dagblog - Comments for "Mad Men"

I read the article.

AmericanDreamer — Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:04:41 +0000

In reply to Since Mad Men is one of the

I read the article. Predictably, it was well-written. I was left wondering if the author, a man of my age, has managed to draw out women who were in the workplace during the mid-1960's to the point where they would talk to him more openly about their experiences. I'm not willing to concede, without having done that myself, that the basic portrait of that type of workplace in the show is seriously off the mark, in the sense that that kind of stuff didn't really happen. He seems a bit blithely dismissive that it could have been that bad. The sexism does hit you over the head with a sledgehammer because it is so rampant and omnipresent, but that I take as dramatic license, and different from saying that stuff didn't happen.

Otherwise I have not, unlike the author of the article you linked to, perceived the scriptwriters as adopting a stance of moral superiority for today over then. The extent of smoking and (open morning and afternoon workplace) drinking I don't feel is portrayed in a moralistic way, just as reflecting a difference between now and then.

I do find it almost impossible to like any of the characters, except Peggy, consistently. If they do something you think shows some hope for them on one episode, not to worry, they'll act like a scoundrel in the next one, or even later in the same episode. I haven't taken the show's writers to be trying to make an argument that people then were as a rule just more depraved generally (apart from the male to female sexism, arguably). Mostly they seem to want to just have fun with the show. One could, as I am inclined to, interpret the uses of booze, smoking and sex not as indicative of hypocrisy but of a sly, ironic, un-self-serious stance.

Oh BTW thank you for the kind

AmericanDreamer — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:26:51 +0000

In reply to Love the show. Am in love

Oh BTW thank you for the kind words, cho. I did not realize you are obey but got that on reading another thread. I certainly noted obey's absence of late. My main reaction on reading a bunch of your comments lately was that I thought you were right on on all the economic policy stuff. That was one hint I missed. I'm a bit slow on the uptake sometimes. But then you know that.

Am sorry to read that you are, or may be, taking another dag vacation. Goodness knows I took a few at the cafe in lieu of writing something I thought I'd later regret and want to somehow take back. We do what we feel we need to do--if we can. Know you are missed when you're away.

Thanks for your comments and

AmericanDreamer — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 14:55:19 +0000

In reply to Since Mad Men is one of the

Thanks for your comments and the link, which I'll check out.

The strangest part for me was the way Peggy's pregnancy by Pete was handled. It was as though no one noticed, at work or at home. With the weight gain, wouldn't co-workers and her mother and sister have wondered, maybe inquired if she was pregnant? Or are we supposed to get from that Peggy's extreme social isolation in the workplace, perhaps on account of her unconventional outlook and ambitions? She also seemed surprisingly unconflicted on giving the baby up for adoption.

I don't get that Betty Draper is a dim bulb particularly. She shows herself to be very capable, very sharp when she takes on some tasks outside the house. I am left to wonder if she is someone who might have been a happier person had she decided not to have children. For someone of her background and appearance that would have been a heavily disapproved decision to have made at that time.

Since Mad Men is one of the

brewmn — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 04:19:27 +0000

In reply to Mad Men

Since Mad Men is one of the few serial dramas that both my wife and I can enjoy, I've seen every episode to date. I find the show very compelling, almost as much for what it does poorly as what it does right. The biggest problem I have with the show is that the characters behave according to the dictates of the plot, and never behave as characters. A quick example is when the Drapers are flown to Rome by Conrad Hilton. Betty, who comes off as a bit of a dim bulb raised in a stereotypical 1950's upper-middle-class household, presumably equipped to be either a chorus girl or a secretary before she snags a rich man to marry, suddenly breaks out in flawless Italian. Um, no.

It's interesting to compare MM with The Sopranos, which Matt Weiner also wrote and produced. What made the Sopranos one of the greatest achievements in American dramatic history was that its characters almost never struck a false note. I really did feel like I was sitting at the breakfast bar with Tony and Meadow, or was stranded in Pine Barrens with Paulie and Christopher.

Also, the timeline doesn't work. Don somehow goes from being a used-car salesman after the Korean War to the creative director of a Madison Avenue ad agency by 1961?

On the plus side, the characters are attractive (Christina Hendricks? Oh. Man.), and the plotlines raise a lot of issues that are still relevant today, such as gender roles in the workplace and at home. And, of course, a drama about the gathering storm of the late 60's, if done reasonably well, is irresistible to any Boomer-type still fascinated with that period in time. Which is to say, of course, any Boomer-type with a shred of self-awareness.

I also want to link to this recent essay from the New York Times Book Review, which captures both my criticism of the show and the reasons for the pleasure I take in watching it much better than I am able to do myself:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/feb/24/mad-men-account/?pa...

I didn't take that scene to

A Guy Called LULU — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 03:08:20 +0000

In reply to Were we meant to think that

I didn't take that scene to have any particular meaning. Betty Draper is not a likeable person in the series even though she may deserve some pity. Because I was fairly confident that no children were harmed in the production of that scene I was comfortable laughing. It was just part of defining the atmosphere I guess, though it might have been intended to say something about the time, as you suggest. Another scene now comes to mind that shows the family getting up from a picnic and just shaking the blanket and dumping their trash on the ground and leaving. That might very well have happened back then, much less likely today.
Off topic but remembering that picnic scene now makes me think of the millions of people driving so many miles on our Interstate system that have no idea of the gratitude they should have for Ladybird Johnson's program which has kept billboard from polluting the view.

Were we meant to think that

AmericanDreamer — Tue, 28 Jun 2011 02:12:53 +0000

In reply to One of the funniest scene I

Were we meant to think that today, a parent would more likely react with highly evident concern, if not alarm, on seeing a kid with a laundry bag over her head?

I think we are supposed to get from the show that parents were much less self-conscious and "sensitive" in how they treated their kids back then. In an episode we saw a few days ago, Darth Vader Don arrives at Betty's home, returning Sally with, horror of horrors, short hair. (Sally had cut it herself in the bathroom, unknown to the babysitter, who tried frantically to do damage control. It didn't help her. Don fired her on the spot.) Verbal conflict ensues and general bad karma rears its ugly head.

After angrily sending Sally to her room, with punishments (guess they didn't call it "withholding privileges" back then) her husband later talked her into rescinding, Betty barks at Bobby "Bobby, go play with your baby brother outside!!"

One of the funniest scene I

A Guy Called LULU — Mon, 27 Jun 2011 19:14:29 +0000

In reply to Mad Men

One of the funniest scene I recall is one in which Betty and her neighbor friend are sitting talking and Betty's daughter comes into the room with a laundry bag over her head and the plastic is flexing back and forth against her mouth and nose as she breaths. The mother tells to go do something but she just stands there as we watch the laundry bag pulse. Then her mother yells angrily for her to go to her room and clean it or something just to get her to leave them alone. Off she trots with the bag still over her head. I guess it was the next episode when we find that the kid survived.

(I suppose I should issue a

AmericanDreamer — Mon, 27 Jun 2011 16:02:47 +0000

In reply to Love the show. Am in love

(I suppose I should issue a "plot spoiler" warning here, perhaps should do that at the beginning of the main post, for those who haven't seen the show but might want to?)

A couple of my favorite laugh out loud scenes involving her are...

When a few folks from at the agency deliberately get themselves fired at the time of the takoever and start their own operation for a time, they're sitting around a table working and Roger says to Peggy, "Get me a cup of coffee." Peggy, all business and showing no sign whatever of agitation, internal conflict, or self-consciousness and without losing a beat: "No." Roger looks a little bemused. The scene moves on, as though that exchange did not take place. A small triumph for human dignity.

The other one--I don't know if use of this "v" word earns this comment an R or otherwise unacceptable rating and management will want to edit it but here goes...

Peggy gets hit on in an elevator at work by a lesbian or bisexual woman with another company in the same building. The woman comes back to Peggy's office and succeeds in getting her to come to a party where she is told she can meet the director of a movie (I think) Peggy finds intriguing. Peggy shows up at the party. The woman hits on her. Peggy makes it clear with her body language she is not interested. The woman says "Your boyfriend doesn't own your vagina." Peggy, with a much less awkward smile than she would have offered a year or two earlier in her life: "He's renting it." Peggy 1.0 would either not have known what to say in response or would have quickly fled the encounter, and maybe the party. But this Peggy moves right on in the conversation from there, without missing a beat.

Love the show. Am in love

Cho — Mon, 27 Jun 2011 15:49:04 +0000

In reply to Mad Men

Love the show. Am in love with Peggy. (In my heart, it's a toss-up between Peggy and Avril Lavigne - yeah, go figure...)

Favorite scene? In season four, when Don gets blind drunk while in denial about Anna's death, gets in a fight with Peggy, throws up, gets humiliatingly beaten up by Duck, ends up sitting on the couch and ... reflects for a moment on his situation... then says to Peggy,

"Get me another drink!"

Pretty much sums up America 2011.

Great blog, AD.

Sorry. Wish I could chat

EmmaZahn — Mon, 27 Jun 2011 15:41:03 +0000

In reply to Mad Men

Sorry. Wish I could chat about it but haven't yet watched. No cable. And no way to catch up streaming on Netflix. Have committed to no new DVDs either purchased or rented. Streaming uber alles!