dagblog - Comments for "NATO nations set to reap spoils of Libya war"

oil. hmmm. i just came across

Elusive Trope — Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:32:03 +0000

In reply to NATO nations set to reap spoils of Libya war

oil. hmmm.

i just came across this video and was working it into a blog but i think it works here as we look here in the US to a three day weekend. complaining about Libya efforts and oil is a lot of wanting our cake and eating it, too.

(of course the lyrics are a nice juxtaposition of (forced) simiplicity next to indulgence implied in the images)

John McCain also says Sarah

Red Planet — Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:21:02 +0000

In reply to Cogent response, although

John McCain also says Sarah Palin was a competent choice for Vice President. Wouldn't it be nice if we never had to hear his name again?

That's a fascinating story told by Talitha Van Zon. One wonders what goes on in the minds of the privileged as a Hell erupts all about them. Thanks for the link.

Cogent response, although

NCD — Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:42:07 +0000

In reply to Not saying oil is the only

Cogent response, although John McCain still believes we could have won in Vietnam, if we got really serious about it (as if 8 years spent killing a few million of the locals and dropping more tonnage of bombs then were dropped by all sides in WW2 were just a half-hearted effort to keep the commies from leap frogging to Australia, and on to San Francisco as the propaganda of the times told us).

Noticed this article on the last days of the regime, at link, interview with a Dutch woman with one of Gadaffi's sons as Tripoli fell.

Not saying oil is the only

Red Planet — Sun, 28 Aug 2011 06:33:19 +0000

In reply to Libya is on the doorstep of

Not saying oil is the only thing that is in our national interest, NCD, not the only thing that might motivate us to entertain military intervention.

You note that Qaddafi was the dictator for 42 years, and that Libya had oil all of that time. It's true. Which is why Libya has always been one of the few very small countries we've actually paid attention to. I think you've got it right that NATO only intervened now because the rebellion presented a unique opportunity. I don't think the humanitarian motive, absent Libya's oil, would have been enough.

Interesting that you mention recent French military action in Ivory Coast. The French have a long and storied involvement there, not much of it benign. Here's a nice summary from the NYT:

"But [in Ivory Coast] France has not leaned heavily on this [the UN-sanctioned "responsibility to protect"] as justification for its actions; the messy reality of killing and collateral damage, the all-too-humanness of local allies and the allure of regime change combine to make doctrinal modesty the wisest choice.

"History, chance, national interests and presidential impetuousness seem to have played larger roles. Ivory Coast was a French colony, has a significant population of French citizens (and resident French troops) and has been important, together with its neighbors, as a resource base for French business, notably in oil. Libya was not a French colony — although France made a grab for the Fezzan, in southwest Libya, after World War II, briefly attaching it to French Algeria. France does, however, have a considerable interest in keeping Libyan oil flowing — and in keeping Libyan immigrants in Libya, or at least Italy. Just a few days ago, France expressed an interest in strengthening its border with Italy, which under European Union accords is supposed to be open.

"Finally, the government of President Nicolas Sarkozy was embarrassed by its late-in-the-day friendships with the governments of Hosni Mubarak and, especially, Ben Ali of Tunisia. It was bad for the political amour-propre.

Result? Two little wars, one regime down, one to go."

Gbagbo is the fellow who opened up Ivory Coast's traditionally France & America-friendly oil industry to bids from Russia and China. Now he's under arrest, held by the pro-French opposition, it is reported, and the French are very interested in promoting democracy. Sarkozy's re-election is a factor in all this, and one should never underestimate the influence of France's incomparable intellectual, Bernard-Henri Lévy.

By the way, I pointed out that we didn't intervene to save Cambodian citizens from the Holocaust, leading you to wonder whether I thought we should have 'won' in Vietnam and then gone on to invade Cambodia.

No, actually, I think we should have left Vietnam long before the Kissinger-sponsored invasions of Cambodia. Let's go back earlier, long before we turned the Ho Chi Minh trail into a killing ground, driving the VC and the People's Army of NV into Cambodia. How about if we'd never invaded Vietnam in the first place? That would have been the best time to stop that war.

But since we did what we did, a convincing argument can be made that the Cambodian Holocaust resulted from our invasion of Vietnam and bombing of Cambodia, and that, if we ever owed a moral obligation to a foreign civilian population, we owed something to those hundreds of thousands of displaced, tortured and dying Cambodians. But, even under those circumstances, the humanitarian motive was not sufficient to spark an intervention by us or anyone else.

Libya is on the doorstep of

NCD — Sun, 28 Aug 2011 05:15:22 +0000

In reply to Oil=national interest. It's

Libya is on the doorstep of Europe, similar to the 90's Bosnia situation. Bosnia, the city of Sarajevo and Kosovo all had zero oil, but the US and NATO also intervened to stop the slaughter.

And the Republicans complained like hell and said Clinton was overstepping his authority.

As with Libya, in Bosnia, not one US troop was killed in action.

Reality check: Gadaffi was dictator for 42 years, Libya had oil for 42 years. If it was just oil why wait 42 years? NATO intervened because the people rebelled and Gadaffi said he would slaughter them, and he was off to a good start at doing it.

I don't suppose by mentioning Cambodia you are saying we should have 'won' in Vietnam, and then moved over the border to Cambodia next? And Syria? Perhaps if Cheney was still President. The French military just intervened in the Ivory Coast and captured a strongman who was killing his opposition. The AU has forces in other countries in Africa.

Just saying that where

jollyroger — Sun, 28 Aug 2011 00:26:46 +0000

In reply to Oil=national interest. It's

Just saying that where there's oil, there's motive to intervene.

we do not tolerate in our own jurisdictions a police force which shrugs at some calls for service because there's no dope to confiscate and sell in the garage.

A true world government would be in Uganda (LRE) Sudan, Somilia, Ivory Coast, Zimbwabe, in a heartbeat because that is their proper job, just like the cops will come if someone is breaking in your window and you let them know.

Oil=national interest. It's

Red Planet — Sun, 28 Aug 2011 00:03:05 +0000

In reply to NATO nations set to reap spoils of Libya war

Oil=national interest. It's almost as easy to understand as F=ma.

Not accusing NATO of fomenting revolution (also not ruling it out). Just saying that where there's oil, there's motive to intervene.

And, clearly, where there are only civilians dying (Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, Syria and the beat goes on...) there's little desire to intervene.

Humanitarianism was always a cover.

Of course British SAS was 'on

NCD — Sat, 27 Aug 2011 22:21:23 +0000

In reply to NATO nations set to reap spoils of Libya war

Of course British SAS was 'on the ground', when your aircraft are dropping tons of bombs you want to make sure they hit the right targets.

Actually it is the Libyans who will 'reap the spoils of war' if you call freedom from a murderous and mad dictator 'spoils'. This isn't Iraq where the impetus for 'regime change' came from the White House and the American Enterprise Institute.

I suppose mealy mouthed narcissists who complain that Sarkozy or NATO helped Libya to freedom in a mere 6 months would prefer that the Chinese, who coddled Gaddafi, abstained on the UN vote to stop him slaughtering his own people, and then expressed 'deep concern' about the NATO operation, should be the only outside country to 'reap the profits of war'. A war for the freedom of a people that they, the Chinese, contributed absolutely zero to win.

Sorry but the Libyans are not likely to comply.