Donal's picture

    Mild & Fair Weather Hybrids


    Honda Insight & Civic

    I bought Consumer Reports (CR) Annual Auto Issue last week. Given Verified Atheist's endorsement of his Civic Hybrid, I checked those out first. Honda is coming out with a new Civic line right about now, so there wasn't much data in the new vehicle reports. The reliability history for the Civbrid was generally excellent, mostly red circles. But for the electrical systems of the 2005, 2006, 2007 & 2009 models CR shows the dreaded black circles instead. 

    Honda is a great automaker, but their hybrids all feature Integrated Motor Assist, which may be a step up from Chevy's mild hybrids but is not as robust as parallel hybrids like the Prius. Milds do not have a large electric motor that can push the car. Instead, milds include some combo of battery and electric motor to run the lights and AC while the mild is stopped in traffic, and to restart the combustion engine imperceptibly when you step on the pedal. In short, a mild hybrid is an efficient and green vehicle for stop-and-go city driving, but not that special for highway driving. I use public transportation and my bicycle in the city, so virtually all my driving is on the highway.

    Honda's first Insight was as distinctive as the Prius, but IMO, suffered from poor acceleration and having only two seats. Honda took a lot of flak for the Accord Hybrid, which used the electric motor more to improve performance than efficiency. The Civic Hybrid has been as unobtrusive as the base Civic, which appeals to some people, but probably cost it some green sales. The newer Insight looked a lot like a Prius, but was still a mild, so I was a bit surprised to read Honda Insight sales surging in U.S. on Autoblog Green: 

    After two lackluster years, the second-generation Honda Insight is starting to see a surge in sales. Soaring gas prices, along with Honda's "The Really Big Thing" advertising campaign, boosted sales of the Insight to 2,782 units in March, a 62.2 percent increase compared to the same month last year. Furthermore, Ward's Auto points out that the "Insight's sales rise last month outpaced the 52.0 percent increase for the Toyota Prius."

    But that's large increase in a small market share.

    Although demand for the Insight is on the rise, the Prius remains the hybrid heavyweight, with sales hitting 42,779 units in the first quarter of 2011 versus only 6,058 for the Insight.

    Perhaps this comment by Sasparilla explains why Honda earned black circles for their hybrids' electrical reliability:

    Hopefully they have fixed their NiMH battery pack longevity issues, but since they didn't do that with the original Insight Hybrid, then the Civic Hybrid, then the 2nd Generation Civic Hybrid (multi-thousand dollar battery packs start "recalibrating" while you're driving as the packs loose their capacity) and the current Insight Hybrid pack is the same capacity as the Civic Hybrid's I would bet that it is not fixed.
    I would not be afraid of a new Insight, but I'd only plan on keeping it through about 60,000 miles and then sell it for sure. Keeping it beyond that and you have to start planning on the battery pack dying noticably, but slowly (and Honda not replacing it).
    If you want a hybrid through 100,000 miles or more go look at a Toyota or a Ford, their packs are big enough that they can manage them to last.
    Just my $0.02 as a 2nd Generation Civic Hybrid owner.

    Honda is coming out with a new Civbrid which will use lithium ion batteries, but I wonder if the mild strategy is harder on battery cycles than the full parallel engine.

    Autoblog Green also has a full review of the Insight.

    Those looking for an affordable Honda have three main choices: the Civic, Fit and Insight. What you should choose depends on your full spectrum of needs and wants. For those who rarely have to traverse bumpy roads, that takes one element out of the equation. If you regularly need to carry four people and two of them are over six feet tall, the Fit is the clear winner. The same is true if you are looking to maximize utility in a small package.
    Those purely interested in maximizing fuel efficiency or minimizing greenhouse gas emissions should go for the Insight. Over a week of driving around town and on freeways, we scored an impressive 43 mpg with the Insight compared to the 47 mpg we managed to squeeze out of the 2010 Toyota Prius. However, no matter how much you want to save fuel or protect the environment, for many of us, dollars and cents play a big part of the equation. Here's where things get a bit dicey. The Prius we drove came to over $30,000. Including delivery charge. This Insight comes to $22,010. That's a big difference, though you can get a Prius priced a lot closer to the Insight by choosing lower levels of equipment.
    The Insight's real internecine competitor, however, is the Fit. At just $17,820 out the door, a Fit Sport has a significant pricing advantage over its electrically assisted kin. The Fit Sport we reviewed last fall achieved 33 mpg, which nears a point where the diminishing returns of increased mileage kick in. If gas were $4/gallon, driving the Fit Sport some 12,000 miles per year would cost $1,452 versus $1,116 for the Insight. The difference of $336 per year in fuel cost would take over 12 years to cover the premium paid for the Insight. This won't matter to people who are more interested in reducing their carbon footprint than saving some greenbacks, but for the rest of us, the Insight's extra cost may not be manageable, especially in this economy.

    As art, one of the commenters noted: 

    i've said it once and i'll say it a hundred times: no one buys a dedicated hybrid model like this to save money. they are bought to save barrels of oil. they are bought by people that care more about the environment than their wallets. whether or not they are correct in their assumption, is another story altogether, but it's just not about money. another reason is they want people to KNOW they're saving barrels of oil for the world, not their pocketbook. that's why the Prius has done so well, and why, i suspect, this test notwithstanding, the Insight will do well too. they look different, they're seen as hybrids even by people that don't know a Civic from a Corolla. the Insight will go to people that don't care about the latest 'luxuries,' it will go to current Honda owners that love their light weight and econoclass trappings. the Prius could be sold for $40,000 and they would still sell as many as they do now because those owners appreciate the space age interior, the leather, the xenons etc. loaded Priuses are the norm.

    Image might explain that surge in Insight sales, but the price dropped a lot, too. Both CR and Edmunds calculate a five year cost for cars including fuel, insurance, repairs, etc. CR only gives away a few numbers for their "best value" cars, but Edmunds posts theirs for almost every car. I used their 2010 figures for consistency. The Insight became quite an inexpensive way to get into a hybrid, but I'm leery of the battery issue:

    Edmunds True Cost to Own®:

    $26,582 Insight (Mild Hybrid)   
    $26,853 Civic Sedan   
    $27,041 Yaris Hatchback   
    $27,374 Yaris Sedan   
    $27,986 Fit Hatchback   
    $28,423 Civic (Mild Hybrid)    
    $29,204 Prius (Hybrid)
    $29,736 Corolla Sedan 
    $30,985 Camry        
    $31,415 Fusion Sedan   
    $32,171 Escape SUV   
    $33,482 Camry Hybrid   
    $37,349 Fusion Hybrid   
    $39,711 Escape Hybrid  


    Nissan Leaf & Chevrolet Volt

    I wonder how far people will go to buy the Leaf and the Volt. Consumer Reports also featured a full test drive review of the Volt and a brief review of a borrowed Leaf. Both cars can achieve low cost-per-mile, but both are pricey and even worse, both fall short of the claimed range in cold weather. The Volt is supposed to get 40 or 50 miles of pure EV mode, but:

    We've been getting the low end of electric-only range, usually between 23 and 28 miles, undoubtedly due to this winter's deep freeze. The car's electric range is very susceptible to cold weather, primarily because the heater runs on electricity. ... Our engineers complained that the air from the heaters was tepid, leaving them uncomfortably cold.

    The Leaf also had range problems:

    We think the Leaf is great for short trips. But its range is often not what its gauge might indicate. One staffer found that the range was rapidly reduced from 36 miles [as displayed] to barely 19 one frigid morning. Nissan claims the range on a full charge is 100 miles, but during a long cold snap we averaged just 65 miles. ... Our initial take is that the Leaf is a fun urban car that works best as a second or third vehicle in a temperate climate.

    I've read similar reports elsewhere. To make things worse, Autoblog Green reports that:

    On Monday, Japanese automaker Nissan acknowledged that it would investigate complaints that some [5300] Leafs randomly don't start, a problem caused by the vehicle's air conditioning system. The issue was reported in both the U.S. and Japan.

    Growing pains are to be expected, but that doesn't help to win the PR battle.

    Topics: 

    Comments

    Why use a July 2009 car review for the Insight? AutoBlog put a newer one out on Dec 1st, 2010 entitled, "Honda Insight gets much cheaper base model, new features for 2011."

    The new base model charge is $18,200 by the way, almost $4,000 lower than the story you quote. I'm sure there's a new Fit price too, but any price gap is certainly less than $4,200 now.


    That's not a review, just an article, and it does sound cheaper, but not in a good way:

    The slow-selling Honda Insight hasn't exactly stolen any of the Toyota Prius' thunder since its introduction last year, and with new green cars like the Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf ready to join the battle, the future of Honda's hybrid hatch doesn't look too bright. Still, the Japanese automaker has given the Insight a host of improvements for the 2011 model year, including a new base model that retails for $18,950 (including the $750 destination charge).

    So, what do you lose gain with the base Insight? For starters, a downgraded stereo system is on hand, with a single CD player and two – yes, two – speakers. Audiophiles need not apply. Remote entry is standard on the base Insight, but if you want amenities like cruise control, a USB audio interface, center armrest and floor mats, you'll need to opt for the mid-grade LX trim. In other words, the new price leader is something of a municipal and fleet special. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the pricier EX now comes standard with steering wheel-mounted audio controls and can be optioned with navigation.

    An article from Feb 2010 claims, Honda: Insight "too small" and likely to miss sales targets, Fit Hybrid a 'struggle' and raises doubts that a Fit hybrid would be competitive:

    Honda Executive Vice President Koichi Kondo doesn't seem to think that the automaker will hit its worldwide sales goal of 200,000 Insight hybrids in its first year on the market. Why? In an interview with Bloomberg, Kondo is quoted as saying "I think we compromised too much on size in pursuing fuel efficiency" for the U.S. market, he said.

    In total, Honda sold 130,445 units of its Insight worldwide in 2009. The car was first introduced in Japan in February and then in the U.S. in March. In the States, the car's second-largest market, Honda sold just 20,572 units in 2009 – a far cry from the 90,000 it hoped to sell here in the first year.

    Further, in reference to the long-expected Honda Fit Hybrid, Kondo said:

        There are plenty of people who think that the current Fit meets their needs already [when it comes to fuel efficiency]... a hybrid version might seem expensive. Our engineers are really struggling.

    It remains to be seen whether the upcoming CR-Z can bolster Honda's sketchy hybrid positioning.

    According to the most recent article, Insights do seem to be selling better at the lower price point.

    The prices they quoted in the review were not base model prices, they included options as driven.


    Donal, I'm not defending the Insight. I'm not that impressed. But you spelled out a long argument - as you have before - that the cost of a hybrid is too much to pay for itself in any sensible timeframe. That's why you went down into blog comments, to pull up reinforcement for that. All I did was say, let's make sure to use their latest price. And as I have said before, Iraq often the case thata the extras and options makers are putting on the hybrids are what's driving the price gap up. The Insight is just an example of that. It's a hybrid, it'll probably get you over 40 mpg, and its base price is well under $20,000. I probably wouldn't by one, but no, it's hybridization isn't making it too expensive to own. Which is also why (and how) both Honda and Toyota can make the moves they are, hybridizing many, perhaps most, of their models.

    I never said hybrids were too expensive to own, but prospective buyers should realize that most of them take a long time to pay for themselves. Also, there is some risk to investing in new technology, as Sasparilla and all those new Leaf owners discovered. Toyota's hybrid engine seems proven, but I'm not feeling good about Honda's mild tech right now.


    The hardest part on any battery is the start up regardless of what type a battery or motor is being used. That is when the most current is drawn from the battery.  The use of supercapacitors in hybrids is being tested.

    They can give gobs of current and suffer no ill effects.  But you simply cannot just parallel them with the battery pack because on charging, they also draw a great deal of current there by negating any benefits. You have to have additional control circuitry to control the charge when cruising.


    Latest Comments