dagblog - Comments for "Thank You, Veterans"

One of the things I really

AmericanDreamer — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:09:42 +0000

One of the things I really appreciate about the parts of military culture I've had experience with is the "can do" attitude. There's a mentality, reflected in your comment, that, on being given a task, responds immediately by accepting the question as, ok, how are we going to get this done? Instead of hemming and hawing and saying well, I don't know, boss, I don't know if we can get this done.

I find it really refreshing given how many folks civilian side come off to me as jaded and negative. It can be problematic in the military when folks accept a mission when they really don't have adequate resources to accomplish it. In Woodward's book on AfPak troop level decisions it would have been helpful if military-side folks "negotiating" with Obama were more skeptical as to what the mission actually was, whether there was a doable mission that was also meaningful from a national security standpoint (no). Instead the questions all seemed to assume a doable and meaningful mission, with the main issue how many troops were needed. So there was a kind of groupthink that seemed to dominate that discussion where no one was fundamentally questioning the mission, just how it was going to get done.

During the Vietnam War era there are some accounts suggesting George Ball at the State Department was the only one asking the threatening "why?" questions and he was dismissed by LBJ as kind of a crank and "oh, that's just George" when he turned out to be right on a lot of things others were badly wrong about.

Hard to say how much of the military "can do" culture is "transferable" to a fully civilian-side application. How much of it is the people, who will take that culture with them wherever they go after they leave the military, versus how much of that culture gets lost when that happens even where some of the same folks are involved?

I can't help but think we could use more of the can do mindset applied to basically civilian side research, development, and engineering challenges such as alternative energy products and systems. The sheer determination and energy and commitment of military folks to accomplish what they're asked to is enormously impressive to me, even though it does sometimes have the down side to it that I referenced. Skeptics who will ask the hardest questions about proposed plans of action are essential no matter how unpopular they tend to be.

Probably extremely unpopular views here at generally anti-military dag and so I won't be surprised if I get some major blowback on this.

Thanks for sharing your

AmericanDreamer — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 04:31:15 +0000

In reply to I've been thinking a lot

Thanks for sharing your further thoughts, which I appreciate.

In all sincerity, I do not believe our "freedom," or "our way of life" or however it can be put, is defended by soldiers with guns.

A neighbor has a car bumpersticker which reads "Home of the Free Because of the Brave." For me that is absurd. It is saying yes to hero worship+ and I definitely do not go there as a general matter for all who have served, or for our military institutions or practices. It also suggests that if we did not have the military we currently have we would not be a free country in the senses that we are. And I don't agree with that at all, either.

I don't go as far as you do in thinking a military unnecessary in the world we live in today. I think we have overinvested in our military capacity relative to other relatively more important needs at this time, though. In that sense, I believe we have weakened our society with that over-investment. We spend about as much on our military as the rest of the world combined. The Cold War has been over for two decades but we haven't downsized appropriately. Remember all the hooha about a "peace dividend" in the wake of the end of the Cold War?

In some cases fellow citizens are serving in significant part because opportunities which well-to-do families make available to their kids and don't think twice about are not available to them. And that is wrong that young people should have to volunteer for potential combat duty in order to access such opportunities, I agree.

I see a major difference between hero worship versus the kind of simple gratitude that consists in saying thank you and treating our veterans right and with respect. If we had no Veterans Day, but treated our veterans with respect and consistently did right by them, I'd think that an improvement. Having the former doesn't seem to have led to the latter in some important respects.

Veterans pay the heaviest

Resistance — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 03:21:37 +0000

In reply to Lulu, you are right,

Veterans pay the heaviest price when the nation's institutions fail, it is that risk they take that distinguishes their honorable service.

That is one perspective

Here's another

When the early Christians, including the Apostles; refused military service to support the Roman rulers; it was they who were sacrificed in the arena. I think that is too heavy a price to pay, for a dedicated life to promote peace.

Then as now; War serves war profiteers.

I've been thinking a lot

kyle flynn — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:43:00 +0000

In reply to Please, someone articulate

I've been thinking a lot about this AD, and I'd really like to agree with you, but I just can't get there. It isn't that I'm declining to convey gratitude. It's that I don't have any to begin with that has me thinking critically of this holiday. In all sincerity, I do not believe our "freedom," or "our way of life" or however it can be put, is defended by soldiers with guns. I do not share your opinion that we need a military.

Let me be perfectly clear here. I do not begrudge anyone for joining the military. I believe the vast majority serve honorably. And I appreciate what a lousy beat it can be. I just don't go where you do from there. Every young man or woman who enlists in the United States Armed Services represents a terrible, collective failure. Acknowledging this fact ought to be the first step in changing our ways of thinking and doing, as you suggest. And the appropriate response to Veterans Day toward our veterans should reflect this. Instead of saying "thank you," we need to say "we're sorry." We're sorry we didn't do more to keep you from the battlefield. We're sorry we didn't do better to provide the meaningful opportunities you deserve here at home. We're sorry we choose war when we could make peace.

Lulu, you are right,

NCD — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:48:57 +0000

In reply to "I am grateful for their

Lulu, you are right, Veteran's Day should not now, or ever, have been about hero worship.

The election of George W. Bush marked a turning point in post WW2 US history. I have pointed out numerous times, George W. Bush should stand trial for the supreme international crime of starting an aggressive war. The Iraq War was not 'business as usual' for the United States. It was not Vietnam. In Vietnam a war had been going for about 10 years. We entered after the French left. We fought on the side of an existing government and existing army on the losing side of a civil war. I think we were wrong, but it wasn't like Iraq.

Iraq was at peace. Those in the military who trusted their government not to use them in an illegal war were deceived, many were sent to their deaths. Bush even sent part-time National Guard members to war. National Guard had not been used for combat since WW2.

Veteran's Day is an international holiday which started on Nov. 11, 1918 to commemorate the victims of WW1, and celebrate the peace and end to that deadly, destructive 'war to end all wars'. It isn't for the politicians or the Generals, it thanks the common citizens, those who chose to serve the nation in what they would expect to be just causes, vital to the nation, and as a last resort to confront real threats. That Iraq did not meet that standard is a fault of Bush and the recent GOP administration, those individuals and corporations who funded them, the Supreme Court, the media and most of all the electorate who helped to put them in power. Veterans pay the heaviest price when the nation's institutions fail, it is that risk they take that distinguishes their honorable service.

It just goes to show, the

Resistance — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:02:38 +0000

In reply to Being the simple minded sort,

It just goes to show, the devil; the original manslayer, is crafty.

Being the simple minded sort,

wabby — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:30:55 +0000

In reply to Thank You, Veterans

Being the simple minded sort, I'd always thought Veteran's Day was to recognize that inside every military uniform was a human being, as well as a soldier.

I had no idea it was so much more complicated.

Better for us if your

Resistance — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:01:57 +0000

In reply to and if suddenly everyone in

Better for us if your question was posed to our leaders.

What would happen if there was no one in our military and other countries knew this?

What happens to a Nations national defense effort, when the people realize

the indoctrinating rote of .......... ♫ and to the Republic for which it stands ...... with liberty and justice for ALL ♫

Is no more than jingoism to get you to lay down YOUR life; to protect the liberty and justice for SOME?

Would you defend and fight to the death; giving your blood as a sacrifice, if you knew you weren't a member of the sub-group SOME? You're just the sucker?

"it is not yours to question why but it is yours to do or die"?

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL35F522DB9E8B527E&feature=viewall

Ask our leaders what happens; if a nations people figure it out and they get angry and as an act of defiance, not only do they unvolunteer, they refuse to serve?

Liberty and Justice for ALL was betrayed from within. for the benefit of SOME

♫ "What are we fighting for

don't ask me I don't give a damn

next stop is Vietnam ♫

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4xD8j8ye9k

I suspect we would become

Anonymous — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:01:49 +0000

In reply to and if suddenly everyone in

I suspect we would become victims of those seeking World domination?

Just as some of the other weaker countries have found when we've had a hand in overthrowing their governments.

.........and to the Republic for which it stands ....with liberty and justice FOR SOME

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL35F522DB9E8B527E&feature=viewall

You are so witty in the way

Elusive Trope — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 07:09:24 +0000

In reply to With luck, some country or

You are so witty in the way you avoid addressing the issue at hand.