dagblog - Comments for "What I Learned At Occupy New Hampshire"

Indeed! The most ignorant of

SleepinJeezus — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 00:15:00 +0000

In reply to Libertarians hide behind the

Indeed! The most ignorant of all libertarians are those who argue with all the intellectual vigor one would expect from a vegetarian carnivore. Congratulations, sir! You've certainly squared the circle with your comments! LOL!

Libertarians hide behind the

bitbutter — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:44:30 +0000

In reply to I never said Ron Paul looks

Libertarians hide behind the "No government is the best government" juvenile grasp of anarchy, but then refuse to argue for the complete dismissal of all things government

I'm a libertarian, and don't shy from arguing against the existence of government. I'm happy to have been able to correct a misconception of yours today. In future, more caution regarding the use of blanket generalisations will help you avoid similar mistakes.

I'm not even sure it's

erica20 — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 02:36:44 +0000

In reply to Well, Mr. Ruff, I read your

I'm not even sure it's possible to BE an "Extreme Socialist." It's like asking for a steak "Super Medium Rare."

(With apologies to any vegetarians in the crowd.)

"had the Civic Forum not

PeraclesPlease — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:29:47 +0000

In reply to And just let me add, which is

"had the Civic Forum not existed, the outcome would have probably led to a highly unstable coalition of parties" - oh my, unlike the coalition that quickly fell apart so that Klaus took over, or the Czech-Slovak coalition that fell apart a year later to split the country in 2.

Is it really so hard to fathom that a country that had already risen up in protest in 1968 would easily figure out how to unify against Communism in 1989? While convenient to have ex-Charter77 alumni to form a kernel of action, the students already marching would have had no problem voicing demands, and as Wikipedia notes, they'd already spoken to the Prime Minister before Havel & others created the Citizen's Forum.

Now likely the Charter77 guys were a bit older and wiser than the students, but they still botched a number of things - not just Havel, but the whole group. But then they walked in without any experience.

In general, however - Prague is a rather smallish city, a few hundred thousand in city center, and dominated Czechoslovakia. For the "in crowd" in 1989, there were likely fewer than 10 serious gathering spots for the protesters, so all of the needed networking could easily have happened without any foreplanning.

And just let me add, which is

Elusive Trope — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:03:37 +0000

In reply to The communist student march

And just let me add, which is key to my originally bringing up Havel and the likes of him was that after the police crack down on the Prague march (as opposed to the one in Slovakia) in two days, Havel and his likes formed the Civic Forum (which would later sweep the elections). One looks at the current OWS groups across this country and it is doubtful that they could develop a similar formation of an alternative government in a couple of days that could command the majority of the country's citizen in the first election after a toppling of the current regime. Given my understandings of organizational dynamics, there had to be strong existing networks already in place for such a cohesive and stable organization such as the Civic Forum to arise in just about 48 hours.

Moreover, when one looks at the election results in 1990, given that the Communist Party took a distant second place, had the Civic Forum not existed, the outcome would have probably led to a highly unstable coalition of parties.

I don't have access to all of

Elusive Trope — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:40:46 +0000

In reply to The communist student march

I don't have access to all of the materials regarding this event, so i was just clicking to see what I could quickly find, and from Wiki to the journal Social Forces, John K Glenn of NYU in his article "Competing Challengers and Contested Outcomes to State Breakdown: The Velvet Revolution in Czechoslavakia" writes in the abstract :

I demonstrate that the democratic outcome was not a given by the breakdown of Leninist state; rather it was the result of successful mobilization by the civic movements that linked their demands with striking theater networks, which enabled them to overcome their organizational deficiencies.

The reason I put this here is that I think there is some serious debate over the dynamics of the VR and how it unfolded. And the point I was looking to get some back up was that it wasn't just the Charter 77 crowd that was involved, as if they and only they ran the show once things got off the ground. In other words, Havel could have done nothing during this time and things would have gone just about how they went. I'm in no way saying he and his particular circle saved the day and that without them all would have been lost. And in no way am I trying to diminish the role the students played in sparking the rest of the citizens that November.

"rigidly"

PeraclesPlease — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:17:39 +0000

In reply to The communist student march

"rigidly"

The communist student march

PeraclesPlease — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:16:29 +0000

In reply to You don't get it. I'm not

The communist student march was unrelated to Charter 77 (the origins of the Citizen's Forum), and actually started in Slovakia, not Prague.

As for Havel & crew, their involvement was repressed ridgedly after 1977, and "Under the dictatorship, the influence of Charter 77 remained limited. It didn't reach wide groups of people and most of its members were from Prague. The majority of Czechoslovak citizens knew of the organization only because of the government's campaign against it."

That there were dissidents in the theater and they quickly formed an anti-government consensus late at night on the 3rd day, after students had already met with the Prime Minister.

If there hadn't been Charter 77 alumni, they would have pulled together other dissidents and sympathizers from the thousands who'd already marched.

Yes, there was probably some influence from the Charter 77 activities before, mainly in a sense of general unrest and distrust of government, but it wasn't a serious organizational body like Solidarity. I think you overestimate how much of a "network" there was - it was just guys who drank together and read poetry and books, and the networks of students in dorms was stronger from 3 or 4 years than dissidents from 20.

You don't get it. I'm not

Elusive Trope — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:25:04 +0000

In reply to You still don't get it. Even

You don't get it. I'm not trying to put lipstick on it. You somehow want to just say that because communism was in tatters because of the heavy lifting by those elsewhere that all one have to do was get some folks out into the streets, the regime falls, and a peaceful transition to a new government just happened, and it would seem, without the previous networks of groups and individuals that had been built up over decades having nothing to do with that outcome. I am merely stating that those previous developed human networks which had been in place at the time the people went into the streets and to the square enable for a transition that led something more close to what one would ideally like to have seen as opposed to some new form of dictatorship, and helped ensure the lack of great violence. And that these human networks functioned as a result of individuals taking leadership roles. One such leader was Havel, but there were many, many more, most unknown outside CZ. Each one did so with varying degrees of risk depending on the times. You jumped in and made some assertion about Havel coming from a cushy background, and my response to that is - who cares? Then you throw in stuff about how Havel governed once the new regime took power and my response to that again is - that is irrelevant to the topic that was being discussed.

And just because I want to look at the dynamics of resistance and see similarities between various cases doesn't mean that I also believe that if there was a Bunker Hill in the US resistance than there also has to be a corresponding one in the Velvet Revolution. I'm not trying to make freedom fighters out of everyone - nor do I believe it a case of those who were on the side of the angels and those who resisted them.

The whole point is that the specific outcome that happened in CZ was a function of many moving parts (something we can both agree upon) and I would emphasize that a significant factor in that specific outcome was those human networks built up over decades. Had they not been there, things could have easily turned a bad way as groups and individuals sought to seize power in the vacuum left by the fall of communism. The outcome that actually did happen, in other words, was not just organic unfolding of the people's movement. Just as the American Revolution was decades in the making before there ever was a shot fired.

You still don't get it. Even

PeraclesPlease — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:29:29 +0000

In reply to was there corruption etc -

You still don't get it. Even the Nov 17 protests started with the *COMMUNIST YOUTH* march about a studen killed by Nazis. There was no riotous rebellion, there was no Bunker Hill, there was no 8 year Revolutionary War. There were 10 days in the street with little violence and then it was over. And it's not because they were well-prepared - it's because the wall had fallen a month before, and communism was in tatters.

So I'm telling you about the dynamics of that rebellion, and you want to gloss it up and put lipstick on and make freedom fighters out of everyone.