dagblog - Comments for "The Information Jacuzzi - Part II"

You seem to cover the nature

Elusive Trope — Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:02:29 +0000

You seem to cover the nature of the flow of information that I am talking about, but not the increase in disinformation contained in the flow. You may have implied that the ochlocracy is a source of increased erroneous information, in that you state that "the blogs, wikis, and social networks that cater to the information mob." And the mob mentality is generally used a derogatory term.

The blogs, wikis and social networks can be a source of good, valuable and functional information, opinions and insights, as we all know. (there are those who would see Dagblog as a source of misinformation).

My example would be that in the early 60s, most Americans didn't know squat about Vietnam, if they could even find it on a globe, just like Afghanistan. The difference is that today when someone seeks out to "learn" about something like that country we're sending troops into, the individual is more likely to get something less than kosher than in the days when they turned to Walter Cronkite.

I don't like to be a

Doctor Cleveland — Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:19:10 +0000

In reply to The Information Jacuzzi - Part II

I don't like to be a spoilsport, Mike. And I'm really going to be a spoilsport here. Sorry.

The historical narrative in which the Middle Ages are totally under the ideological thumb of a grim and rigid Church, and then the Renaissance breaks out into a festival of free-thinking, has fallen out of favor, for the simple reason that it doesn't fit the facts well at all. Now, as a scholar of the Renaissance, I would be perfectly pleased if it were true. It's just not, recent popular books retreading that historical mythology notwithstanding.

The Catholic Church was the only publisher in Europe? What? ALL the scribes worked for the Church? That's not true at all. And if it were, how did The Canterbury Tales get copied out? Or, let's go bananas here, The Decameron? How the hell would rigid religious censorship produce that?

And, as a scholar of the Renaissance, let me point out that the information explosion you point out actually led to new regimes of censorship and control. The Age of Print was more restrictive in many ways than the Middle Ages were. This is why some of the examples you chose, such as Copernicus and Galileo, were oppressed in the Renaissance, not the Middle Ages.

The rise of the government censor comes with, and because of, the printing press. The Roman Inquisition is a post-Reformation thing. So is the foundation of the Jesuits. (And, while we're on the topic, the Renaissance did witch trials on a scale that dwarfed the Middle Ages. Witchcraft persecution is not actually a medieval thing. It's a Renaissance industry.)

Spoilsporty, I know.

but the Pope is a

Doctor Cleveland — Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:04:55 +0000

In reply to Nice to hear from you, Donal.

but the Pope is a particularly interesting example because his divine authority was so much more significant than his military authority-

Actually, this is only true AFTER the Protestant Reformation, when it suddenly became politically important for the Pope to seem personally saintly.

The medieval Popes are standard medieval-Italian princes, much like the Dukes of Ferrara or whatever. That they are insecure, depending upon local alliances and their on-again, off-again relationship with the Emperor, only makes them more like the others. It wasn't like the Duke of Milan didn't have to do that.

And the idea that they are clients of the Emperor ignores the ongoing struggle between the Popes and Emperors for control of Italy, the centuries long Guelph vs. Ghibelline struggle.

I wish the Jesuits had taught

Donal — Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:52:06 +0000

In reply to Nice to hear from you, Donal.

I wish the Jesuits had taught us more of this, but it seems that there was a range of military power from Julius II, the 'Warrior' pope, to the captive popes at Avignon. In any case the church did have local military might until Italian nationalism pushed them into Vatican city.

Yeah, I covered that. See

Michael Wolraich — Tue, 29 Jan 2013 01:13:20 +0000

In reply to While there is more

Yeah, I covered that. See Part I.

Nice to hear from you, Donal.

Michael Wolraich — Tue, 29 Jan 2013 01:07:13 +0000

In reply to With help from Constantine

Nice to hear from you, Donal. It's not clear to me how much military power the pope actually had (and for how long). The article suggests that the Church's power depended on the loyalty of the Emperor and local warlords.

Of course, every ruler depends on the loyalty of his generals, but the Pope is a particularly interesting example because his divine authority was so much more significant than his military authority--and therefore particularly vulnerable to dissent.

Speaking of dissent, did you catch the line that someone snuck into the wiki?

the Frankish Empire collapsed as it was subdivided among Charlemagne's grandchildren, and the papacy's prestige declined into the condition later dubbed the pornocracy.

With help from Constantine

Donal — Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:17:27 +0000

In reply to The Information Jacuzzi - Part II

With help from Constantine and later Pepin, the Bishop of Rome controlled more and more territory and wielded a great deal of temporal power, including armies. Eventually Popes had varying authority over what were known as Papal States, though there were constant changes in their influence and alliances. The rise and fall of the church's temporal power may tie in with your thesis.

http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Papal_States

My first impulse is to agree

Aunt Sam — Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:22:03 +0000

In reply to While there is more

My first impulse is to agree with your base view, but, IMO, it is too simplistic - there are a few more elements impacting the 'dumbing down' of the majority. That said, the end result has not proven to be positive for the masses. Thank you sir for your insight.

While there is more

Anonymous trope — Sun, 27 Jan 2013 02:20:48 +0000

In reply to The Information Jacuzzi - Part II

While there is more information out there, there is more disinformation. In general people are no more or less ignorant than they were twenty years ago, but they are vastly more misinformed with a greater crowd affirming that misinformation. While centuries ago it was the church and the village affirming the world view and facts now it is a global mob.

All true (and important), but

Verified Atheist — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 16:57:23 +0000

In reply to Some information for your

All true (and important), but his academic freedom was also curtailed. After his conviction he was censured quite heavily, IIRC.