dagblog - Comments for "Umberto Eco: 'It's culture, not war, that cements European identity'"

Especially if there are

Erica — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:04:37 +0000

In reply to Intermarriage forces things

Especially if there are grandchildren involved.

I know it's crazy but it totally works.

the Roma, whom you address in

artappraiser — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:30:47 +0000

In reply to I'm just about to begin Eco's

the Roma, whom you address in another news link above,

Yeah, I definitely realized when I was posting it that I was countering all the positive hopey stuff in this thread, including the Guardian/Europa interactive that so good naturedly addresses all the ethnic stereotype stuff. I ran across the Roma story after I posted those two, and felt for a moment that maybe I should self-censor and not post that, not ruin the mood for everyone else as it was doing for me. But when I started to read the middle part about the Kristallnacht-type pogrom, I couldn't not post it.

The way I look at it is that in every mixed society there is always going to prejudice against or hatred for certain groups, and that often turns into self-fulfilling prophecies and vicious circles. If a group is turned into a scapegoat and demonized, based on the behavior of some, there is often little choice left for them but to turn more towards behaviors that caused some of the prejudice in the first place.

But but but the pogrom behavior, it is so so crucial for government to attack it as criminal as soon as the slightest hint of it is there, so crucial to protect minority groups that way! You can't stop hate speech but you can criminalize their actions. It is such an easy line to draw, where to stop the vicious circles. There is no excuse that the Hungarian government can give for letting those thugs and goons do what they did. It is scary to even see a government let it go on for an hour much less days.

Intermarriage forces things

artappraiser — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 22:41:38 +0000

In reply to Whenever he gets tired

Intermarriage forces things on this front as well, (without government attempts at social engineering,) hence the sex idea along with the Erasmus idea. I've seen it in my own family, how it works--it can change even the lifelong beliefs of 80-year-olds about "the other," almost miraculously.

Whenever he gets tired

Elusive Trope — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:24:28 +0000

In reply to Umberto Eco: 'It's culture, not war, that cements European identity'

Whenever he gets tired climbing a flight of stairs, he jokes: "Eh, my friend, we're not 70 any more!"

The chuckle for the day.

Bslev makes an important point:

Europe's real challenge in this respect would seem to be the long overdue integration of the Roma, whom you address in another news link above, and of course the absolutely abysmal record that just about every European country has had thus far in welcoming and accommodating the increasing numbers of immigrants from North Africa and other largely Islamic countries.

To the second issue, it isn't just at the foot of the European countries that the accommodation has not gone so well. The issue brings up the clash between the ideal of respecting all cultures and maintaining a set of cultural values. At what point should one do as the Romans do when in Rome? And when should Romans accommodate those who do it differently?

The Roma also bring up the issue raised by diasporic nations. For many in the modern world, we tie our national identity to the political states in which we reside. Americans on this side of the border, Canadians on that side of the border. The identity attachment slides down the scale, so the Washingtonians will come to hate the invading California's for ruining the "culture" (while driving up the prices of houses).

So Eco seems to be looking for a way to get people to embrace a flexible identity. Which is different than the political institutions in which the individuals move about. As he says:

Europe will never be the United States of Europe, a single country with a common language like the USA

But that doesn't mean there can't be a European identity. It is also possible that there becomes a North American identity - one in which the individuals in Canada, US, and Mexico see themselves as distinct group, as "one" people. Although I would assume individuals proposing this would get even more virulent reactions than Eco has encountered from Welsh mayors and anchormen.

But having a flexible identity is a tricky thing. People in general want to believe their identity, who their "self" is, is as tangible as the rocks and clouds. Getting them to consider expanding the definition, or even to completely turn it on its head is a challenge of a life time. Yet if they shift themselves, as with Erasmus idea, almost unnoticed by them in the living out of a life, then it becomes more plausible. It is the difference between forced integration and voluntary (if not unconscious) integration.

Then we are back to the North African and Islamic immigrants, who do not want to integrate culturally with their host countries. It is a story played out over the centuries, but only as of late has the idea that the host country should limit their demand of integration been considered at all.

I just got Jerusalem-A

Bruce Levine — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:10:07 +0000

In reply to About a month ago I heard an

I just got Jerusalem-A Biography. For some reason I had it delivered to my office by mistake and it's so thick I still haven't taken it home! But it traces the history of the city back over 3,000 years and is supposed to be absolutely riveting. Montefiore, the author, is a descendant of Sir Moses Montefiore, who in the middle of the 19th century funded the what I believe was the first community outside of the walls of the old city, in a what is now called Yemin Moshe, just off from where the King David Hotel is located and basically right on the west side of the Green Line. He built a windmill hoping that the people would move out of the squalid conditions they were living in inside the walls and use the windmill to grind wheat into flour. I don't think it worked out very well, but the windmill is still there. Anyway, I'll get to the book eventually but by all accounts it is fascinating in terms of how it brings to life all of the many peoples who have lived there over the millenia. Warts and all, Jerusalem remains a very magical place.

Amen brother.

Bruce Levine — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 20:55:38 +0000

In reply to Those of us who hope for a

Amen brother.

Coincidentally, the same

acanuck — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 20:26:59 +0000

In reply to Yeah, it's by a guy named

Coincidentally, the same person who recommended Jerusalem also urged me to read Eco's Prague Cemetery. It's high on my to-do list.

Yeah, it's by a guy named

acanuck — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 20:23:24 +0000

In reply to About a month ago I heard an

Yeah, it's by a guy named Montefiore. I haven't read it myself, but on the strength of a very enthusiastic recommendation I purchased it as a Christmas gift for someone else with an interest in the Mideast. My long-range plan is to borrow it after the recipient reads it.

About a month ago I heard an

Oxy Mora — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 20:00:34 +0000

In reply to Those of us who hope for a

About a month ago I heard an author interview, can't remember where, on a book called "Jerusalem--a Biography" and have been meaning to track the book down. It posits Jerusalem as a distinct entity and deals with the incredible diversity within it. Has anyone read it, assuming I got the title right?

I've always secretly believed

erica20 — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 19:32:19 +0000

In reply to This is so sweet. An 80-year

I've always secretly believed that the real reasons for the success of the Marshall plan lay in the interactions of charming young European women, handsome American fellows, and a certain amount of plum schnapps. (There were also quite a few lovely American women who went overseas and found themselves in this virtuous circle of diplomacy as well.)

I have also wondered if our efforts in the Middle East have been somewhat stymied by the culture-based proscriptions against socializing in the Muslim world, and perhaps by our leaders' message to the troops that all Muslims are the enemy. (To be fair, not all our leaders sent that message to the troops, but quite a few did.)

dagblog - Comments for "Umberto Eco: 'It's culture, not war, that cements European identity'"

Especially if there are

the Roma, whom you address in

Intermarriage forces things

Whenever he gets tired

I just got ​Jerusalem-A

Amen brother.

Coincidentally, the same

Yeah, it's by a guy named

About a month ago I heard an

I've always secretly believed

I just got Jerusalem-A