dagblog - Comments for "The European Union Should Collapse"

Actually there's quite a lot

PeraclesPlease — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 10:22:09 +0000

In reply to One huge difference is that

Actually there's quite a lot a single country can veto. Thus the EU constitution went down in flames.

One huge difference is that

Doctor Cleveland — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 09:45:55 +0000

In reply to The European Union Should Collapse

One huge difference is that the United States are actually really federalized, with a system that gives all of the states a say. (The small-state advantages built into the Constitution never look so good as when you think about the Eurozone counter-example, where a bunch of smaller countries are just stuck with whatever France and Germany can agree on.)

I think part of the idea of the Eurozone was that economic unification would naturally create more integration, without anybody having to work out an actual political unification. (It's a market-based solution.) But not only does economic unification not lead to political unification, it turns out not even to lead to real economic unification. Bad times.

The one parallel I would

SleepinJeezus — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:40:48 +0000

In reply to The European Union Should Collapse

The one parallel I would point to in the "Wisconsin/SC" vs "Germany/Greece" dynamic can be found in the Savings and Loan Crisis of the mid-to-late eighties. This was a bailout involving unprecedented amounts of federal tax dollars going to states like TX, CO, FL, AZ, CA, and others that had exercised considerably less regulatory discipline of their own S&L industry than did states like Wisconsin. I remember at the time how it felt almost biblical; like a retelling of the Prodigal Son story as we in WI were compelled to pass along our hard-earned tax dollars to these other, more "profligate" states. It was so clearly unfair at so many levels. But there was also never a question whether it should be done, and most certainly never a re-think of allowing these states to remain in the Union.

The EU is not anywhere near such stability as a republic. And I remain uncertain how it can withstand the challenges to its integrity as it maintains a demand for extreme austerity from member states whose populations might be more inclined to tell Goldman Sachs to go fuck themselves, as did Argentina and Iceland in the examples you cite. I'm just not sure whether Germany or Greece have yet gotten religion as required to make it all work. It would seem instead there is nothing but self-interest of the individual states maintaining the EU bond at this point, and these interests seem to be irreparably at odds in this crisis.

I'd separate Greece from the

PeraclesPlease — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 04:02:12 +0000

In reply to The European Union Should Collapse

I'd separate Greece from the other cases - the Greeks were simply irresponsible and used their membership both to steal and to bash Turkey (Cyprus talks, et al). Plus have only 2 industries, shipping & tourism >50% of GDP. They should be out of the Eurozone.

Spain grew a structural overdependence on the housing market, but was relatively stable economically. Other countries like Ireland had admirable growth. The EU's economic response for a freak occurrence has been ass-backwards and destructive.

I don't think this reflects much on the goals and success of the EU itself. Countries of the EU get along better than ever, integration is smooth, the consolidated policies have been successful, a reigning justice system brings some order - it's hard to see what not to like, aside from the typical concerns about too much bureaucracy (though spending at the top levels is much smaller than US gov spending).

The EU is not the Euro, and the Euro/EU economic policy has been a half effort from the beginning, with incomplete authority for fiscal policy & true spending effectiveness. The latest crisis says either take 2 steps forward, or 4 steps back.

I don't think that's off

Michael Maiello — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 00:22:06 +0000

In reply to I'm not sure that I should

I don't think that's off topic at all. I hesitated to write that part because I know there's no way that national policies work equally well for every state. But the New York response to "Let 'em Freeze in the Dark" would be... "let them live without access to the federal tax dollars generated by New Yorkers." That's not something that Ireland can so easily say to France, or vice versa.

I'm not sure that I should

A Guy Called LULU — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 00:16:04 +0000

In reply to The European Union Should Collapse

I'm not sure that I should throw this out as an early comment, pardon me if it is an off-point diversion, I don't want discussion to veer in the wrong direction, but while I think you have made some very good points that are worth considering, you may have underestimated the differences when it comes to economic problems of different groups separated by geographical borders such as between U.S. states versus European countries.

Spain is not to Germany what Wisconsin is to South Carolina.

In the early seventies during an oil crisis there were cost controls in affect. I don't recall the details but, because of price freeze regulations, Texas oil companies were forced to sell oil and gas to New York for a long standing low price while they were able to raise prices they charged Texas customers. This pissed off the locals, at least in Cowtown. A very common bumper sticker in Texas which referred to N.Y. said, "Let 'em Freeze in the Dark".