dagblog - Comments for "Fear And The Coming Collapse Of Civilization:"

I was going to wait and

Richard Day — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 23:55:18 +0000

In reply to Q: Are we not men? A: We are

I was going to wait and comment on this 1/2 post later. hahahhahahahah

But damn!

DEVO!

Short for devolution instead of evolution which is so ironic today in the face of the new Tennessee law encasing the real emotions of the Scopes trial as exhibited by men of the Bible so to speak!

I was lost 4 years ago when I discovered, much to my dismay, that we never, as a people, got over the threshold of knowledge that I thought we had.

The designists (I forgot what they were called) were just a front for creationists which were just a front for crazed fundamentalists and all these peeps simply wished to get 'back' to some backward interpretation of a bible that was simply a book retranslated over the millennia.

2 + 5 = 39?

Okay.

So our children; tomorrow's students should eschew time honored functions?

I am lost and I am angry and I cannot find my way home!

I am always, always, always sent back to this:

Q: Are we not men? A: We are

Elusive Trope — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:33:09 +0000

In reply to If we could just figure out

Q: Are we not men?

A: We are Devo.

If we could just figure out

MrSmith1 — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:53:40 +0000

In reply to Fear And The Coming Collapse Of Civilization:

If we could just figure out how to clone a Neanderthal-Luddite hybrid ...

Silly boy.

cmaukonen — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:25:20 +0000

In reply to This is where the people who

Silly boy.

This is where the people who

Elusive Trope — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:06:58 +0000

In reply to Does anyone realistically

This is where the people who believe technology advancements will save the day. There is a way that the wealthy can have their private schools while operating in an environmentally sustainable manner. The notion is based on the belief that one can live sustainably and not have to live an austere life.

One little example is development of cars that are made from 95% recyclable materials. I lived in Seattle when they began their recycling program, and pretty soon one saw a good portion of the 20% people sorting their stuff into the four kinds of bins (now you can throw it all into one bin). When it is made convenient, the 20% is willing to jump onto the lightrails in order to commute into work. Then there is the Evil WalMart using a new kind of asphalt for their parking lots which allows the rainwater to drain into the earth below.

The question is all of these little things going to be enough to stop the environmental implosion? I doubt it. But if a way is found, it will be because we found a way for people to live a sustainable lifestyle that is similar to one they are living now.

I can't say I am very

Elusive Trope — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 18:51:12 +0000

In reply to This is all pretty grim stuff

I can't say I am very optimistic about our prospects. Just looking at population and desertification trends is enough to send one into the doom and gloom mindset. I think the best we can hope for is to set up the possible solutions for when the proverbial poop hit the fan, so people won't have to start from scratch.

The one thing that will save us I think is what seems to be an almost biological imperative to gather in social groupings. Human history is as much about people's willingness to make sacrifices for the sake of civilization. The thing that was interesting about the series Deadwood was in spite of everything, even those who left "civilization" behind for the wild west still formed some kind of civilization. Maybe it is just an impulse to gravitate toward the orderly.

All of which indicates a likelihood people will willingly join a dystopian society rather than deal with chaos of anarchy and war.

Does anyone realistically

cmaukonen — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 18:14:17 +0000

In reply to Fear And The Coming Collapse Of Civilization:

Does anyone realistically believe that the - not 1% but top 20% - will be willing to make the kinds of life style sacrifices necessary and live the austere kind of life needed for a sustainable economy ?

Reality check ! They go ballistic when they cannot send their kids to the private school of choice.

This is all pretty grim stuff

A Guy Called LULU — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 18:05:07 +0000

In reply to One of the books that I came

This is all pretty grim stuff if you are trying to plan for and prepare for living in 2060 and beyond. I probably won't still be around at the age of one hundred and thirteen, but my kids will, I hope, be about my age then and my grandchildren will be entering middle age and likely have kids of their own.
Paul Gilding offers hope and optimism along with his warning just like the authors of The Limits of Growth do, but I think it is unrealistic to expect that any worldwide planned action significant enough to bring about the second summary conclusion in Limits will happen. Nature will do the winnowing, it will be extremely harsh and unforgiving, and then the surviving humanity will try to hang on and recover to whatever extent it can.

2. It is possible to alter these growth trends and to establish a condition of ecological and economic stability that is sustainable far into the future. The state of global equilibrium could be designed so that the basic material needs of each person on earth are satisfied and each person has an equal opportunity to realize his or her individual human potential.

Yeah, it is possible, but don't bet on it. Altering the growth trends means controlling birth rates. It is hard to imagine a smooth transition from way too many people to a much smaller sustainable number and keeping the number low would require enforcement of reproduction limits.

Smithsonian had an article

Donal — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:26:39 +0000

In reply to Fear And The Coming Collapse Of Civilization:

Smithsonian had an article Looking Back on the Limits of Growth, and hosted a symposium, Perspectives on Limits to Growth: Challenges to Building a Sustainable Planet. The first several presentations were rather dull, but the 48 minute youtube by Dennis Meadows was interesting.

One of the books that I came

Elusive Trope — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 15:52:27 +0000

In reply to Fear And The Coming Collapse Of Civilization:

One of the books that I came across that had an immediate impact on my worldview was Meadows, Meadows and Randers' Beyond the Limits of Growth, which was a follow up to the original The Limits of Growth in 1972.

From the Beyond:

The book was interpreted by many as a prediction of doom, but it was not a prediction at all. It was not about a preordained future. It was about a choice. It contained a warning, to be sure, but also a message of promise. Here are the three summary conclusions we wrote in 1972. The second of them is the promise, a very optimistic one, but our analysis justified it then and still justifies it now. Perhaps we should have listed it first.

1. If the present growth trends in world population, industrialization, pollution, food production, and resource depletion continue unchanged, the limits to growth on this planet will be reached sometime within the next 100 years. The most probable result will be a sudden and uncontrollable decline in both population and industrial capacity.

2. It is possible to alter these growth trends and to establish a condition of ecological and economic stability that is sustainable far into the future. The state of global equilibrium could be designed so that the basic material needs of each person on earth are satisfied and each person has an equal opportunity to realize his or her individual human potential.

3. If the world's people decide to strive for this second outcome rather than the first, the sooner they begin working to attain it, the greater will be their chances of success. (Meadows et al., 1972)

As it turns out (from Wikipedia)

In a 2009 article published in American Scientist titled "Revisiting the Limits to Growth After Peak Oil," Hall and Day noted that "the values predicted by the limits-to-growth model and actual data for 2008 are very close." ^[23] These findings are consistent with a 2010 study titled "A Comparison of the Limits of Growth with Thirty Years of Reality" which concluded: "The analysis shows that 30 years of historical data compares favorably with key features… [of the Limits to Growth] ‘standard run’ scenario, which results in collapse of the global system midway through the 21st Century." ^[24]