dagblog - Comments for "Is Arizona's Heat Wilting the Leaf?"

How Long Will Your Electric

Donal — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:04:53 +0000

In reply to Is Arizona's Heat Wilting the Leaf?

How Long Will Your Electric Car Battery Last? It Depends Where You Live

... how long can we realistically expect electric car battery packs to last?

The answer, it turns out, depends on where you live, and how the battery is cooled within your car.

According to the U.S. Department Of Energy’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE) and Pike Research, where you’re based in the U.S. can vary battery life as much as five years.

In a blog post last week, Pike Research battery specialist John Gartner detailed that electric car lithium ion battery packs perform their best, and last longer, if they are kept at temperatures between -10 and +30 degrees Celsius (14-86 degrees Fahrenheit).

At lower temperatures, Gartner says, battery packs cannot provide full power. Get hotter than 86 degrees Fahrenheit, and most batteries suffer premature capacity loss. ...

If you live in a state where regular summer temperatures go above 90 degrees, you’re better off buying a plug-in car with a liquid-cooled battery pack.

More Nissan Leaf Battery

Donal — Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:33:12 +0000

In reply to Is Arizona's Heat Wilting the Leaf?

More Nissan Leaf Battery Loss, Nissan Doesn’t Blink

... we contacted Nissan again, this time to ask if it had anything to add to its previous statement, and if it would advise owners to visit their local dealer if worried.

“Our original statement still applies to the questions you’re asking,” our contact at Nissan reiterated. “If the car is treated as outlined in the owner’s manual, you can expect 80 percent of the battery capacity after 5 years. Variables including driving conditions and habits could make that number higher or lower.”

By our math, there are currently no more than 20 Nissan Leafs we’re aware of at the time of writing that have experienced any capacity loss. Most, but not all are in Arizona, with the quickest example of battery capacity loss appearing after just 9 months of ownership.

Admittedly, that’s a small number compared to the total number of Leafs now on the road of the U.S., but is likely to be of little comfort to those Leaf owners who live in warmer climates like Texas, Southern California and Arizona.

On the MyNissanLeaf discussion board, owners say temperatures inside their garages can reach 100 degF, and they are wondering if batteries are getting damaged sitting outside on dealer lots.

One commenter:

It is sad to see Nissan stonewalling about this developing problem for cars in very hot climates. I hope they can figure out what to do quickly to minimize any damage to the Leaf brand. When GM had bad publicity for a non-problem (Volt fire), they got in front of the issue by offering to buy back the Volt of anyone who was concerned. The problem melted away and now the Volt is selling very well. Hiding behind that vague statement isn't going to fool the Leaf supporters (including myself), and they are the ones who have been most bullish about the Leaf. By way of disclosure, I live near the coast in Los Angeles and estimate about 5% capacity loss in my first year based on Gid-meter readings. I love my Leaf and am glad I bought one.

... which is why I posted the

Donal — Tue, 19 Jun 2012 02:20:23 +0000

In reply to From what I read, Nissan -

... which is why I posted the blog.

From what I read, Nissan -

quinn esq — Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:49:54 +0000

In reply to I defended the Volt against

From what I read, Nissan - like most companies using batteries - knows, and has told buyers, that the battery will decline somewhat over time. There has been lots of debate about whether it will tend to fall a bit early on, in a step-change, and then level off for a slower decline... or whether it will be linear over time... or slow at the start and then sharper over time. I've tended to believe you'll get an early drop, as the battery takes a real-world whack. But whatever the nature of the curve, Nissan has told owners they should expect a decline over time, and 10%-20% is the right amount.

Now.... IF the battery decline continues to 20%, 30% and so on, or the batteries brick entirely, then Nissan will, I have absolutely no doubt, step in and replace them. If not, they will utterly blow their market, bury themselves in court, and cost themselves billions as the new factory and supply lines they've established go for nought. I can't see them doing that.

On the other hand, if they act too soon, and formally announce that there's a problem, then they're opening the door to God's own hellstorm. I don't know if you've noticed, but GM has been absolutely hammered because it had a battery under testing catch fire. They became the post boy for auto hatred of the Right, and in an election year, to take up that torch could be a deathknell. It cost GM and the Volt a HUGE amount, that one fire. Not just in replacement and repair costs, but in bad PR, in factory closures, etc.

Those dumb Rightwing assholes, with their frothing madness, took an AMERICAN success story, and spiked it. The Volt being the grand attempt by the US Big 3 to reclaim the green halo from Toyota, and they pissed it away. And guess what - lookie lookie! - Toyota's back selling HUGE numbers of Priuses, Prius Plug-Ins, and the other two new Prius "family" members. Thank you, RightWing Madmen.

So there's nothing rational about this right now. Nissan will own it, if it's truly a serious problem. There's no choice. But no way on earth do they want to even say this is a problem too early. Because as soon as they do own it, even if it appears to be a manageable problem, look out - because the RW will come braying about Obama's senseless, unworkable, mad electric vehicle give-aways. When it's one thing I give him credit for.

Nissan needs to run like crazy, right now, behind the scenes, to check out the data from their cars, especially in Arizona, and then find a way to manage it, as much as possible, behind the scenes. Because out here under the hot political sun, there are madmen afoot.

I defended the Volt against

Donal — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 23:32:56 +0000

In reply to Happy to cover them. As soon

I defended the Volt against the fire story because it was bogus. But if Nissan is going to walk away from a battery problem, it affects my opinion of their vehicle.

Happy to cover them. As soon

quinn esq — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:50:52 +0000

In reply to Just thought those news items

Happy to cover them.

As soon as you start giving equal time to each breakdown and recall for conventional gas and diesel-using car... as you presently give to 10 guys whose batteries lost 15% of their capacity.

It's like battery fires. There are tens of thousands of gasoline-powered cars which catch fire each year in the US. The Volt has one catch fire during testing, and it ate headlines for months.

The selection of items to cover, while absolutely one's right, also reveals one's priorities, values, worldview. And on the issue of green cars, your \ selection lines up very solidly alongside two types of thinkers - the Stone Agers who believe we need to completely dump the car and go biking; and... the Rush Limbaugh types.

Congrats.

Meanwhile, if the US shifted to the Volt, it would basically eliminate oil imports, while slashing greenhouse gas emissions. I'm down with that.

NASA has an interesting 286

NCD — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:23:53 +0000

In reply to Is Arizona's Heat Wilting the Leaf?

NASA has an interesting 286 paper on Extreme Environment Technologies for Future Space Science Missions, published in 2007, which includes lots of interesting problems with electronics, cooling of batteries and survival of spacecraft and planetary probes in exteme environments.

Arizona doesn't yet come close to Venus for heat (hahaha), but some of the research done by NASA could aid electric car battery technology.

From NASA:

Venus - sulfuric acid clouds, missions to date surface lifetimes of two hours - temperatures of 482 degrees C (900 F), pressure = 92 BAR (92 x pressure at sea level on earth)

Batteries for Venus and other hot environments:

Longer–range possibilities include a primary battery concept from JPL using a calcium (Ca) metal anode, nickel–fluoride (NiF2) cathode, and fluoride–ion based solid–state electrolyte. Not having to cool the batteries will significantly lower the thermal load in a space mission, and if the battery can be moved outside the temperature– controlled housing, the size of the enclosure can be reduced.

To meet the needs of Roadmap missions, NASA should consider the following investments in high–temperature energy storage:

1. Characterize the performance and stability of existing primary batteries at high temperatures
(500.C) and if a promising candidate is found, select it for advanced development;
2. Develop an intermediate–temperature secondary battery (250.C) based on current lithium ion technology:and
3. Select the most successful components and create a flight–qualifiable primary and secondary battery for the 250–500.C performance range.

For those with a scientific bent the PDF is on this page: NASA Extreme Environment Technologies

Just thought those news items

Donal — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:25:31 +0000

In reply to I hear some guys on bikes got

Just thought those news items worthy of coverage as well.

Then cover them.

I hear some guys on bikes got

artappraiser — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:00:08 +0000

In reply to I hear some guys on bikes got

I hear some guys on bikes got killed

And I recently read some guys on bikes are killers! Just sayin'

I hear some guys on bikes got

quinn esq — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:28:02 +0000

In reply to Is Arizona's Heat Wilting the Leaf?

I hear some guys on bikes got killed.
Also, diesel now officially causes cancer.
And fracking for oil is working out dandy.

Just thought those news items worthy of coverage as well.

Oh yeah. Not sure you saw GM's battery announcement. Good news. They rejigged the chemistry in the Volt's battery, and so next year, 2013 models, with the same exact weight and same cost, it'll get 8% more all-electric miles per charge. Imagine that. Progress.

Also, Volt sales are way up - and, the Plug-In Prius is the 3rd fastest selling car in the US this Spring. Wooo!

Might want to check out the performance of the Volt as well. Me, I like to avoid anecdote, and there's a summary stats site that's pretyty great. It covers 1,135 of the actual owners of Volts (about 15,000 in all now) with the On-Star system automatically recording and publishing their numbers (and more daily.) Here:

http://www.voltstats.net/

Pull up the median driver - so we get both the hypermilers and the idiots out of the way - and we see they're getting 174 miles per gallon of liquid gasoline. Also, these everyday drivers are getting 80% of their total mileage delivered through electricity, rather than gas. Pretty great when you consider how many critics thought the 35-45 mile all-electric range wasn't enough.

As for Nissan, I've said this a few times. They decided to try and get away without putting a thermal management system on their batteries. Thus, they'll lose capacity more quickly, and the company will end up replacing them sooner. Bad call from Ghosn, but he wanted to get out ahead of the Volt. So it goes.

So if you have that kindof cash kicking around, get a Volt or - probably better - a Plug-In Prius. Those things are genius. NO range anxiety, because you have a gas tank and a gas engine right with you. And yet, you can get 80% of your miles (Volt) or 60% (PIP) through electricity.