dagblog - Comments for "Massed Israeli troops poised for invasion of Gaza"

"Oh come on lulu, you can do

A Guy Called LULU — Tue, 20 Nov 2012 17:38:13 +0000

In reply to Oh come on lulu, you can do a

"Oh come on lulu, you can do a little bit better than the standard, "you're just trying to stifle." I thought you had the riff down better. That's an old and tired trope. You need to be a little more creative than that."
Maybe old , but not tired. Some think it has an ongoing affect that is felt today by many who might speak out publicly.
Maybe you actually believe "stifling" never happens, maybe you think it never happened, or that, to any extent that it ever has, it is irrelevant. I think you are mistaken if not deliberately attempting to do that very thing by ridiculing the very idea as only a slur being troped up by haters. So do many others. Here are a few names you may recognize which you can add to your list of completely unconscionable people who think that what you assert in denial is, in fact, actually the tired old trope in play.
David Atkins, co-writer with Digby at Hullaballoo has an opinion.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/gaza-by-davidoatkins.html

So does Robert Fisk.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/as-israel-and-hamas-open-the...

Chris Floyd argues as to why we should speak out regardless and it is in response to Atkins post at Hullaballo..

http://www.chris-floyd.com/

Arabs have been massacring

Callen — Tue, 20 Nov 2012 14:11:16 +0000

In reply to but it is important to

Arabs have been massacring Jews throughout history. Jews went from defense to offense only in the late 1930s. What pisses the Arabs off most is the fact that the Jews can now defend themselves. Note that their "anti-Zionist" massacres in 1929 were of indigennous religious Jewish families in Tzfat and Hebron. Cowards then, too.

Bronner noted in a Nov 16

artappraiser — Tue, 20 Nov 2012 03:01:02 +0000

In reply to What Uri said:

Bronner noted in a Nov 16 article that the metaphor of maintaining a grass lawn is known to be used:

....What is striking in listening to the Israelis discuss their predicament is how similar the debate sounds to so many previous ones, despite the changed geopolitical circumstances. In most minds here, the changes do not demand a new strategy, simply a redoubled old one.

The operative metaphor is often described as “cutting the grass,” meaning a task that must be performed regularly and has no end. There is no solution to security challenges, officials here say, only delays and deterrence. That is why the idea of one day attacking Iranian nuclear facilities, even though such an attack would set the nuclear program back only two years, is widely discussed as a reasonable option. That is why frequent raids in the West Bank and surveillance flights over Lebanon never stop.

And that is why this week’s operation in Gaza is widely viewed as having been inevitable, another painful but necessary maintenance operation that, officials here say, will doubtless not be the last....

Gideon Levy borders on sarcastic in a rant about basically the same thing:

....What do Israelis want? Nothing. They want calm. They want the occupation to continue without disturbing their interminable siesta time. Nearly all Israeli politicians say there is no solution, and anyway we shouldn't go there. There are no Palestinians, no terror attacks and no problem. We left the Gaza Strip, the West Bank is quiet, we have proclaimed our support for a two-state solution. What is the Israeli offering the Palestinian? Sit quietly and don't do anything. But the Palestinian people wants to be free of the occupation. Life is like that sometimes.....

And Jeff Goldberg, believe it or not, is becoming brutally blunt:

The Iron Dome, Press Bias, and Israel's Lack of Strategic Thinking, Nov. 16
Against a Ground Invasion of Gaza, Nov. 17

While Marc Lynch on Friday waxed skeptical for various reasons that the Arab Spring's Arab street would jump to the barricades over this, despite all the Arab media attention to it, and he hasn't updated his blog since.

I think you misunderstand

A Guy Called LULU — Tue, 20 Nov 2012 02:13:58 +0000

In reply to Re: some analysis of claims

I think you misunderstand what I was saying. I'll take the blame for that. I was in a hurry and like I said, I felt the comment was poorly constructed. I'll try to do a bit better with an explanation.

I expect what the IDF puts out to be reported and so too with Hamas. I did not mean to suggest anything different.

"I'd rather read what actual parties involved think rather than multitudinous emotional op-eds of outsiders in support of one side or another".

My default position when any government starts explaining why they need to attack another country militarily is that a lot of what they say is B.S. meant to stoke emotions and they hope that their B.S. gets passed on uncritically as the NYT, in this case, did.

"I simply think it's a good thing to know what they are thinking rather than not. And I don't blame a messenger for misleading when an article is scattered through with "Israeli officials said."

I would like to know what they are thinking too but I f we accept what they are saying uncritically we only know what they are saying, not necessarily what they are really thinking. If we see that they are saying crap that is obviously not true, and their talk about Hamas' drones seems to me to fit that description, then we can add that bit of understanding to the information we gather in attempting to understand more of the total picture.

"If it's fear mongering to have this information, then you are arguing for keeping things secret."

I did not suggest that the messenger was doing the fear mongering, I said the the IDF was hyping the threat of Hamas' drones and so the IDF was the one, in this case, hyping to raise the fear level to justify their actions. I also said that every government does this so I was not singling out the Israeli government or its sub department, the IDF as being some kind of unique bad.
To quote myself, "The reporting of Hamas' drones seems to be simply passing on by the NYT of scare hype. Scare hype is used by every government to reinforce their public’s support of its own actions". So once again, the NYT was passing on the IDF announcement as they should and must, but the hype in this case, if it is such, is produced by the IDF. What I said I wished for was some analysis by the NYT that lets the evidence that it is hype be seen by those who read the IDF statement and might think that Hamas actually is approaching "Reaper" capability.

"...that what you are arguing about them not really having significantly increased military strength is not what Hamas wants people to think. So turns out both sides disagree with you; Hamas and the IDF agree that Hamas has increased its military strength."

What both sides say is not automatically the way things are. Both sides have their reasons to say that Hamas is stronger. Both sides cannot be said to disagree with me because I did not say that Hamas had not increased its military strength. I said that I thought that they had not developed any drone capability that could be any kind of effective military tool but that the IDF was saying they had done so as an attempt to hype the fear level. I went on to say that they were probably also exaggerating other claims of increased missile capability by Hamas even if Hamas has some bigger missiles that can go further before they [usually] miss their target. That is different than saying that there has been no increase in their power.

Talking about this solely as

NCD — Tue, 20 Nov 2012 01:30:03 +0000

In reply to What Uri said:

Talking about this solely as a security issue is an effective political tactic for those whose strategy is to kick the broader, deeper conflict down the road forever.

A very accurate and succinct description of what has been going on, for decades.

What Uri said:

acanuck — Mon, 19 Nov 2012 21:35:49 +0000

In reply to Massed Israeli troops poised for invasion of Gaza

What Uri said: http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1353080494

Talking about this solely as a security issue is an effective political tactic for those whose strategy is to kick the broader, deeper conflict down the road forever. I'm not playing.

Re: some analysis of claims

artappraiser — Mon, 19 Nov 2012 20:59:08 +0000

In reply to A few notes before heading

Re: some analysis of claims like the one here by the IDF, or any official source anywhere rather than simply pass them on.

I just added some analysis from Al Jazeera downthread, that what you are arguing about them not really having significantly increased military strength is not what Hamas wants people to think. So turns out both sides disagree with you; Hamas and the IDF agree that Hamas has increased its military strength.

Analysis: Media war rages in

artappraiser — Mon, 19 Nov 2012 20:49:26 +0000

In reply to Massed Israeli troops poised for invasion of Gaza

Analysis: Media war rages in Gaza
By Safa Joudeh, Al Jazeera, Nov. 19, 2012

[....] Seen as the mouthpiece of Hamas, Al Quds broadcasts content that serves to promote and glorify the image of the political and military arms of the movement. Since Israel launched its ongoing offensive in Gaza, Operation Pillar of Cloud, Al Quds has provided minute-by-minute updates on rockets fired into Israel and losses incurred on the Israeli side, boasting the increased size and reach of the military capabilities of Palestinian armed groups - mainly Hamas' armed wing, the Qassam Brigades. Footage of hundreds of masked fighters marching in a show of numbers or conducting simulated raids, and grainy amateur videos of fighters attacking Israeli targets are played in a loop.

The underlying issue in Hamas' aggressive self-promotion on its satellite channels, as well as its official websites and other online platforms, is the media war that is taking place on the sidelines of and in correspondence with the military conflict.

There are two levels to the PR approach employed Hamas. The first is addressing the local audience, the population of Gaza - and the second is propaganda aimed at Israeli decision makers.The portrayal of the Hamas movement as having a strong, well-equipped military force with a solid organisational structure serves to increase its authority and popularity among Gazans, while sending a clear message to Israel: Hamas is an adversary to be reckoned with, rather than an unrecognised regime that can be forcibly removed [....]

More on what he said,

artappraiser — Mon, 19 Nov 2012 20:19:17 +0000

In reply to Hamas Leader Dares Israel to

More on what he said, including that Netanyahu asked for a truce:

Al-Manar English

Al Bawaba News

CBS News

(that Netanyahu did so is denied by the Israeli government, see Reuters)

Also @ The Guardian, see

Israel-Gaza: truce talks ongoing in Cairo – live updates

Live coverage as Egypt peace talks continue amid fears of ground invasion

BTW, if you listen, what

artappraiser — Mon, 19 Nov 2012 20:17:12 +0000

In reply to I simply think it's a good

BTW, if you listen, what Hamas' chief just basically said in a press conference is that they want this to continue, to "bring it on":

"The weapons of the resistance have caught the enemy off guard," he said. "Netanyahu asked for calm and not us."