dagblog - Comments for "Independence Day"

Of course, I forgot to check

Michael Wolraich — Fri, 19 Jul 2013 15:31:26 +0000

In reply to Michael, for what it's worth,

Of course, I forgot to check back until Bruce mentioned this post on another thread and reminded me. Thanks for this. My curiosity was aroused because for all its flaws, I don't find American foreign policy to be any worse than it used to be and in some ways better. We no longer shake our nuclear weapons at our enemies, engage in proxy wars with rival superpowers, or clandestinely assassinate sovereign leaders. Iraq and Afghanistan, for all their horrors, are not as horrible than Vietnam. One can argue that the improvements are paltry and meaningless, but I think it's hard to argue that American foreign policy is any more self-serving, amoral, or hypocritical than it has been since WWII.

So my question was, in essence, why now? I would think that you would have disassociated long ago. Do you think foreign policy has changed for the worse in the past few years? Was it a personal change? Something else?

Michael, for what it's worth,

kyle flynn — Tue, 09 Jul 2013 01:25:03 +0000

In reply to All right, I'll try to

Michael, for what it's worth, it never occurred to me you might be using words disparagingly. To be clear, disassociation seems a bit too formal, but close enough. But alienation hits too passive a note. I don't feel like an outsider or estranged. I'll say this. I'm not apathetic. I'm still quite willing to pay my taxes, vote (I've got a 95% voting record I'd like to maintain), march, picket, rally, write letters, phone my congress people, help my neighbors, hand over what little money I think I can spare to the good cause, and otherwise contribute in my tiny way to a better America. I ain't going nowhere. I enjoy very much my neighborhood and the town of Olympia where I've lived for 25 years. I'm sentimental about the region—the cities, the Pacific Ocean, the mountains and rivers, Puget Sound, the rain, the beer and coffee, the people. I'm dug in. But I'm sorry America, I'm just not in love with you anymore. We can still be friends.

There isn't a precise moment I can point to that changed things for me. The idea has been gnawing at me for years. I just finally got sick enough of contorting myself, especially coming from a left/progressive/liberal place, into unnatural positions defending America's honor. I quit. And quite frankly, it feels great. Reading those two posts over at TPM inside of 10 minutes was serendipitous. Their juxtaposition crystallized a couple thoughts I felt like saying out loud, so to speak.

What I didn't get around to expressing, and what was actually among the first thoughts that came to mind, is that the lousy, self serving foreign policies of the United States and Nations everywhere are interfering with solving the one threat that matters most for all of our futures: Climate Change. The global political cesspool we suffer today that was shaped largely by events in the latter half of the 20^th Century (which, ironically, America doesn't take nearly enough credit for) could undo us all. The old and older grudges, the fear and mistrust, the cloak and dagger approaches and the tribal attitudes we cling to are going to have to make way for a massively more cooperative worldwide community. Until then, the illusion of folks living within well defined borders competing for prosperity with other folks living within other, well defined borders is a Maginot Line of sorts.

Your last paragraph baffles

kyle flynn — Mon, 08 Jul 2013 17:21:22 +0000

In reply to Kyle, not everything centers

Your last paragraph baffles me. I'm sorry you've picked up traces of anger from me toward you. Be assured, I'm not angry. And yes, I'm certain you and I would agree completely on 90% of everything, but this is 10% territory. As long as we're sharing this conversation we do need to explain ourselves to each other. Color me crazy, but it seems to me that's what most of this exercise is about, explaining ourselves.

Yeah, I'm still an American

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 05 Jul 2013 19:53:34 +0000

In reply to I love this comment.

Yeah, I'm still an American and somewhat a southerner while never really a southerner, and at one point I thought of myself as an ambassador but that point faded. You can call me Joe.

I love this comment.

Orlando — Fri, 05 Jul 2013 19:29:42 +0000

In reply to It's a mindset, Kyle - your

I love this comment. Seriously. I've been trying to put my thoughts together on this all day and you've done it though I still feel some allegiance to the country I grew up in even though I'll probably never live there again. It's not unvarnished though.

And you are so spot on about the equalizing factor that consumerism plays. In my city today for lunch I had a panini. Then, I drove to Kuala Lumpur for the weekend where I had Chinese for dinner followed by a couple mojitos. My friend had a martini. Another friend had a caipirinha. Then, we went to a club and danced to Mary J Blige.

In many ways my life is different than it was in the USA. But in many other ways, it's hard to notice a big difference.

All right, I'll try to

Michael Wolraich — Fri, 05 Jul 2013 15:25:00 +0000

In reply to I'm interested in answering

All right, I'll try to remember to check back.

PS I used the word alienation hesitantly, knowing it wasn't the word you chose. It just seemed to fit your description of having previously identified with the U.S. and the government but having lost that sense of identification somewhere along the way. I meant nothing disparaging by it.

Kyle, not everything centers

Ramona — Fri, 05 Jul 2013 12:53:00 +0000

In reply to What do you mean, "...making

Kyle, not everything centers around how we feel about Manning, Greenwald and Snowden. Other things go on in this country and as an older feminist, anti-racist, anti-poverty, pro-choice, pro-child, pro-health care, pro-union advocate I resent the fact that all of the things I've fought for, and those before me fought for, are now being undone. They're being undone to a dizzying degree and they're being undone by people who were voted in by a majority who don't know their asses from holes in the ground.

Most of the domestic changes to necessary social programs taking place right now are "gross violations of basic decency." They need to be addressed. Now.

Your anger at me for my feelings about Ed Snowden seems genuinely misplaced when there are so many other issues that define who I am. I don't need to explain myself to you, any more than you need to explain yourself to me.

That's what the boy keeps

Donal — Fri, 05 Jul 2013 12:21:08 +0000

In reply to This reminds me a bit of a

That's what the boy keeps asking the man in Cormac McCarthy's The Road.

Well we have to have some

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 05 Jul 2013 10:49:34 +0000

In reply to I'd like badly for nations to

Well we have to have some units of organization. "Nation" is an arbitrary term - Kentucky could be suddenly called a nation, and what has changed? We could dissolve all political unions, and then we'd need to arrange someone picking up the trash and we'd start all over again.

I see the EU as something more of how nations adapt. Not perfect, could be other ways, but one model that's at least a big step forward from 1949 or pick your year. What changes might evolve in the next 50 years in the format?

Yeah, I think we have the

kyle flynn — Fri, 05 Jul 2013 09:03:37 +0000

In reply to Somewhere I heard and took to

Yeah, I think we have the 'love your country' bit and the sacrifice part down pat by now. Time to move on.