dagblog - Comments for "Supply-Side Jesus Is a Lie"

Imagine it written in Greek,

PeraclesPlease — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 04:57:12 +0000

In reply to You see, still so much more

Imagine it written in Greek, or worse, Arabic (only 3 vowels, but only implied, not written)

Might as well not discuss?

erica20 — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 01:58:55 +0000

In reply to Didn't see a wealth test for

Might as well not discuss? !!?!??! (cue sound effects of apoplectic rage)

You see, still so much more

erica20 — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 01:56:43 +0000

In reply to I think the original Greek

You see, still so much more diplomatic than I!

When thoroughly provoked, my ultimate is "Bugger off, douchenozzel." And speaking of spelling choices, I do spell it "douchenozzel" in my mind in that particular circumstance--the genteel "le" ending could have the unfortunate effect of inviting further discussion, and the "el" ending seems more definite.

Yeah, I'm funny that way.

In order to be a citizen, you

Verified Atheist — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 16:59:28 +0000

In reply to Didn't see a wealth test for

In order to be a citizen, you had to be male, both of your parents had to be citizens—presumably there was some sort of grandfathering (and grandmothering) clause, and you had to be a landowner. That last bit is a kicker, especially because both of your parents also had to be citizens, meaning they also had to be landowners. Keep in mind that Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac didn't come into existence until 38 AD (or possibly some time after that) so being a landowner was no simple feat. I do suspect that with enough money/power you could bend those rules a bit, but that was surely the exception.

Also, there was a system of democracy in place in Athens as late as the 1st century BC (less than 100 years before Jesus' birth), albeit somewhat more corrupted from its apex under Pericles, and no one ever even hinted that the Jews expected the Romans to give them a democracy.

Edit to add: it's worth pointing out that the situation wasn't significantly better in the United States prior to 1850, when property ownership was removed from being a requirement for voting. And, as you point out, women couldn't vote until 1920.

I think the original Greek

PeraclesPlease — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:46:55 +0000

In reply to Now I officially feel bad

I think the original Greek was "makes me no nevermind", or paraphrased, "pay him in shekels for all I care".

?? ????έ????...

PeraclesPlease — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:45:23 +0000

In reply to ??????ῆ? ??????ή?, ???????ώ

αν επιμένετε...

Didn't see a wealth test for

PeraclesPlease — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:41:41 +0000

In reply to Yes, that's true. All the

Didn't see a wealth test for citizenship in original democracy.

If you include foreigners & slaves, a small percentage. In any case, women didn't have the vote most places until 90 years ago or less (Switzerland in the 1970's), so might as well not discuss.

And we're a long way from whether Jews expected democracy under a Roman imperialist system 500 years later.

Yes, that's true. All the

Doctor Cleveland — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:23:08 +0000

In reply to Had it covered with

Yes, that's true. All the Athenian citizens voted. But that doesn't mean the poor got to vote.

It means they didn't get counted as citizens.

"Everybody voting directly" sounds like utopia. But really, you're only talking about a small percentage of the population as "everybody."

As for Lysistrata showing that Athens was less sexist ... sorry, no.

Had it covered with

PeraclesPlease — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 06:02:49 +0000

In reply to You're making a distinction

Had it covered with Lysistrata. While not actually encoded in law, it's an amazing paean to gender equality that never would have come out of imperialist Rome.

As for the rest (early Athenian democracy when citizenship wasn't capped):

Direct, not representative

The biggest difference between Athenian democracy and almost all subsequent democracies is that the Athenian version was remarkably direct rather than being representative. With a few exceptions, Athenians didn't vote for politicians to represent them; all Athenians voted on just about every law or policy the city was to adopt. Shall we fight the Spartans? The people vote and decide. Raise taxes? Build a navy? The people decide.

A limited role for officials

To make the government run, the Athenians did have to have public officials, of course. But they took radical measures to limit their power. Most public offices in the developed Athenian democracy were chose by lot, i.e., were chosen randomly. All those citizens willing to serve in a certain office put their names forward, and the winner was chosen rather like we choose lottery numbers. The Greeks considered this the most democratic way of choosing officials, for it ensured that all citizens, whether prominent, popular, rich, or not, had an equal chance to serve. (It may also have been considered a way of letting the gods pick the right people for the right jobs.) There were thousands of public offices chosen this way; and in almost all cases, an individual could hold a given office only once. Most offices were relatively unimportant, and far from full time work. But the sheer number of offices ensured that not only did the Athenians vote directly on most issues of state; most of them served many times during their lives as public officials.

Now I officially feel bad

erica20 — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 23:37:41 +0000

In reply to Er, Peracles, I'm not

Now I officially feel bad about having brought it up. Peracles, you can spell your name whatever way you want.

(But I'm gonna stick to my idea that Jesus wasn't telling people they oughta pay their taxes 'cause Caesar was such a great guy, and pretty much made it clear to the hecklers that he thought they were assholes, which also applies to his conversation with Pilate later on. Not that Jesus would ever say that to their face.)