dagblog - Comments for "The Religious Test is Alive and Kicking in American Politics. Again."

Speaking for myself, I'm

Verified Atheist — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 19:19:32 +0000

Speaking for myself, I'm pretty sure I would have the same attitude in a conversation with a devout Muslim. Obviously, I can't be 100% sure, because the situation has never arisen. To your point about the "me too" reactions, I think you've got a good point. A friend of mine who is a devout Christian was surprised when I told him how uncomfortable I was now that we found ourselves in a situation where I felt like an outsider to the degree that I feel the need to conceal my atheism. He told me that he often felt like an outsider at the University, where most people were atheists, agnostics, or cafeteria-style Christians (with an emphasis on the cafeteria-style, i.e., not really that committed to it). His admission was equally a surprise to me.

Welcome. There's so much in

artappraiser — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 19:15:22 +0000

In reply to That was terrific. Thanks so

Welcome. There's so much in there that it struck me as odd that no playwright or screenwriter had ever seized on the Rokeach story.

We're going through a

artappraiser — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 19:08:12 +0000

In reply to My thought is that what will

We're going through a particularly passionate phase, but I think it will recede from time to time.

If so, even then we're not at all an extreme case comparatively, see:

Irreligion By Country.

I think the evangelism and religiosity of the U.S. is blown out of proportion by many foes, adherents and don't-care-that-much alike, precisely because it makes for great stories. I.E., if it really was bad, people wouldn't feel it appropriate to share stories about the crazy lady on the airplane on the internet or at a party because they wouldn't expect others to come up with "nod-nod" or "me too" reactions. It would be truly taboo to complain about it. And a governor holding a prayer rally to stop the drought is news precisely because it's considered wacky by a significant part of the population, it's an attention-getting story. If it was something every joe and jill expected to happen all the time, no one would bother to cover it.

The one thing evangelical christianity does right (as in "to their benefit"), not just in the U.S., but across the world, is offer cafeteria or buffet-style grazing. Billy Graham really was a pioneer in megachurches and huge prayer rallies, and they are uniquely convenient for the nearly agnostic or foxhole Christians, you don't have to show a member card and you don't have to go regularly, you can just get a nice dose when you want it. That's why they are growing so fast in the religion competition worldwide. You can believe the way you want, there is no hierarchy and no catechism, no rules, you can pick your own preacher and even then you are considered as good as him in interpreting the scripture.

Here's the thing with the fervent ones. If they ask you if you've taken Jesus into your heart, and you say yes, they don't have a way of proving that you are telling the truth. Because they ain't got many rules about that, there's nobody in charge, no pope.

Also, more times than not, in my experience, the more irritating ones are those looking for someone to share their joy in discussion rather than convert. Sensible evangelical folks get the cues that you don't want to talk about that right now but something else, and redirecting the conversation works. Of course if they are especially fervent, their conversation will be sprinkled with references because that is their world, i.e., talking about how they do volunteer work at a nursing home doing bible classes. But they will listen to your work stories, too.

I think it's good for more agnostic and atheist folks to do a check on themselves by asking: would I have the same attitude in a conversation with a devout Muslim? If not, then you've got some issues yourself. Because in most cases, they have the cafeteria system, too.

Yes. If furrowed brow and

emerson jr. — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 03:54:43 +0000

In reply to Or raise one eyebrow and say,

Yes. If furrowed brow and "Interesting" doesn't do the trick, proceed to one raised eyebrow and uttering "Fascinating". And don't worry if raising one eyebrow is a problem for you. Use a finger to raise the brow if necessary. It all adds to the effect.

I have to say there are

synchronicity — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 03:42:06 +0000

In reply to The Religious Test is Alive and Kicking in American Politics. Again.

I have to say there are moments when I feel just a little threatened by the degree of what I will call Christian Nationalism in our nation defined by Michelle Goldberg, author of Kingdom Coming: The Rise Of Christian Nationalism, as "adherence to a political ideology that posits a christian right to rule" ( http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/11/151212/239).

In the same article linked above a link to Texas and Christian Nationalism:

Christian nationalists believe in a revisionist history, which holds that the founders were devout Christians who never intended to create a secular republic; separation of church and state, according to this history, is a fraud perpetrated by God-hating subversives. One of the foremost Christian revisionist historians is David Barton, who , in addition to running an organization called Wallbuilders that disseminates Christian nationalist books, tracts and videos, is also the vice-chairman of the Texas Republican Party. The goal of Christian nationalist politics is the restoration of the imagined Christian nation. As George Grant, former executive director of D. James Kennedy's influential Coral Ridge Ministries, wrote in his book "The Changing of the Guard:"

"Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness.
    But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice.
    It is dominion we are after. Not just influence.
    It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time.
    It is dominion we are after.
    World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish."

I seriously hate that feeling that I could be the target of this large tribe of people that believe they should wipe out people like me. Persecution like this is so rampant in the history of humanity.

My daughter is eternally grateful that she was not raised with religion but was exposed to religion in the context of sufism and Dances of Universal peace that incorporated some information and sacred songs etc from a wide variety of religions and cultures in the world.

Personally I see God as ':pure consciousness coming to know itself'.

The challenge I see is that young people crave coming together and an understanding of their deepest selves. There is a pain I see them suffer in not finding a way to express this. But I see them firmly opposed to the churches and religions that too often seem archaic and rigid in their views and not at all offering what they are looking for. I am looking into starting a non profit and creating a space for these young people to get together and do some of the things they are craving to do.

I'm fairly certain that such

Verified Atheist — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:19:28 +0000

In reply to I don't suppose you've ever

I'm fairly certain that such an admission would only increase their fervor, because surely if I truly knew the Lord I could not deny His existence. Unfortunately, in real life I've felt the need to become more and more closeted about my atheism. I have friends I can talk about it openly with (even a couple who are themselves religious), but mostly I've made the decision to keep that aspect of myself available only to those I strongly trust.

I don't suppose you've ever

AmericanDreamer — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 20:30:48 +0000

In reply to Alas, I am unable to raise a

I don't suppose you've ever considered telling such inquirers that your online handle is "Verified Atheist", and does that answer their question, have you?

Alas, I am unable to raise a

Verified Atheist — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:59:24 +0000

In reply to Or raise one eyebrow and say,

Alas, I am unable to raise a single eyebrow. That's the real reason I rejected my Creator.

Or raise one eyebrow and say,

Donal — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:56:57 +0000

In reply to The best way to avoid

Or raise one eyebrow and say, "Fascinating."

You ain't a kiddin' the

wabby — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:15:30 +0000

In reply to The Religious Test is Alive and Kicking in American Politics. Again.

You ain't a kiddin' the religious test is alive and kickin', Mona. And in these times of elusive employment, loss of hearth and home, crippled education opportunities, and crumbled finances, how do our wise leaders guard us against all that bad stuff? Well, they introduce legislation to protect us from being sneaked up on by Sharia law, because somehow, that is more imperative than stirring up a few jobs, jobs, jobs for us. We're choked by personal debt, sleepin' in our cars, our kids are gonna stay stupid, and we're gonna get the right to work for minimum wage or less, but by gawd, our wise leaders are gonna save us from having to be Moooslems!

Yep, we need us some little bit of Jesus to hep us not freeze to death this winter on account of they turned off the govvermint heat money. Why are they not working on the real needs of the people? Like housing, food, education. Isn't that their job? To serve the people? Why are they not working on guiding us citizens through this awful time?

Promoting their own religiosity should be their very last public declaration, not their first.