dagblog - Comments for "Turkish composer Fazil Say convicted of blasphemy and inciting hatred"

Call them out, Bruce - just

PeraclesPlease — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 05:29:59 +0000

Call them out, Bruce - just be prepared with some facts more current than 1918. Grazie.

Talking about Cyprus without mentioning the Greek EOKA is bollocks (EOKA - the Greek rebel force that pushed the British out of Cyprus and its B version that staged a coup in 1974 - the Turks were just supposed to sit around and accept a new government by coup, sponsored from the military junta in Athens? )

BTW - this article's interesting, noting that some of Turkey's military activity against the PKK might be designed to decrease Erdogan/AKP support in Kurdish areas. As a Muslim, Erdogan has more support & attraction in these areas, and the military as usual is tense & nervous about a return to Muslim rule or even leanings.

Earlier interview with Fazil Say is also interesting (here in German) - certainly views himself as part of the opposition to AKP's hold on Turkey, addresses imprisonment of journalists as well.

At least 6000, up to 11000

PeraclesPlease — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 04:15:11 +0000

In reply to Peracles, most of the 40,000

At least 6000, up to 11000 Turkish troops and police have been killed; even the PKK claims many more rebel fighters have been killed than civilian (possibly to downplay the effects of their urban warfare)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish%E2%80%93Turkish_conflict#Casualties

This is an active armed insurgency, which started off as a Maoist-Marxist movement, to which I'm completely unsympathetic.

(see history of Soviet Union, China Great Leap Forward/Cultural Revolution, Pol Pot Cambodia)

I'm of course sympathetic to Kurds being able to speak & learn in their own language, and there has been some easing of this under Erodgan, arguably not enough.

I'm even sympathetic to their being able to organize (peacefully) enough to vote a region out of Turkey. [this is consistent with my view on our Civil War, but inconsistent with world governments from Russia on Chechnya, China on Xinjiang/Tibet, Serbia on Kosovo, Burma on Karin, Israel on Palestine, Spain on Catalonia, so Turkey's not unique in this regard]

What seems facile is to just label this a Turkish issue, and then drop it all on Erdogan's shoulders. That AKP (Erdogan) has greatly increased its support in these areas says to me it's not just a military campaign.

Even Ocalan would likely reject this superficial view, as his recent call for a farewell to arms and building something different portends.

People were predicting a Sharia state from when Erdogan got elected. Obviously this hasn't happened, and while he represents the Muslim party, he has not ruled as a radical. [compare democracy in Turkey with that of our budding allies in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan...]

I disagree with the conviction of the piano player for his Tweets, and imagine this will be overturned or resolved in some fashion. Take big breath, remove torch from hair.

It will, of, course not

jollyroger — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 00:11:34 +0000

In reply to Turkish composer Fazil Say convicted of blasphemy and inciting hatred

It will, of, course not surprise that I stay clear of jurisdictions which vindicate Yahweh's right to respect. I'm more worried about the case against the generals-- a pretty clumsy frameup

I probably could be a bit

Bruce Levine — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:34:19 +0000

In reply to Well, I enjoyed seeing your

I probably could be a bit more even-handed, but I just cannot get a handle out of this notion that it is somehow wrong to call out certain leaders around the world. I can't get a handle on it and I don't buy it. It's weird.

Well, I enjoyed seeing your

artappraiser — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:52:27 +0000

In reply to What diatribe PP?

Well, I enjoyed seeing your gut ruminations on this news, and I suspect you put them down knowing that's how I'd take 'em.

(Plus nothing there Mark Twain didn't say 10 times worse about the Ottoman Empire. What I don't get is people who take such ruminations as a red flag to start arguing, rather than as a jumping off point to other ruminations. In both your case and Twain's.)

Personally, what interests me most is about this story: I think the whole blasphemy law thing is a sort of litmus test about who is and who isn't ready to accept what 21st century technology has wrought. Putting their foot down and setting examples, and in the worst cases, populist whipping up of outrage on it or even tolerating or encouraging rioting, alll signify a desire to go backwards.

Who knows, if "the really big crash" comes (which both many FDlakers and many extreme right wingers seem to be fervently awaiting like a messiah,) and we are back to hunting and gathering and tribes for security, maybe the blasphemy-law-maniac types will be the ones to survive. Until then, though, there's still this mass communication thingie rapidly expanding.

Peracles, most of the 40,000

Aaron Carine — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:12:01 +0000

In reply to Can only fit so much shit in

Peracles, most of the 40,000 dead have been Kurds, not Turks, and a lot of them have been civilians. In addition, we have all the repression and human rights violations that fall short of killing. The Kurds need a wall more than the Turks do.

What diatribe PP?

Bruce Levine — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:56:53 +0000

In reply to Can only fit so much shit in

What diatribe PP? Seriously?

Perhaps you think that people like me don't have to feel kind of weird for the fact that I and those before me never held the Turks accountable for the genocide of the Armenians. That's a stain we all have to live with PP--but there's no reason to push it under the rug.

And they convicted a pianist PP for the crime of blaspheme, and they jail journalists like almost no other nation in the entire world.

What gives with your defense PP? Erdogan is just another autocrat who has great one liners.

Cyprus? I'm not whimpering when I point out that Turkey controls half the island and "ethnically cleansed" (as others might use that term, which I'm just using for the purpose of poking you a bit) the Greeks from their section of the island.

So, yea, I think Turkey has gotten a bye for 100 years or so, which is kind of fine as I said because I understand strategic considerations, etc. But I also understand that Erdogan is a hypocrite and he runs a country that jails piano players.

That's not a diatribe. It's poking fun at those who might see some groove in the steps of a guy like Erdogan -- something I get but just don't buy.

Addendum: On the Kurds, I don't understand your argument. Is it that you don't believe that they have the same national aspirations as other groups? I don't understand the "progressive" position on the Kurds in light of the positions I so often read about other places like the West Bank. Maybe your position isn't the "progressive" one, but I guess I don't understand it then.

Can only fit so much shit in

PeraclesPlease — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 15:54:25 +0000

In reply to Turkey and its predecessor

Can only fit so much shit in a 5 lb. bag, Bruce. What's Cyprus got to do with this? The EU's behavior on Cyprus admissions was disgraceful, and after the Greek & Greek Cypriot crashes (with a huge amount of tax evasion from 50% of the population, government complicity and bank malfeasance), not the best time to whimper about Turkish actions in Cyprus.

Running back to WWI to start your diatribe doesn't help.

Yes, the PKK is a terrorist organization, and yes the Turkish government has been repressive towards Kurds, and yes, treatment of journalists (especially Kurdish ones) has worsened in the last two years. (as has in Palestine - and probably in Iraq & Afghanistan as well (wasn't the US intentionally targeting press locations just recently??)

But tell me a place in the West Bank aside from illegal settlements where the Israeli government would get half the electoral backing as AKP has in a number of Kurdish areas. Putting scare quotes around "terrorist" I'm sure is insulting for Turks as would be scare quotes around "PLO". 700 people killed over a recent 14 month run, and 40,000 killed over a 30 year period trumps the Israel/Palestinian situation by quite a bit, and yet the Turks still haven't put up a wall.

(Turkish-Kurd intermarriage is also pretty normal)

Ocalan's announcement of a cease-fire is another reason for hope.

As for Erdogan, considering all the worries from the time of his first election, and this is the worst into his 3rd administration? Hair can go un-on-fire any time now. Yes, hope this gets reversed, but in the Mideast, Erdogan is a pretty good leader.

Turkey and its predecessor

Bruce Levine — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:49:01 +0000

In reply to Turkish composer Fazil Say convicted of blasphemy and inciting hatred

Turkey and its predecessor Ottoman Empire have gotten quite a few byes over the last century, beginning with the real genocide that we're not allowed to talk about lest we offend (sorry Armenians). And of course, sorry Cyprus, oh yes, and let's not forget about the "terrorist" Kurds who yearn for the recognition of a national identity precisely (nay identically) just like the Palestinians, about whom Erdogan keeps announcing plans to visit ~~visit the Kurds in his country~~ Gaza.

The U.S., Europe, Israel, Russia and the entire world of nations is guilty of this kind of historical enabling--and of course for all kinds of really "good" reasons, and my tongue is not entirely stuck in my cheek in acknowledging that.

So now we have Turkey, with its incredibly glorious history, and now led by a man who fully understands democracy and what it means, but just cannot seem to practice it. Indeed, here are currently more than 230 journalists festering in the prisons of Turkey for the crime of using their pen.

And now he comes for the composers. Erdogan -- what a guy, especially when he says those really, really nasty things about countries and peoples that the rest of the world doesn't like too much.