why do you and TMC push these candidates, and tell us how they'll serve the working man?  

    A vote for Obama doesnt move us in the direction we need to go; I'm not so sure it even buys us time when one considers who Obama and the Democrats serve. 

    Obama wasn't in Wisconsin;  because he doesn't agree with the labor movements objectives. He doesn't concern himself with protecting any of the flanks.

    their hostility to labor.


    I might extend understanding (if not forgiveness ) to that worthless punk for going strategically MIA (sauce qui peu, eh). I will never forgive the "marching shoes" bullshit. That was a gratuitous shiv in the back.

    How true Jolly

    "I need your help," Obama said.

    http://news.yahoo.com/obama-tells-blacks-stop-complainin-fight-015928905.html

    "Getting help is a two way street; Mr. One Term President.

    "They marched, but where were you?" MIA


    Flavius notes in another blog post that the Democrats may gain a one vote control od the Wisconsin state Senate.


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