dagblog - Comments for "Too Progressive for Obama? Vote Obama"

Nixon wasn't called "Tricky

Resistance — Sat, 09 Jun 2012 13:37:32 +0000

In reply to Too Progressive for Obama? Vote Obama

Nixon wasn't called "Tricky Dick" for no reason

Our generation was sick of the War .

We would have elected the devil, to end the needless sacrifice.

The thing is, the economy was good under Nixon (and Reagan).

Towards the end of the VN war, when pressure was mounting; the thought or "vibes" was, Nixon and the war supporters, would get even with the generation, that forced an end.

As evident today, it's the baby boomers (the draft aged kids of the 60's) who have been and are continually being screwed big time.

The war profiteers, the monied interests, have consistently tried to stick the peace movement, for interfering in their plans of enriching themselves.

"We'll teach you hippies with your socialist ideas; to interfere in our capitalist endeavors"

"You'll be sorry you ended the War that made us money"

Reply at bottom of page.

Resistance — Sat, 09 Jun 2012 13:20:18 +0000

In reply to Yes, and I supported McCarthy

Reply at bottom of page.

Yes, and I supported McCarthy

Peter Schwartz — Sat, 09 Jun 2012 13:03:57 +0000

In reply to I think Nixon was an

Yes, and I supported McCarthy with my body, though I was too young to vote. I would have supported RFK the same way. And I supported HHH when he won.

It is true, Nixon promised to get us out and he did.

The comparison between him and Obama is a little dicier, but I'm not sure it matters much. Consider this:

• Nixon had already seen the unpopularity of the war and how a president, who had won in a landslide and done much, had been ousted by the war.

• He probably (though I don't know) saw that VN wasn't worth fighting over and may even have had inklings of opening talks with China. Remember, the big fear around VN was that it would fall under China's control.

• Arguably, much more is at stake in Iraq and Afghanistan/Pakistan than was at stake in VN. VN fell and what happened? So "just pulling out" is probably a trickier option.

• AQ is an enemy with whom it will probably be impossible to "sign a peace treaty" as we did with the VNese. It was much more of a conventional war than this conflict, which can't really be called a war at all.

Anyway, I don't say all this to justify what Obama has done, but just to point out some differences that might be important.

Anyway, good chatting with you, as always.

Yes, by reasonable metrics he

PeraclesPlease — Sat, 09 Jun 2012 00:15:41 +0000

In reply to But 4 decades later, you're

Yes, by reasonable metrics he ended the the war in 1 term. If it's "getting the term paper in by 5pm", he didn't quite. What is your point?

I think Nixon was an

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 23:54:08 +0000

In reply to So what exactly is your point

I think Nixon was an asshole.

But he said he'd get the US out of Vietnam, and he did, in roughly 1 term. 500,000 troops.

(I assume "honorable peace" meant trying to not let South Vietnam be overrun, which it was anyway. While our bombing of Cambodia was horrific, North Vietnam's use of Cambodia as a supply and attack route was criminal)

I can only surmise whether Hubert Humphrey, the war VP, would have been as fast.

I can better guess that RFK would have been faster, as would have McCarthy.

I know Obama would have been slower. Much slower.

Just to put a button this for

Peter Schwartz — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 23:24:48 +0000

In reply to So what exactly is your point

Just to put a button this for me at least...

If you think Nixon was a better president, a more peace-loving guy, more in tune with the Constitution, than Obama, I'm fine with your thinking that.

I don't have any more to say on this.

So what exactly is your point

Peter Schwartz — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 23:19:25 +0000

In reply to You're too funny. Nixon's

So what exactly is your point in all this PP?

That Nixon got out quicker than Obama has?

Even Nixon got out quicker?

That it was cool for Nixon to bomb Cambodia because maybe it brought the NV to the table more quickly? That's an excuse that you would otherwise decry.

I mean, if Nixon wanted "peace," why didn't he just pull out starting day one? "Peace with honor" wasn't tongue in cheek, nor was it a sleight of hand.

It was, "I don't want to preside over America losing its first war."

By progressive standards, all those extra years were a sin. The fact that Obama has more years in is meaningless. Maybe he has more years, but fewer deaths.

What's the big deal here for you?

The reason I brought up "law and order" was that that was Nixon's MAIN appeal, likely the one that got him elected, and a better definition of his presidency overall.

Regardless of intentions, demonstrating in Chicago really only served to help Nixon get elected--it certainly didn't help McCarthy--and give us four more years of war. It certainly didn't lead to a progressive result. In foreign policy.

If you're a big fan of Nixon, fine. I think he did some good things, too. I would have preferred HHH at the time. We'll never know what he would have done, but that's where I would have put my money.

Would you have voted for Nixon...based on all the good things you didn't know he was going to do?

I'm not sure why you think I support the war or the cesspool for, etc., etc. I participate in all the anti-war marches that I can and give to a whole variety of progressive causes.

What I don't support is supporting the "Nixon" we have before us (either directly, indirectly, or by damaging my candidate) because once upon a time the original Nixon ended a war in four years and my guy hasn't.

I do back the Constitution and that's why I back the guy who comes the closest to that goal, IMO, and otherwise has the best policies that will do the most good for the most people. In Romney's case, we have to guess a little bit what he would do, and we also have to guess a bit what Obama will do in a second term.

If the Constitution were running for president, I would vote for it. Unfortunately, we have two people running for office.

I make a relative judgment and weigh a lot of issues (not just one) because there are two people and one of them will end up in the office and neither of them is anywhere close to perfect. Nonetheless, I want the better person in there.

In any event, it's strange for you to be arguing for abiding by the Constitution AND for Nixon as a man of peace--or whatever your point is.

But 4 decades later, you're

Peter Schwartz — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:35:29 +0000

In reply to You're too funny. Nixon's

But 4 decades later, you're unable to acknowledge reality, that Nixon ended the war in 1 term, despite all his faults.

This is what you said, PP.

You're too funny. Nixon's

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:13:42 +0000

In reply to PP, all you're doing is

You're too funny. Nixon's *FOREIGN POLICY* platform that he ran on was honorable peace.

I said he got a peace agreement *3 days after his 2nd inauguration*, signed *7 days after his 2nd inauguration* (when the last US soldier died), in effect 28 Jan 1973. Yes, he barely missed 1st term, unlike Obama at *2 years 11 months* into his 2nd term.

Your stupid little datum is after he drew down 400,000 he drew another 70,000 to end 1972 at 24,000. Wow, you managed to find a pony in all that shit to wave for the Democrats - ain't you grand. You qualify as overtly and obsessively partisan - badges given at the exit doors.

(what you might have noted was that often in presidential election years, candidates respond to pressure. *IF THEY'RE PRESSURED*. But you guys just want to support the president and the war and his cesspool of renditions/detainments/drones/and whatever just because Romney might oh might use them worse.

If we backed the Constitution instead of the President, no one would be able to use illegal means - how about that as a more elegant solution?

PP, all you're doing is

Peter Schwartz — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 13:58:00 +0000

In reply to Whether "No one on the left

PP, all you're doing is making the excuses for Nixon in hindsight you accuse me of making for Obama. What's the point of this?

The war didn't end until his second term.

Nixon ran on a law and order platform.

Here's a timeline picked up at random. It would appear he drew down his 70,000 under pressure from Democrats, which perhaps supports your strategy, though isn't an HHH disqualifier, IMO--though, who knows?

ichard Nixon Elected President: Running on a platform of "law and order," Richard Nixon barely beats out Hubert Humphrey for the presidency. Nixon takes just 43.4 percent of the popular vote, compared to 42.7 percent for Humphrey. Third-party candidate George Wallace takes the remaining percentage of votes.

1969

Nixon Begins Secret Bombing of Cambodia: In an effort to destroy Communist supply routes and base camps in Cambodia, President Nixon gives the go-ahead to "Operation Breakfast." The covert bombing of Cambodia, conducted without the knowledge of Congress or the American public, will continue for fourteen months.

Policy of "Vietnamization" Announced: Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird describes a policy of "Vietnamization" when discussing a diminishing role for the US military in Vietnam. The objective of the policy is to shift the burden of defeating the Communists onto the South Vietnamese Army and away from the United States.

Ho Chi Minh Dies at Age 79

News of My Lai Massacre Reaches US: Through the reporting of journalist Seymour Hersh, Americans read for the first time of the atrocities committed by Lt. William Calley and his troops in the village of My Lai. At the time the reports were made public, the Army had already charged Calley with the crime of murder.

Massive Antiwar Demonstration in DC

1970

Sihanouk Ousted in Cambodia: Prince Sihanouk's attempt to maintain Cambodia's neutrality while war waged in neighboring Vietnam forced him to strike opportunistic alliances with China, and then the United States. Such vacillating weakened his government, leading to a coup orchestrated by his defense minister, Lon Nol.

Kent State Incident: National Guardsmen open fire on a crowd of student antiwar protesters at Ohio's Kent State University, resulting in the death of four students and the wounding of eight others. President Nixon publicly deplores the actions of the Guardsmen, but cautions: "...when dissent turns to violence it invites tragedy." Several of the protesters had been hurling rocks and empty tear gas canisters at the Guardsmen.

Kissinger and Le Duc Begin Secret Talks

Number of US Troops Falls to 280K

1971

Lt. Calley Convicted of Murder

Pentagon Papers Published: A legacy of deception, concerning US policy in Vietnam, on the part of the military and the executive branch is revealed as the New York Times publishes the Pentagon Papers. The Nixon administration, eager to stop leaks of what they consider sensitive information, appeals to the Supreme Court to halt the publication. The Court decides in favor the Times and allows continued publication.

Nixon Announces Plans to Visit China: In a move that troubles the North Vietnamese, President Nixon announces his intention to visit The People's Republic of China. Nixon's gesture toward China is seen by the North Vietnamese as an effort to create discord between themselves and their Chinese allies.

Thieu Re-elected in South Vietnam

1972

Nixon Cuts Troop Levels by 70K: Responding to charges by Democratic presidential candidates that he is not moving fast enough to end US involvement in Vietnam, President Nixon orders troop strength reduced by seventy thousand.

Secret Peace Talks Revealed

B-52s Bomb Hanoi and Haiphong: In an attempt to force North Vietnam to make concessions in the ongoing peace talks, the Nixon administration orders heavy bombing of supply dumps and petroleum storage sites in and around Hanoi and Haiphong. The administration makes it clear to the North Vietnamese that no section of Vietnam is off-limits to bombing raids.

Break-In at Watergate Hotel

Kissinger Says "Peace Is At Hand": Henry Kissinger and Le Duc Tho reach agreement in principle on several key measures leading to a cease-fire in Vietnam. Kissinger's view that "peace is at hand," is dimmed somewhat by South Vietnamese President Thieu's opposition to the agreement.

Nixon Wins Reelection

1973

Cease-fire Signed in Paris: A cease-fire agreement that, in the words of Richard Nixon, "brings peace with honor in Vietnam and Southeast Asia," is signed in Paris by Henry Kissinger and Le Duc Tho. The agreement is to go into effect on January 28.

End of Draft Announced

Last American Troops Leave Vietnam

Hearings on Secret Bombings Begin: The Senate Armed Services Committee opens hearing on the US bombing of Cambodia. Allegations are made that the Nixon administration allowed bombing raids to be carried out during what was supposed to be a time when Cambodia's neutrality was officially recognized. As a result of the hearings, Congress orders that all bombing in Cambodia cease effective at midnight, August 14.

Kissinger and Le Duc Tho Win Peace Prize: The Nobel Peace Prize is awarded to Henry Kissinger of the United States and Le Duc Tho of North Vietnam. Kissinger accepts the award, while Tho declines, saying that a true peace does not yet exist in Vietnam.

1974

Thieu Announces Renewal of War

Report Cites Damage to Vietnam Ecology: According to a report issued by The National Academy of Science, use of chemical herbicides during the war caused long-term damage to the ecology of Vietnam. Subsequent inquiries will focus on the connection between certain herbicides, particularly Agent Orange, and widespread reports of cancer, skin disease, and other disorders on the part of individuals exposed to them.

Communists Take Mekong Delta Territory

Nixon Resigns

Communists Plan Major Offensive: With North Vietnamese forces in the South believed to be at their highest levels ever, South Vietnamese leaders gird themselves for an expected Communist offensive of significant proportions.