dagblog - Comments for "Who is a Jew? Britain's Supreme Court Dings State-Funded Jewish School"

To be fair, matrilineal

Doctor Cleveland — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:49:15 +0000

In reply to Matrilineal descent as the

To be fair, matrilineal descent is also about expecting Jewish wives to be raped by, say, marauding Cossacks. Or if we want to go back, the Romans, the Hellenic Greeks, the Babylonians, the etc.

If you're a subject people long enough, you get used to the fact that the conqueror (whoever it is) sometimes impregnates women whether those women consent or not. And what are you going to do with those babies? So matrilineal descent has had a very real upside through long stretches of Jewish history.

Matrilineal descent as the

Deadman — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:46:00 +0000

In reply to Who is a Jew? Britain's Supreme Court Dings State-Funded Jewish School

Matrilineal descent as the basis for determining Jewishness is one of the tenents of Judaism I despise. Given how dramatically the religion's numbers have fallen over the past century, you would think it would be more accepting of all comers who desire to practice it or even identify with it. Matrilineal descent, based almost wholly on the fact that rabbis did not trust spouses to be faithful, is just one of the many obstacles that Judaism puts up that reinforces its ridiculous assertion of being an exclusive club of 'the chosen ones'. I appreciate the fact Judaism discourages evangelism, and embraces tolerance to a larger degree than the other Western religions, but that doesn't have to go hand in hand with making people who consider themselves or wish to be Jewish go through numerous and potentially hurtful hoops to prove themselves 'worthy.'

Thanks for the explanation,

Nebton — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:16:47 +0000

In reply to They say that the third

Thanks for the explanation, Genghis. That's one of the very few times that a joke needed explaining (for me, at least) and yet was actually funny after the explanation.

They say that the third

Michael Wolraich — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:06:00 +0000

In reply to Well, I'm all for the

They say that the third time's a charm.

(For those who don't get Cleveland's quip, you have to ask a rabbi three times before he or she agrees to help you convert to Judaism.)

I apologize for failing to

Michael Wolraich — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:57:00 +0000

In reply to Just for the record, Mormons

I apologize for failing to introduce the Mormon perspective on the "Who is a Jew" question. While the Book of Mormon suggests that at least some Native Americans descend from the Israelite tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim, many Mormons believe that only the descendants of the tribe Judah count as Jews. Some also note that members of Manasseh and Ephraim descend from Joseph and his Egyptian wife, hence Anonymous's matrilineal point.

But Mormon ideas on this point is somewhat at odds with Jewish doctrine. Jews certainly recognize descendants of tribes other than Judah as Jews. In addition, the rule of matrilineal descent criterion wasn't adopted until Roman times. Many Bible era Israelite men married non-Jews, including Judah, whose wife was a Canaanite. Thus, if Jews were defined by matrineal descent from Judah, there wouldn't be any.

If we want to consider the hypothetical response from Orthodox Jewry to proof that Native Americans descend from the tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim, we have an excellent example to work with. The Bnei Menashe of India claim descent from Manasseh. Though historians are dubious, one of Israel's chief rabbis declared the claim to be valid, and the Bnei Menashe have been allowed to return to Israel. That said, before coming to Israel, the Bnei Menashe had to officially convert to "modern" Judaism, as have other lost communities, such as the Falasha of Ethiopia, so one could conceivably argue that before conversion, they weren't Jewish or fully Jewish or whatever.

Which of course means the

Doctor Cleveland — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:42:02 +0000

In reply to Well, technically then,

Which of course means the very first Jewish mother was old enough to be a bubbe. This explains so much.

Well, I'm all for the

Doctor Cleveland — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:39:38 +0000

In reply to Who is a Jew? Britain's Supreme Court Dings State-Funded Jewish School

Well, I'm all for the religious practice test, especially in a state-funded school.

I would have converted to Judaism, Genghis, but the rabbi turned me down twice and I got the hint.

Just for the record, Mormons

Anonymous — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:57:51 +0000

In reply to Who is a Jew? Britain's Supreme Court Dings State-Funded Jewish School

Just for the record, Mormons do not believe Native Americans are Jewish, especially by the matrilinear standard you describe. Even the wikipedia article you cite does not state that Mormons believe Native Americans are Jewish, so I'm not sure where you're coming from...

Also, while I recognize that you were joking about circumcision being the reason there are so few Jewish males, in the U.S. roughly 65% of men are circumcised. Probably more information than you ever wanted to know... :)

Good point.

Michael Wolraich — Thu, 17 Dec 2009 23:03:39 +0000

In reply to Well, technically then,

Good point.

Also, couldn't God have

Nebton — Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:27:15 +0000

In reply to You haven't been reading your

Also, couldn't God have stopped a lot of this fighting if he had started with Noah instead of with Abraham?

P.S. Great info about the beanie. I'd always wondered how that got started, but never enough to actually look it up or anything.