dagblog - Comments for "Let’s Get Real - What We Call ‘American Ideals’ Are a Sham"

LT no see. Cheers.

A Guy Called LULU — Mon, 27 May 2013 00:03:25 +0000

In reply to The title asserts that what

LT no see. Cheers.

I don't think the American

moat — Sun, 26 May 2013 23:52:55 +0000

In reply to Let’s Get Real - What We Call ‘American Ideals’ Are a Sham

I don't think the American Ideals are a sham. We prove ourselves again and again to not be worthy of them but our failure is collective in respect to them. But if there is a way forward, it is only those ideals we have failed to realize that will make it possible.

It would be nice if the only thing stopping our society from being better was the end of this or that way of life. But change is not like that except in times of war.

Martin Luther King Junior addressed this element directly; What divides this part of the nation is what divides these other parts. It is just one place.

We are stuck with each other.

The title asserts that what

kgb999 — Sun, 26 May 2013 22:37:51 +0000

In reply to Let’s Get Real - What We Call ‘American Ideals’ Are a Sham

The title asserts that what we call American ideals are a sham ... and then the article proceeds to give a reasonably eloquent argument in favor of American ideals and a critique of those who fall short of them. It seems premised on an agreement that America's ideals are actually pretty groovy but that Americans - Republicans, in particular - suck the big one and are hypocrites for falling short on them.

But. Isn't that the entire point of ideals? Ideals are meant to be aspirational - a tiny glimpse of something better to strive for. If they have been set low enough that they are easily achieved or, more absurdly, so they describe the current state of things .... you're doing it entirely wrong.

I think we'll all agree things have moved forward considerably in terms of equality from the days of the Tuskegee airmen. I'd argue that it is the friction between America's ideals and the ways in which fallible men fall short of them that has been the driving force for that. Further, it is that friction that continues to drive us - for example, providing intellectual frameworks that can be used to call out Republicans for falling short of what are unquestionably admirable statements of ideal, even when used as platitudes.

At a time when the direction we're headed as a nation and people seems so unclear - with indicators many aspects of society are solidly moving in a crummy direction - it seems a re-dedication to the ideals that brought us to this point might be more useful to getting society back on track than simply declaring that the measuring stick of America's ideals should be chopped down to represent the lowest human failure in our history of trying to live up to something decent.

Humans suck. We can either wallow in it or propose ways to suck less and continually rededicate ourselves to the journey. To me, the pledge of allegiance is a statement of personal dedication to bringing about the shared vision of an ideal America - an America having the broad characteristics described. While it could probably be changed a bit and made even better, I don't think caveats would ever be appropriate based on the point of it.

My personal view on the saying pledge in the classroom depends on how they're construing "mandatory". If it's mandatory for the teacher to lead a class in the pledge at the start of school every morning - it doesn't bug me much. If it's mandatory for the students to *participate* rather than non-disruptively remain seated if they do not want to do it .... that's a really big problem in my mind.

I'm curious, how do you picture this "America is a racist hellhole and all of history is one big clusterfuck of hypocritical assholes falling short of what they say is right - especially Republicans - so, let's get some GOALS here, people!" message being condensed into a sort of verse that articulates an uplifting shared national purpose and lends itself to easy morning recital?

Makes me glad I live in

Verified Atheist — Wed, 22 May 2013 11:59:35 +0000

In reply to Let's not forget the gender

Makes me glad I live in Charlottesville, where such a guy would hardly be given a second look.

We have some really interesting characters in downtown C'ville. One of my favorites is an older gentleman who breaks out a harmonica, plays a single note, and then goes on to loudly sing songs such as "Danny Boy", "What a Wonderful World", etc., while dressed in a '70s leisure suit.

A guy dressed in drag would probably have a decent chance of getting elected to City Council here, assuming people agreed with his platform. (No, I'm not talking about his shoes.)

Thank you for this,

Wattree — Wed, 22 May 2013 00:04:31 +0000

In reply to Wattree, I notice that you

Thank you for this, Michael.

The primary reason that I didn’t provide the links that you sited is while I relied heavily upon the pledge to make my point, the history of the pledge is so universally understood that it only needed to be alluded to substantiate my thesis, which was, and is, "what we profess to be American ideals is a sham."

And by goal in this regard I

Elusive Trope — Tue, 21 May 2013 23:31:38 +0000

In reply to I guess I had always seen the

And by goal in this regard I mean aspirational. There are times when this country (and by that I mean the people, whether as neighbor or governmental representative) has demonstrated the best of what it means to be an American. It is those examples, in much the way that Obama spoke to the graduating students at Moorehead I believe recently about being role models, we should acknowledge and celebrate.

At the same time, those times when we as a nation fall short of living up to our ideals need to be acknowledged, stopped and a new way of doing things begun.

Affirmative action, regardless of how successful or not successful, was begun with the best of intentions to right some wrongs, to level the playing fair in the name of fairness and justice. To the extent today we can agree upon where it has fallen short we need to make adjustments, with the same intention of addressing wrongs past and current.

Let's not forget the gender

Elusive Trope — Tue, 21 May 2013 23:19:05 +0000

In reply to We might be the "land of the

Let's not forget the gender theater.

One doesn't need the army or national guard or mall cops to ensure the vast majority conform to the gender imperatives, reiterated in almost everything we do and say. Have some guy dress up in drag and walk about town on a Saturday night and watch the average citizens enforce the conformity with extreme prejudice (and bodily harm).

I guess I had always seen the

Elusive Trope — Tue, 21 May 2013 23:13:45 +0000

In reply to Let’s Get Real - What We Call ‘American Ideals’ Are a Sham

I guess I had always seen the pledge as a goal. I had been raised to know about Wounded Knee and the underground railroad and water hoses and dogs turned on citizens standing up for their civil liberties and so on. It didn't take much to catch the gap between what the pledge stated and the reality on the ground.

With that said, my jr high in Idaho every morning first had the national anthem played over the brand new intercom system, followed by the pledge of allegiance. A friend and I refused to stand during both the anthem and pledge. Our teacher flipped out and tried to force us to go along. The principle, however, stated they weren't allowed to do that, but my friend and I were to stand in the hallway if we were not going to participate.

For a couple of months, we started our school day being by being asked to leave the class so the rest of them could do their thang, with the teacher making subtle and not-so-subtle insinuations about our patriotism and love of country. I think she was trying in the beginning to provoke one or both of us to lose control, but we had agreed when we first started to remain calm regardless of what the teachers or other students might say.

Finally the teacher tired and we fell into a silent routine where my friend and I would walk out a minute before the intercom would blast out the anthem, and when they were done reciting the pledge, the teacher would poke her head out the door, look at us and then disappear, with us walking back in for the first lesson of the day.

Surprisingly, no students said anything to us, affirmative or negative.

I do have a question for you: are a-ok with neo-nazi parents home schooling their kids? I mean since the parents have ultimate say in the upbringing of their children...

We now have an all-volunteer

rmrd0000 — Tue, 21 May 2013 16:26:08 +0000

In reply to We might be the "land of the

We now have an all-volunteer military willing to kick in doors with boots, missiles, bombs or drones. There was the classic sign out up by soldiers in the initial part of the Iraq War, "We're At War.America's At The Mall".

There are two different realities of combat.

Coming on a day when the CEO

NCD — Tue, 21 May 2013 16:01:23 +0000

In reply to Let’s Get Real - What We Call ‘American Ideals’ Are a Sham

Coming on a day when the CEO of Apple is testifying before Congress on why Apple keeps $100 billion dollars in cash in tax havens overseas makes one wonder, since the Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are people, maybe a new Pledge of Allegiance is necessary, taken not only by school kids but also corporations, and swearing fealty of money as well as self, vowing not to dodge US taxes.