dagblog - Comments for "Released Prisoner tells Palestinian Children to Become Suicide Bombers"

Ok I'll play the ridiculous

artappraiser — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 04:12:56 +0000

Ok I'll play the ridiculous game of Morality Olympics here.

On a scale of 10, I'd put the Yassin assassination at a 6.5 because of the collateral damage. I'd give encouraging children to be suicide bombers a 10.

(But I must say that I'd also put being prejudiced against physically handicapped adults, by treating them as if they are a child or developmentally disabled, and incapable of being a leader of a war, at oh, maybe 0.15.)

And I would put assassinating him with a sniper's rifle instead of using a helicopter missile with collateral damage a 4, because that would be standard warfare in a territorial war against a general, which I see as the situation, albeit where one party in the war does not have easy access to rifles, so it still has a rating on the immorality scale. But not because he was physically handicapped! (I do not pity the physically handicapped because I know the vast majority do not want my pity. I do pity children who are taught that to kill themselves is a "good thing," for whatever reason.)

From

Wikipedia's consensus-edited entry:

[....] Yassin opposed the peace process between the Palestinians and the Israelis. He supported armed resistance against Israel, and was very outspoken in his views. He asserted that Palestine is an Islamic land "consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day" and that no Arab leader had the right to give up any part of this territory.^[13] Yassin's rhetoric did not distinguish between Israelis and Jews, at one point stating that "Reconciliation with the Jews is a crime."^[22] Yassin's inflammatory rhetoric was often scrutinized in the news media.^[23] On one occasion, he opined that Israel "must disappear from the map".^[23] Yassin's declaration that "We chose this road, and will end with martyrdom or victory" later became an oft repeated mantra among Palestinians.^[24]

In 1989, Yassin was arrested by the Israelis and sentenced to life imprisonment. In 1997 Yassin was released from Israeli prison as part of an arrangement with Jordan following the failed assassination attempt of Khaled Mashal, which had been conducted by the Israeli Mossad in Jordan. Yassin was released by Israel in exchange for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities,^[13]on the condition that he refrain from continuing to call for suicide bombings against Israel.^[25]

Following his release, Yassin resumed his leadership of Hamas. He immediately resumed his calls for attacks on Israel, using tactics including suicide bombings, thus violating the condition of his release.^[25] He also sought to maintain relations with the Palestinian Authority, believing that a clash between the two groups would be harmful to the interests of the Palestinian people.^[13] Yassin, however, was repeatedly placed under house arrest by the Authority. Each time he was eventually released, often after extended demonstrations by his supporters^{[citation needed]}.[....]

Reem Raiyshi's suicide bombing at the Erez crossing on 14 January 2004, which killed four civilians, was believed by the Israeli military to have been directly ordered by Yassin.^[28] Yassin suggested that the suicide bomber was fulfilling her "obligation" to make jihad,^[29] and Israel's Deputy Defence Minister responded by publicly declaring that Yassin was "marked for death".^[28] Yassin denied having any involvement in the attack's planning.^[28]

[.....]

In his statement Yassin has declared that Hamas did target Israeli civilians, only in direct retaliation for the death of Palestinian civilians. In his thinking this was a necessary tactic to “show the Israelis they could not get away without a price for killing our people.”^[33] [....]

I don't care if you call my

Bruce Levine — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 02:01:00 +0000

In reply to I had a much better opinion

I don't care if you call my response "hysterical" except that whether you know it or not, that it is a typical adjective used to describe Jewish People. I assume you weren't using it for that purpose. As to what you think of my "moral bearing" I care even less, really.

As to my response, and in answer to my friend Lulu, the reason I posted this is because, rightly or wrongly I believe there is more than an hysterical tendency, but a real tendency, to see the Jewish State as fundamentally evil in most circles that I tend to find myself in in the blogosphere. And I have tended to respond accordingly and I make no apologies for it. I think it is important to balance what is written on lefty blogs with a wake-up call that there is more than assholes expanding settlements that explains why there is no peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians.

Did I react strongly to what I saw as your reflexive need to temper what is gross and inhuman and evil, by comparing it to the clumsy murder of Yassin that caused the collateral deaths of innocents? You bet your fucking ass I did. I'd do it again. I think your analogy is ridiculous and cruel; but that's just hysterical me.

Do I see both sides to this story, or all 15 sides, or more? You bet your fucking ass I do. But I choose what I write based on the audience I am writing to and based on what I think needs to be said. I don't care if you don't believe me, but I know damn well I've spent more time taking on Israel right or wrongers than you and just about everyone on this website and beyond put together. But I write what I feel I should write, and accept the de minimis consequences of losing credibility with this or that member of the community at issue. It's what I do.

So, again, without Jewish hysteria, I say to you NCD that I think it is really fucked up for you to react to the story I posted with the equivalence shtick. I don't buy it. If you or anyone thinks that it is OK to pretend that Gaza is an open-air prison, you can do it--and I can respond, because my People know from open-air prisons, and my People know that the fact that we know about Open-air prisons is often used against us--like an ice pick twisted into the eye socket is used. And that is not to say that I endorse any actions taken by the Israeli government against innocents in Gaza--I just know it's a lie that it's a prison where people are starving.

And the fact that this or that Israeli calls out his government only corroborates that Israel is a democracy, and people have the right to think whatever they wish about their government. I might even agree with them wholeheartedly and nevertheless choose not to write so on this blog

You can think whatever you want about my moral bearing NCD. But I bet you don't ache for a peaceful two state solution for Israelis and Palestinians more than I do by a lifetime and a long shot. It is my essence.

Bruce S. Levine

New York, New York

Bslev, I give you the same

A Guy Called LULU — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:26:20 +0000

In reply to Oh Lulu, equivalence is the

Bslev, I give you the same benefit of doubt as to whether you are small minded. And, I have long understood that there is much in the world that is vile. I see it in many places. I do, though, assume you had a purpose in posting the story, but since you have not said what that purpose is, maybe we should both say what our purposes were. Should I assume that you want readers to believe that the hateful woman is representative of all Palestinians or even of all the released Palestinian prisoners? That did seem to be the message I heard from the Israeli Ambassador yesterday on NPR when he referred to all the prisoners as a group and called them all "mass murderers". Are all of the thousand plus released prisoners mass murderers and do all Palestinians not yet imprisoned wish to be mass murderers of Israelis? I doubt it, but all I know about Palestinians is what I see in the news. But then the same goes for the Israelis.
My links at least had the internal balance of showing that some Israelis did not support the actions of the villagers who attacked while the Israeli cops watched. My link showed crazed, heartless, cruel, criminal, murderous, Israeli settlers attacking innocents, but it also showed other brave, ethical, right-minded Israelis standing up for what is right. If I had intended to smear Israelis as a group I could have found plenty of links which, standing alone, would have done so.
Your link was to the story of a woman who has apparently become crazed with hate. Maybe her mother taught her to be that way from the time she was a child and she is passing it on. Maybe years in prison taught her that, but it is at least possible that the situation of her life growing up would have turned her that way regardless of what good parenting might have intended. Maybe her life situation taught her to hate. [I don't think her ethnicity or religion taught her that, do you?] I just felt like pointing out some recent evidence of the life situation of some Palestinians and how that could be. I agree that threatening the lives of the Palestinians and beating them if they do not leave their land is not equivalent to actually killing people, and I do not believe that bombing civilians from airplanes is exactly equivalent to wearing a bomb into a crowd either, but then I never claimed equivalence in our two offerings. I just showed another piece of very recent news. Just like you did. But you are unquestionably right in another part of your response, some of the things that some people do, and some of the things that all governments do, just make people sick. At least they do me.

I had a much better opinion

NCD — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:59:29 +0000

In reply to Your hatred of the Jewish

I had a much better opinion of your moral bearing Bruce before your hysterical response. It is always the easy way out to block out inconvenient facts like the incident I mentioned by waving the banner of 'hate'.

I suppose you also feel the Jews of Gush Shalom, who have put their lives on the line to prevent abuse of Palestinians, also hate Israel. Gush Shalom members went to the extent of recording which Israeli pilots bombed civilians in Gaza in order to send their names to international authorities. Nothing ever came of it but it may have restrained the killing. I particularly admire Uri Avnery, and his support for secularism, justice and peace in the region.

Oh Lulu, equivalence is the

Bruce Levine — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:20:20 +0000

In reply to The United Nations Security

Oh Lulu, equivalence is the hobgoblin of, well I don't think your mind is little at all. But really, you cannot even accept how vile it is to teach children that it is good to grow up to be a suicide bomber without an explanation and a referral to another Hebe who agrees with you. And that's why the American People are so in love with the State of Israel, because they are baffled by the kind of equivalence arguments people make to justify what is beyond defensible. It ain't AIPAC--it's what makes people sick.

Your hatred of the Jewish

Bruce Levine — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:17:00 +0000

In reply to Vile, yet on the morality

Your hatred of the Jewish state is so clear there is no reason to respond. But the spiritual leader you refer to directed the intentional murder of hundreds of innocent Israelis, Jews and non-Jews. I say the death of your geriatric spiritual murderer of innocents was far more justified than teaching children about the merits of suicide attacks against innocent civilians. And I'll meet my maker on that one.

And calling Gaza an open-air prison is so passe'. It's not true. In the first place, Gaza has a border with Egypt and please don't tell me that Israel still controls what Egypt does. In the second place the living standards of Gaza exceed those in almost any other Arab state in the region. Move on to other reason to hate the Jewish State, really.

But you've obfuscated. You justified telling that it's OK to tell children to grow up to become suicide bombers. And there are plenty of places on the internets where you can just say shit like that and preach to the choir.

The United Nations Security

A Guy Called LULU — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:52:25 +0000

In reply to Released Prisoner tells Palestinian Children to Become Suicide Bombers

The United Nations Security Council describes Terrorism as "any act intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population …

U.S. Department of Defense defined Terrorism as “The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence intended to intimidate societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EKzNrNhTu5w#!

A description of the event in the video by an Israeli peace actvistist available is available here.

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/39369

Vile, yet on the morality

NCD — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:18:53 +0000

In reply to Released Prisoner tells Palestinian Children to Become Suicide Bombers

Vile, yet on the morality scale, how much worse than the State of Israel killing a blind quadriplegic geriatric 'spiritual leader' in a wheelchair and half a dozen others, outside a mosque in the open air prison of Gaza, with a helicopter fired missile?