dagblog - Comments for "25 year nostalgia: The Montreal Protocol"

Just a few

Peter Schwartz — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 23:26:35 +0000

In reply to 25 year nostalgia: The Montreal Protocol

Just a few thoughts/questions/whatevers:

• RR and MT were operating at a time before "movement conservatism" had fully taken over--at least in my memory. The whole idea of "objective reality" or "science" hadn't yet become politicized. So when science said there was a hole in the ozone layer and it wasn't good for living things, a broad spectrum of people believed it.

Now, when I talk with conservatives about "global warming," they immediately--and I mean, immediately--leap from any talk of the science to talk of the Gulag and mass murder as the inevitable end point of any government action. And I'm accused of wanting to send humanity back to living in caves.

• Maybe the relatively narrow focus of the problem and the solution made it easier for people to talk about and contemplate acting on. We had to give up aerosols, not change our entire way of life and political system (as it's portrayed). Global warming, its causes and solutions, are, well, global in nature and its hugeness may scare people to the degree they're being honest and not just shills or ideologues.

• You (and Q) seem to see an anti-tech push on the left that I haven't been aware of. I guess it's there, but I haven't seen it. Mostly I'm astounded by those on the right who seem to think that solar hasn't gotten any more efficient and never will. They dismiss green technologies with a wave of their hand. My compatriots in these arguments tend to be big believers in the future of these technologies based, in large part, on our experience with how fast all other technologies have developed. Maybe Donal, who seems to think the future isn't so bright for EVs, etc., and we all need to ride bikes. Dunno.

I'm reading Michael Mann's new book and, call me naive, but I'm stunned at the depth, breadth, and energy of the "denialist" movement. How they've managed to buy-out otherwise very accomplished scientists and their full-court press to enlist scientists, faux experts, media types, politicians, bloggers, average citizens in a massive and pervasive dis-information campaign. Apparently, and I found this peculiarly creepy, they've enlisted "seasoned veterans" from the tobacco dis- information campaigns of yore (and still today!)

It's really stunning in its power and size. How do you get that many people--otherwise knowledgeable and full of integrity-- to simply turn their back on science? Are they spreading THAT much green around?

Apparently, the key tactic is sew doubt, rather than confront the science directly. So they don't really have to disprove or prove anything, they just have to cast enough doubt that people will shy away from any talk of doing anything. Can't tell you how many conversations I've had with accomplished, sensible people who have swallowed the message of this dis-information campaign hook, line and sinker.

Maybe everyone has been aware of this all along, but I'm stunned. Guess it goes back to my belief in reason...

http://phys.org/news/2012-07-

Resistance — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 09:44:02 +0000

In reply to I'm still thinking about your

http://phys.org/news/2012-07-mirrors-sun.html

Hydrogen is the

Resistance — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 06:12:48 +0000

In reply to I'm still thinking about your

Hydrogen is the solution

Maybe someday we can find an inexpensive way to split H₂O, through electrolysis, then burn off the hydrogen to create more energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water

Water is the most abundant compound on Earth's surface, covering about 70 percent of the planet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen

Hydrogen gas (dihydrogen or molecular hydrogen)^[13] is highly flammable and will burn in air at a very wide range of concentrations between 4% and 75% by volume

In 1766–81, Henry Cavendish was the first to recognize that hydrogen gas was a discrete substance,^[9] and that it produces water when burned, a property which later gave it its name: in Greek, hydrogen means "water-former".

Water former is the power of the Gods...

We look throughout the universe for planets with water and here it is in abundance.

Figure out how to harness this abundant resource, full of Hydrogen. Maybe enough to power a planet and keep it alive?

It's waste.............. is more water.

I'm still thinking about your

PeraclesPlease — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 05:38:10 +0000

In reply to The 3 main things presently

I'm still thinking about your earlier comments on the magnitudes for an energy source to be useful. solar, wind - the economics improve but the size to be significant... i'm still hoping for a fission/fusion improvement to take us past chernobyl-age reactors. scientists split an electron the other day, kinda cool though don't know if lower energy useful

So we kick the ball downfield

PeraclesPlease — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 05:27:20 +0000

In reply to AZMACORT info: Pulmonologists

So we kick the ball downfield another 30 years, sometimes the best can do. Interesting the comments immediately launch into colonialism repeats. as if India post independence made no growth and environmental mistakes

AZMACORT info: Pulmonologists

NCD — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 00:47:20 +0000

In reply to I'm all for helping save the

AZMACORT info:

Pulmonologists have been recommending alternative medications such as:

Aerobid® (Flunisolide)
Asmanex® (Mometasone)
Alvesco® (Ciclesonide)
Flovent® (Fluticasone)
Pulmicort® (Budesonide)
Qvar® (Beclomethasone HFA)

It is recommended that all patients affected by this decision consult with their physicians to try and find a solution. Individuals are also encouraged to contact Abbott (the manufacturer of Azmacort) at 1-800-633-9110 or the U.S Food & Drug Administration at 1-800-332-1088. They can also participate in the petition to save CFC inhalers at savecfcinhalers.org, or share their story in the medicine community's Azmacort Forum at no charge.

On the technical fixes from the Montreal protocol on CFC's, the new chemical doesn't affect the ozone layer, but is long lasting, and thousands of times more potent as a greenhouse gas than CO2, fix one problem, create another, NYT, June 2012:

...these gases.......contribute to global warming thousands of times more than does carbon dioxide, the standard greenhouse gas.

The leading scientists in the field have just calculated that if all the equipment entering the world market uses the newest gases currently employed in air-conditioners, up to 27 percent of all global warming will be attributable to those gases by 2050.....

"snipe" is penis spelled

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 06 Jul 2012 22:27:46 +0000

In reply to The 3 main things presently

"snipe" is penis spelled sideways - useful if you're playing Scrabble, don't know if it helps with your bet.

Had a bit of a painful discussion on ocean levels last week - pointed out that the last 20 years on accepted sources showed linear rise, not accelerated (and last year had a major downturn thanks to La Nina). That doesn't mean it won't accelerate, only the recent measurements, but it gets tiring to have people yell at you to see blue when you see yellow.

So what's with AzmaCort

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 06 Jul 2012 21:50:13 +0000

In reply to I'm all for helping save the

So what's with AzmaCort CFC-free? No mention.

Being a Tron you could say - how many people's lives, what's the skinny?

I'm all for helping save the

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2012 21:11:30 +0000

In reply to 25 year nostalgia: The Montreal Protocol

I'm all for helping save the planet, BUT not at the expense of my life and that is what the banning of CFC's has done it is killing me. I am only ONE person that this has affected.There are many out here who can't use any medication but one and it was AZMACORT and it was taken off the market because it didn't get the HFA perfected for their product.

One man's wife couldn't get her AZMACORT in March and by June she was DEAD. Now I'm going down real fast and will not be here for long if something isn't done soon to help us. You are using our tax money to do this with and killing us off at the same time. I would be ashamed if I were you.

I am very much in favor of measures to save and protect our environment, but we cannot lose sight of the fact that this was also a medical decision ( With life and death impacts ). How much research was undertaken into the effects of this ban on patients health? Is any mechanism in place for tracking ,monitoring and reporting medical outcomes in affected patients? This just proves how much thought was given to peoples lives NOW and not just the future.

Please give us our medicine back. At least the AZMACORT it is a one of a kind and the only one MANY of us can use. We are dying out here we are like a fish taken out of the water and thrown upon the bank and left to flop around until we DIE. THIS IS NO JOKE. WE ARE DYING OUT HERE.

The 3 main things presently

Qnonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2012 20:48:19 +0000

In reply to 25 year nostalgia: The Montreal Protocol

The 3 main things presently stopping faster progress in North America:

1. The goddamn hype merchants behind fracking. They're shouting that it's not just a temporary bubble in natural gas, but ALL oil and gas prices are gonna fall, and stay down. This shit is being done to drive up the value of their shitty companies, but it's being clutched to the breasts of a whole lot of otherwise sensible people. Worth noting that natural gas prices in North America are 80%-90% LOWER than in Europe or Asia, which doesn't, therefore, face the same fracking hassles.

2. Too many goddamn leftie-greenies have decided to clutch an anti-technology, Apocalyptic, "I'm smarter than you because I can see technology won't work, and so we're all gonna hafta eat roots and berries" madness to THEIR breasts. Shorter: they've lost hope. It keeps happening in history, but the shabbiness, the softness, of the motivations and determinations of so many leftie-greens saddens me.

3. The Hard Right's insane hatred for Obama has led to this crackers thing whereby anything that he touches has to be seen as evil. And our media - led by money and terrified of anyone with convictions - lets them do it. Global warming? Media mentions are a fragment of what they were. EVEN THOUGH all the polling shows that attitudes are still essentially where they were as the global warming debate peaked a few years back. All that happened was that a few moderate Republicans got scared back further to the right, while older people - who don't believe this stuff - continued to die off. I just wish November was over.

What was the question again, and do I have to show my work?

Also, someone bet me that I couldn't work the word "penis" into my reply. Idiots.