dagblog - Comments for "Longing for the End of the World"

Sorry to replay to this so

Doctor Cleveland — Fri, 03 Jun 2011 00:26:00 +0000

In reply to Doc, as a non-Christian, I

Sorry to replay to this so late; I posted while traveling.

Actually, it is not true that all Christians everywhere have believed that non-Christians cannot be saved (although I will not excuse the bigotry of many Christians over the millennia). And it is certainly not a recent idea. One of the Church Fathers, Origen, taught in the 2nd century CE that a loving and omnipotent God would ultimately save everyone, including the fallen angels. In Origen's theology, history does not end with the casting of the damned into Hell, but with Satan's repentance.

In more recent history, there have long been various Christian doctrines outlining the ways in which just and good-willed non-Christians can be saved. Some of those doctrines were outlined, with cartoon illustrations, in the ultra-conservative Baltimore Catechism my ultra-conservative parish visited upon us in my childhood. Believe me, there is not a single idea in that book that dates from after 1960, or really much after 1860. But it was clear that the salvation of non-Christians was expected. (C. S. Lewis's theologically retrograde Narnia books likewise illustrate this idea for small children, specifically implying the salvation of good-hearted Muslims.)

Nor does Camping limit the damned to non-Christians. Like certain strands of Christian belief, but more so, he believes that the majority of Christians will be damned. And he's not just talking about hypocrites and closet atheists. He believes that most good, sincere, and benevolent Christians will be damned to hell forever, by the God they love and worship, because they don't happen to be exactly the sub-sub-sub-sub-type of Christian that Camping is.

And the Rapture idea, the notion that God's special favorites get a free pass to skip the end of the world, is a very new and deeply suspect idea. That it's caught on with Tim LaHaye's vast readership doesn't make it old, or orthodox, let alone a good example of Christian charity.

I don't follow Paul so I

moat — Sat, 28 May 2011 00:55:14 +0000

In reply to Longing for the End of the World

I don't follow Paul so I won't enumerate the many ways one could argue against indulging in the desire to know the date "when the world ends" within the established tradition.

What I have learned in the call to practice something new is that I know very little.

The most compelling aspect of the end of days idea for me is how it makes the problem of evil a matter of time itself. It is odd how something that was designed to inculcate humility has given rise to so much arrogance. Or even. Your results may vary.

The same major changes have

rmrd0000 — Fri, 27 May 2011 14:40:27 +0000

In reply to Doc, as a non-Christian, I

The same major changes have happened with Civil Rights, women's rights and even more recently Gay rights. The change should be acknowledged and celebrated. Obviously not everyone shares in the enlightenment. There is alaways a tribal tendency to vew the "other" is subhuman because it raises your status within the tribe, especially a tribe of the uninformed and rigid.

If someone in Camping's group pointed out Camping's past end of the world error, that person would immediatley nobe a longer trusted member of Camping's group. There will still be people who will be following the false prophet on October 21st, but importantly, the overwhelming majoriy of Christians won't.

Doc, as a non-Christian, I

Michael Wolraich — Fri, 27 May 2011 14:16:16 +0000

In reply to Longing for the End of the World

Doc, as a non-Christian, I have a little trouble with the parsing of VIP versus Big Tent Christians. While today's popular conception of the Rapture may be a relatively new one, it seems to me that Christianity has always been a VIP religion, body and soul. From the very beginning, faith in Jesus has been a requirement for salvation . Under the reign of the Catholic Church, excommunication was one of the greatest penalties. Luther and Calvin created new VIP clubs in the 1500s, spawning a century of war, and the religion continues to splinter into holier-than-thou sects.

It's only in the past half-century that your Big Tent notion of non-Christian salvation has become popular. I welcome it, but I suspect that Harold Camping's nutty rapture prophesy is much more typical of the 2,000 year-old Christian tradition than your tolerant ideology.

So I am sorry, but I give no

Resistance — Fri, 27 May 2011 13:18:10 +0000

In reply to I have to say this every

So I am sorry, but I give no credence whatsoever to those who claim special knowledge of omens.

Maybe you could explain “what special knowledge" is”

Most people don’t know the “accurate knowledge”

Remember the scripture that goes like this

“This means everlasting life, those taking in ACCURATE knowledge of you, the only true god, and of the one you sent forth”

Even the disciples with Jesus on the Mount, asked “WHEN will be the conclusion of the system of things?”

He told them what signs (omens?), to look for. And when you see these signs act upon the information you were given. another scripture says when you see thse signs “Lift up your heads for your deliverance is near”

Get up you downtodden, come out of your funk, come out of your hoprless despair.reinvigorate yourselves. you are not beaten yet.

I could relate many more examples, not because I have some “special knowledge”.

I can do so, because I seek ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE, “ask and you shall receive” or this scripture “ask anything in my name and my father will hear you”

"Come take lifes water free"

With this ACCURATE knowledge I become prepared to “RUN THE RACE”, I can see “the road that is narrow; leading to everlasting life and the few who find it, while broad and spacious is the road to death.

Not a special knowledge, just accurate knowledge.

I can be a special as Abel, who came and offered the best things, as a gift offering, and was approved by god. Giving my best “Loving my God with my whole heart, my whole mind, my whole soul”

The reward…. a relationship with the Most high of the Universe

That does not mean I escape trials or tribulation. I am reminded “The student is not greater than the teacher” or “The servant is not greater than the master” “They persecuted me they’ll persecute you”

Modern day Christians still have to contend with the lion

For the “Lion roams about; looking to devour someone” it means he’s looking for loyal servants. The rest he’s viewed as already dead.

When we don’t keep the day of reckoning on our minds, that’s when we succumb, thinking we have time, when in reality we may be out of time, we have become to lax. We left the race or we become to weighed down.

Try preaching the love of Christ in a time of WAR, and you’ll begin to understand what the apostles went through and concluded " For a certainty …….nothing will separate the love”

Unprepared, to tired, to easy to say we can put off doing the work, the Apostles might have given up. If they had been convinced there was no URGENCY The enemy convincing his prey, there is no end, you don’t need to look for signs, you have time to focus on another road.

Yeah! the other road that is spacious and full, leading to death. Didn’t you see the sign?

If I look for signs, portents, omens it is hardly my interpretation that brings me harm, the harm comes from being inattentive.

The servant saying, “The master returns, and I’m off doing other things.” Why didn’t someone alert me?

“Stay awake, for you do not know…… It will come as a thief in the night”.

It is the relationship that is “special” and all because of ACCURATE knowledge.

Although the folks who

Elusive Trope — Fri, 27 May 2011 12:58:20 +0000

In reply to Longing for the End of the World

Although the folks who actually believed that the world was coming to an end were a tiny group, there is a rather sizeable group out there who propelled the Left Behind series of novels to #1 bestsellers. I live in a community where these latter group of people make a good portion of the population. A lot of the jokes directed at the small group of people who actually thought it was going to happen were really being directed at all those people who think that indeed there will be a rapture someday. In part because that belieft in one's specialness spills over into how they interact in the social and work spheres with the ones who are seen as the left behinders (if there is such a term). It can be very annoying and frustrating, especially when is in no position to tell them how one really feels about their attitudes. So having the fanatics one can joke about was a way to let off some built up steam.

There are many Christians

rmrd0000 — Fri, 27 May 2011 12:25:48 +0000

In reply to Longing for the End of the World

There are many Christians working to deliver aid and comfort to flood and hurricane victims. The stories of those Christians will not be given the prominence of the story of the nutjob who repeatedly predicts the end of the world and is repeatedly found to be wrong.

The public perception of Christians aided by a bias in press coverage of the actions of Christians becomes the image of the nutjob.

I have to say this every

Richard Day — Fri, 27 May 2011 05:38:38 +0000

In reply to Longing for the End of the World

I have to say this every single time I come across the subject.

Just for my own mental health.

I have heard those who claim omens are telling me it is the end of the world every single waking hour of my existence on this planet.

I worked in the education library at the University of Minnesota for six years for a buck an hour.

And prior to these tech scanners, we would have to sit and look at all books going out of the library.

So naturally I read every single New Yorker cartoon from the 1930's and one of my favorites was the guy in robes carrying the sign that said:

THE END IS NEAR.

Now I am an old man. I have bouts of the gout, bouts of the flu, bouts of the undiagnosed....

And when I am amidst these terrible plagues upon my individual being I am sure i am about to die.

I know it!

The atom bomb was going to kill me, the Asian flu was going to kill me, the smog was going to kill me....

And my mums who is still alive today, with all of the whiskey she drank and all of the cigs she smoked....

But I KNOW I am going to die every single time i am sick. ahahhhahahahahaha

So I am sorry, but I give no credence whatsoever to those who claim special knowledge of omens.

the end