dagblog - Comments for "Memo to Texas: Please Oh Please Secede"

Dude. There is no change so

Qnonymous — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 13:17:58 +0000

In reply to People can do what the fuck

Dude. There is no change so small Trope cannot oppose it.

Well, except for the Presidency. He's pretty wedded to Obama.

But beyond that? Not an inch, not a dime, not a lungful of fresh air shall change places under the watchful eye of.... Trope.

People can do what the fuck

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 07:32:22 +0000

In reply to Alsace-Lorraine If you don't

People can do what the fuck they like.

Originally Washington included Idaho and parts of Montana. There's nothing special about these borders.

If people in the east feel they don't get what they need from Seattle/Olympia, they can dig in their pockets to support their own government and army and other items of statehood through secession or join Idaho or in some other way find a more comfortable political arrangement.

What's wrong with the freedom of association and representation? That was the main principle behind the US Revolution. If British Colombia feels too far from Ottawa to be properly represented, why shouldn't they start their own country? It's funny that you find taxation unacceptable as reason to separate, since that was one of the main issues in 1776.

Sure, there are disputed regions between territories, as in Oregon/Washington between US, Britain, at one point Russia, but as more and more political arrangements like the European Union make individual statehood and rights less an issue, then it's easier to incorporate a new state. And there's nothing that says a new state has to be a different culture, or that different cultures can't get along in one.

Likewise, new colonies were created for religious freedom - say to get away from the wingnuts, like William Penn did to allow religious freedom and local representation. Parts of Pennsylvania were once owned by Sweden, Holland and the British, plus included in New York claims, with various disputes along the way. And some of these settlers didn't like Penn's Quaker arrangement, even though being more tolerant than what we think of as Quaker today, so they split off into Delaware County. Why not? Then Delaware was incorporated into Maryland, but this didn't work out either, and it eventually became a separate state. Though Delaware could easily join with the other coast lands on the peninsula to start a state called Delmarva, which already has its own power company and other services.

BTW, West Florida was at one time its own colony up to 1822, including land well up into current Alabama and Mississippi, while "Georgia" as we know it had some large gaps as seen below, depending on whose map.

And note that the current House of Windsor is actually a German house, so diverse cultures do manage workable agreements, despite the altercations around Alsace-Lorraine. The Habsburg Empire stably integrated Austria, Hungary, Bohemia/Moravia and much of the Balkans and present-day Italy, for hundreds of years, longer than the US has been around.

Alsace-Lorraine If you don't

Elusive Trope — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 03:06:41 +0000

In reply to So better to declare

Alsace-Lorraine If you don't understand this point of reference, I refuse to go further in this debate. Yes, in the case of say where you have two very distinct nations like the Czechs and the Slovaks, who wish to separate, yes it makes sense. But comparing western Washingtonians and eastern Washingtonians who differ on taxation and the like to the Czechs and Slovaks who see themselves as separate nations is...well...ludicrious.

So better to declare

PeraclesPlease — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 22:10:58 +0000

In reply to Of course there have been

So better to declare Yugoslavia inviolable, rather than let Slovenians form a viable independent state? Because Belgium made Congo into this huge uncontrolled multicultural state passing across ethnic boundaries, we have no recourse but to accept historical stupidity? The Belgians couldn't even form a national government for 18 months, and only managed to do it because of the seriousness of the Eurozone crisis - if Flemish-Walloon intransigence is so bad, isn't it better they just split before they hurt themselves?

There are lots of reasons it's much easier for countries to stay together, but in a number of cases, union seems a mistake - why be so hard-core about national lines if people vote or otherwise express serious incompatibility?

The US states have split and merged before - e.g. New Mexico got part of Texas, Massachussetts gave up western territory, West Virginia peeled off to stay a part of the north... it's not that big of a deal if Gary Indiana joins Illinois, is it? Danzig used to be a German city that turned into Gdansk - the world's survived, even if Prussia didn't.

Of course there have been

Elusive Trope — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:31:39 +0000

In reply to There are ways countries

Of course there have been split ups, and they can be done peacefully and to some degree without much hardship. And yes there are other countries that use a different model of power between the entities of their federations I was just focusing on the specific example of where the state borders are drawn within the US.

The borders of the countries in Africa for the most part were drawn by the colonial powers, and do not in anyway reflect the identities of the various communities - which is why there has been so much internal and cross border conflicts over the decades. Yet in spite of this, life is better to claim the lines unchangable rather than opening up a can of worms with the notion they can shifted one way or another.

While I would say that eastern Washington should in the final analysis be able to join Idaho if they didn't like what was happening in the state capitol in Olympia, it just isn't a good idea. Parts of northwest Indiana peels off to join Illinois, the panhandle joins Georgia, while Atlanta then becomes the Berlin of the South, with most of the city joining the new Florida.

All of this will never happen, but the point here I think is that rather than just going to find someone new to hang out with when elections don't go our way, we should see a loss in the elections to become more engaged in the national marketplace of ideas and ideology.

There are ways countries

PeraclesPlease — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:15:54 +0000

In reply to The actual bureaucratic

There are ways countries split up - like Czech & Slovak peacefully, Catalonia or Scotland by devolving power, the USSR be breaking into constituent parts, Quebec as a roughly autonomous province, Swiss semi-autonomous cantons, etc.

There are practical costs to breaking away, whether losing pooled resources, printing new currency, forming a separate government. Why the US should be fixed forever (except for adding states) is a bit bizarre, especially since we never minded ripping territory from Spain, France, Mexico, England, Russia, Canada. But exceptionalism rulez.

The actual bureaucratic

Elusive Trope — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:50:34 +0000

In reply to I think it's refreshing - why

The actual bureaucratic nightmare if state and other governmental borders were in constant flux is mind boggling. But ultimately a stable and robust union that embraces democracy, whatever the scale of that union (county, state, federal, etc), is in part built on the notion of that the minority will respect the decision of the majority. Which is not to say the minority needs to give up their quest to change the majority's mind in the future. Democracy isn't about being for elections only if one wins.

Of course, if a majority of people in one place want to leave for something else, that is, too, democracy at work. But then there are those of the minority who wanted to stay, who now get to decide if they want to resist the decision of the majority.

They already are:

EmmaZahn — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:49:59 +0000

In reply to I think it's refreshing - why

They already are: Micronation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think it's refreshing - why

PeraclesPlease — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:23:12 +0000

In reply to When I lived in Washington

I think it's refreshing - why shouldn't people and states reorganize into more fitting combinations? Isn't that Democracy?

When I lived in Washington

Elusive Trope — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:28:12 +0000

In reply to Huh? Far and away, the

When I lived in Washington State, the eastern portion of the state was always talking about leaving the western half and join up with Idaho because the urban folks on the west side didn't care about the farmers on the east side. These secede sentiments are nothing new, it is just that the internet now allows for them to be more visible (and the opportunity for them to go viral, and turned into something of an entertainment vehicle).