dagblog - Comments for "My Saturday with Trope"

Wim's ode to Berlin - Wings

Elusive Trope — Mon, 22 Aug 2011 15:22:29 +0000

Wim's ode to Berlin - Wings of Desire has always been one my favorites since I saw in the theater.

When I saw you mention

artappraiser — Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:54:37 +0000

In reply to Thanks for giving some time

When I saw you mention Jarmusch I knew you got what I was saying. Stranger than Paradise: another one of my all time favs.

Wim Wenders is another one that fits here. The real high high-brows look down on him for "pandering" to pop interests (angels, ya know ) and being too romantic. Paris, Texas is another great one....

I think my tastes are far

Verified Atheist — Mon, 22 Aug 2011 10:43:33 +0000

In reply to I would be interested in

I think my tastes are far more philistine than yours, but for what it's worth, I also enjoyed this movie immensely. (I watched it on tape or DVD many years ago.)

Thanks for giving some time

Elusive Trope — Mon, 22 Aug 2011 02:45:12 +0000

In reply to Where your "Andre"

Thanks for giving some time and thought to your response.

First I would like to say that one of the facets of the brilliance of Wallace Shaw was that he isn't pretentious, even though he is about as deep as artists get. I think the reason that My Dinner was impactful was because it was able to deal with big ideas, and talk about big ideas, but do it in a way that most of us would deal with it.

What I mean by this is that there are some theoretical ideas, such as those, say, Derrida, which can only be dealt with though developing an academic paper - ewrites after rewrites. But as we move through life, we don't have that luxury. We may have deep thoughts, but they end up becoming something like:: "and maybe that's true, but, I mean, isn't there any kind of writing, or any kind of a play that--I mean: isn't it still legitimate for writers to try to portray reality so that people can see it?"

Not the most concise and focused of thoughts.

In one way, My Dinner showed the real side of the intelligentsia. Which may have been why it was so moving for a teenager who had been sucked into the mythology of the intelligentsia.

The one comment I would make on films like Clueless is that for everything it might reveal artistically, it also reinforces the very socio-political facets of society one might posit it is undermining. The classic example of today is that young conservatives enjoy The Colbert Report as the young liberals.

One can say that the difference between great art and good art is that with great art, nobody who at least somewhat engages it cannot but be confronted with their delusions and illusions.

Of course the intelligentsia cannot be fully judged based on the wannabes who post asinine comments. the low brow in film will always have its place in our culture in significant way. Whether we are talking about episodes of Family Guy or Harold Lloyd.

The two great American film makers who I think brought the low brow and the high brow together in fascinating ways in recent years are Jim Jarmusch (Stranger than Paradise, Down by Law, Mystery Train) and Hal Hartley (Trust, Simple Men, Surving Desire)

I will always believe one of the great film moments is the dance scene from Simple Men:

But the probably the greatest of the great low brow/high brow films is Run Lola Run (Lola Rennt). (which coincidently was the last film I saw at the Harvard Exit)

Where your "Andre"

artappraiser — Mon, 22 Aug 2011 01:05:49 +0000

In reply to My Saturday with Trope

Where your "Andre" compilation says

I mean, you know, there was a time when you could have just, for instance, written, I don't know, Sense and Sensibility, by Jane Austen! And I'm sure the people who read it had a pretty strong experience. I'm sure they did. I mean, all right, now you're saying that people today wouldn't get it, and maybe that's true, but, I mean, isn't there any kind of writing, or any kind of a play that--I mean: isn't it still legitimate for writers to try to portray reality so that people can see it?

it immediately came to my mind how the 1995 movie Clueless was based on Jane Austen's Emma. As someone who used ta consider herself a scholar of 19th-century "pop" culture, some rambling thoughts on that. I always thought the two were quite comparable and, that Clueless was of pretty equal caliber and meaning in its culture to the same for Emma in its own. It's a nice contrarian example to all the doomsayers about how little, rather than how much, our culture has changed since Austen.

And personally, I like both but prefer Clueless because it's from my time, I can "relate" a little better because of that, despite the things I know about the 19th century. It just makes it a bit easier, more relaxing and enjoyable, if I know the "language" intimately, as it were. No surprise that I've watched Clueless many more times than I've watched Dinner with Andre (I've maybe watched the latter 2 times, Clueless perhaps 4 1/2 to 5.) Clueless is a real clever, charming portrait of its time, while having the universal architecture of the Austen set pieces, making them both understandable to a lot of cultures, classes and periods. I'm not so sure Andre is like that, though I enjoyed it, it is trying just a little bit too hard to be "high" art, just a little too "precious" and self-consciously intellectual.

Can you tell I am very sympathetic to pop art, what some call "low culture"? I hate when people educated people bash a quality piece of it, whether its direction by Ron Howard in the 20th century or writing by Jane Austen in the 19th. I think those kind of things are kind of like little miracles when they reach a caliber where they can communicate something to many different audiences and "languages" while at the same staying very true to their own. Especially if they do it with Moliere style light comedy, something very difficult to do.

On the other hand, I am very hard on those trying to reach for the level of "high art," especially when its meta about "high art" like Andre is; I'm much more demanding and critical because the standards are much higher for "miracle" status there. While I would cry if someone took my IFC and Sundance channels away, I also am always secretly rooting for the IMDB.com commenters on indie flicks that say stuff like "what a bunch of crap this movie was," just to keep em real . By em I mean the "artistes" I think it's right and good that they should be continually challenged if they are not communicating well to a sufficient size audience. The martyr saint artist where no one knows his true genius until his death is mostly myth and highly overrated; communication among the living is good.

My Dinner With Andre made a

moat — Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:42:10 +0000

In reply to My Saturday with Trope

My Dinner With Andre made a deep impression upon me.

I have had the good fortune of seeing Wallace Shawn in different Chekhov plays. The Andre film taught me how to watch them.

I would be interested in

Elusive Trope — Sun, 21 Aug 2011 17:06:21 +0000

In reply to Like many great movies, ``My

I would be interested in hearing your reaction after you do see it.

Like many great movies, ``My

Ramona — Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:52:52 +0000

In reply to Well, if I can turn at least

Like many great movies, ``My Dinner With Andre'' is almost impossible to nail down. ``Two men talk and eat (in real time) at a fancy New York restaurant,'' writes CineBooks. Wrong, and wrong. Not in real time but filmed with exquisite attention to the smallest details by director Louis Malle over a period of weeks. And not in a New York restaurant but on a studio set. The conversation that flows so spontaneously between Andre Gregory and Wallace Shawn was carefully scripted. ``They taped their conversations two or three times a week for three months,'' Pauline Kael writes, ``and then Shawn worked for a year shaping the material into a script, in which they play comic distillations of aspects of themselves.''

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19990613/REVIE...

Okay, yes. I may have to drop everything and find this thing.

Thanks for the feedback. I

Elusive Trope — Sun, 21 Aug 2011 04:42:51 +0000

In reply to Thanks for this. It made me

Thanks for the feedback. I hesitated about posting this.

Well, if I can turn at least

Elusive Trope — Sun, 21 Aug 2011 04:41:18 +0000

In reply to For some reason I've never

Well, if I can turn at least one person on to My Dinner than this has been a successful day.