Donal's picture

    We Don't Need No Stinking Warrant



    Libertarian sites are abuzz about a video of police officers piling on to arrest some fellow accused by a neighbor of shooting his crossbow in his small yard. The video went viral, was taken down, then went even more viral. The guy may or may not be guilty, but the key exchange is between the various officers trying to bully the man's wife into letting them in to her home. I can't watch the video at work, but the article says that you can see that the couple have a Gadsden flag hanging in their house.

    During the final two minutes of the video, the sergeant, upon numerous refusals from the woman to allow them into her house, explains that they will go in regardless. He tells the woman that he will ask a judge for a warrant but that in the meantime, they will 'seize' the house, preventing the woman and her child from entering it. The sergeant explains that the initial call was about a bow and arrow. "That's a big piece of the puzzle right there, so that's part of the reason why we're gonna need to go inside your house. If you don't want to give consent for us to do that, then we will seize the house, have you and your son come out... That's just what I want you to understand. It's not like we're gonna have it forever, but we're gonna need to do our part of the investigation."
    "There's no reason to come into my house though. Nothing happened in my house!" Stephanie protests.
     
    The sergeant says "I guess if a judge... If a judge tells me that there's no reason to come into your house, then a judge won't. But until that time, we're gonna seize the house."
    Stephanie: "Well that's fine then you guys can bring a search warrant. You can't seize my house without a search warrant," the homeowner says.
    Sergeant: "Yes. yes we can,"
    Stephanie: "No you cannot".
    Sergeant: "We cannot search your house without a search warrant. We can seize your house while we're trying to get..
    Stephanie: "You can seize something I own?"
    Sergeant: "Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely."

    Coincidentally, the recent "good news" about declining crime stats has been supplanted in this news cycle by the bad news that more police are getting shot and killed while on duty. Many more have killed themselves in traffic accidents, but shootings of police are also back to where they were a few years ago.

    More Guns=Less Crime types took credit for the first set of stats, assuming that criminals are mostly rational actors that are going to give up crime rather than face armed citizens. I can't see how that claim fits with the news about police shootings, though. Police always have guns, and they know how to shoot back, but more and more punks are feeling lucky. Either that or they desperately want to stay out of prison. Since 1970, the US prison and jail population has gone from 338,000 to 2.3 million. More Prisoners=Less Crime, if you don't count what happens in prison.

    More Guns=More Shooting, too, as some armed citizens try to play lawman. I found this story, Customer fires shots at bank robber, on The Truth About Guns where editor Farago bemoans both the customer's lack of discretion and, well, accuracy.

    A bank customer tried to take matters into his own hands as he fired close to half a dozen shots at an armed robber who was fleeing from a Sheridan Drive bank he had just robbed this morning, Amherst police said.

    While police weren't commenting directly on the customer's actions — perhaps risking his life and others' by shooting at a fleeing armed robber — they did say that the customer has a valid pistol permit to carry the gun. No charges have been filed against the customer who fired the shots.

    The customer that couldn't shoot straight was, however cuffed and detained. I think he was lucky not to have been shot, or piled on, by responding police. Then again he wasn't using a crossbow.

    Comments

    Those police officers probably won't face any consequences for what they did.  It's sad, but there's no accountability.


    It's probably one of those bitter old school archers against crossbow proponents who made the call to the police--this is big deal in hunter world apparently:

    http://journalstar.com/news/state-and-regional/nebraska/article_e743ad56...

    More seriously, I found this Lincoln Journal Star report with police reaction and some intriguing details that the reporter did not follow up on to my satisfaction, see my bold:

    Police: Lincoln officers handled crossbow incident properly

    By ZACH PLUHACEK / Lincoln Journal Star, December 29, 2010 2:00 am

    [....]

    ....Grana met Officers Brian Hoefer and Bonnie Nichols outside his trailer and denied using a bow and arrow, a police report says. He had no bow and arrow at the time, the report says, but refused to give his name and pulled away when Hoefer grabbed his arm in an attempt to detain him.

    "Hoefer was concerned that if Grana was able to make it inside of the residence he might have access to weapons," the report says. "(Hoefer) yelled at Grana to stop, and then took him down on the front porch of the residence directly in front of the door."

    Hoefer, who is now on light duty, needed 10 stitches to close a 2-inch cut he suffered on his right hand during the scuffle, police say. Nichols was on active duty Tuesday, and no officers were suspended because of the incident, Police Officer Katie Flood said.

    [......]

    Police followed the arrest with a search of the mobile home that afternoon and found more than a dozen weapons, including knives, blow guns, throwing stars, arrows, three crossbows and a bow, according to a search warrant return filed in Lancaster County District Court.

    Stephanie Shaw, who shot the video, made an internal affairs inquiry, but said she'll discuss the issue with her attorney before pursuing it further, Peschong said.

    In the video, Shaw asks repeatedly what Grana has done wrong and why police took him down.

    Peschong said there is no internal investigation into the case, and he knew of no formal complaints against the department or the officers. After watching the footage, he said he didn't see any problems with the way officers handled the situation.

    Flood said LPD has gotten "a ton" of e-mails, and Beutler spokeswoman Diane Gonzolas said his office got four, all from southern states outside Nebraska.

    Prosecutors charged Grana with felony third-degree assault of an officer, and a judge set his bond at 10 percent of $50,000 the day after the incident. He was still in jail Tuesday afternoon.

    Police also cited Grana and Shaw on suspicion of misdemeanor child abuse. A 4-year-old girl was home at the time of the incident, Flood said, and the house was heated only by two space heaters. The only food inside, she said, was an uncooked bowl of rice, dried beans and leftover chicken bones. Police temporarily seized the mobile home as a crime scene, Peschong said. It since has been returned.

    The YouTube post is titled "Illegal Search," but Peschong said police got a warrant before searching the property.

    "This happens with quite regularity," he said. "The police didn't do an illegal search."

    [....]

    http://journalstar.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_6baa75d5-32b9...


    The big deal is that the officer was injured during the scuffle.  Doesn't matter if the scuffle only happened because the police decided to make an unnecssary arrest, if you injure a police officer you don't stand much of a chance in court.  This guy is screwed.  And it seems as if the police are closing ranks on this.  No suspensions, no investigations, nothing.  The victims here have no recourse. Suing the police would be pointless as the legal system gives them so much leeway.


    But they got a warrant after seizing the property. That is what has people's undies in a bunch. A lot of folk think they have more rights than they actually do, and when they find out the truth, they start complaining.

    For example, during Katrina, some natl guard officers seized citizen's weapons - white citizen's weapons. (There were probably more complaints about that than about the shootings of black citizens.) A lot of state laws have been passed and promises made by guardsmen that it won't happen again.

    That security guard that shot the husky almost got off scot free until people and groups started complaining.


    Yeah... of course, they seized the property because they deemed it was a crime scene.  It wouldn't do for them to go away, get a warrant and come back, would it?  All there evidence would get tampered with.

    What people don't understand is that once the police are involved, you kind of don't have any rights.  Not in the immediate circumstance, anwyay.  If they decide to arrest you, cite you, search you or detain you then it will happen.  If the cops are wrong, you might find that the prosecutor will drop the charges.  Or you might go to trial and win.  In circumstances where abuse is eggregious, you might be able to sue but even then you're likely just to get a settlement where nobody admits wrongdoing.  But there really are no rights in the moment, the best you can hope for is to be compensated later.


    The scenes you describe are shown on TV every day. Law & Order and The Closer and a dozen more dramas provide plots with pre warrant activity.

    Probable cause is in the eyes of the beholder. Proper concern over maintaining a crime scene is a regular concern of the police.

    Now the fellow with all the weapons and no food for the four year old concerns me; a lot.

    The only other random thoughts I have concern the exclusionary rule which is the only tool available for reining in the police; along with civil suits. Scalia has proposed dumping that rule many times over the decades.


    While living in Kentucky and working from 8PM to 4AM, I was pulled over in a  DUI trap.  I provided proper papers, etc., but was carrying expired Colorado plates.  Couldn't get KY plates because CO bank held title and would not provide title to KY until car loan paid off.  I was told to get out of my car, frisked and handcuffed.  Then taken to local county jail and locked in drunk tank.  My wife arrived 4 hours later to pay the bail for my release.  Needless to say, I was pissed.  Called a sheriff's deputy in another state to question the legality of what the deputy in KY had done.  Friend told me that most states allow an individual's detention  for 72 hours without charging you...It's called "suspicion."  So much for innocent until proven guilty!


    Chuck there are 72 hour rules and 24 hour rules that get complicated because they sometimes count business days so you would not wish to be picked up on a Thursday for instance.

    People generally do not give one damn about these practices, unless of course, they find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time or with the wrong clothes or with the wrong color or whatever.

    But damn, when they will not accept papers demonstrating ownership of your car.

    DAMN!


    Dick...

    This deputy was a local out of Paris, KY.  There were KY State Police assisiting the yokel.  When I was pushed into the back of the county car, one of the KHP officers caught my eye , rolled his eyes and shook his head.  What the hell are you gonna' do?  By the way, I "was" driving a late model Lincoln Continental.  I got a lot of attention from Kentuck's finest while driving in that state.  I will not expound upon my thoughts of "rednecks" at this time!

    chuck


    Didn't them Rockyfellers and that Trump fella have a place in Asspine Colorado? Those rich city slickers drive expensive cars like you don't they?


    You're right there, NCD.  Unless you were a crooked politician, a crooked county sheriff or a drug dealer, you gotta' be careful what you drive! Wink


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