dagblog - Comments for "NRA's black commentator becomes Web sensation"

Please, the "New Black

PeraclesPlease — Mon, 29 Jul 2013 13:44:38 +0000

In reply to Southern Poverty Law Center

Please, the "New Black Panthers" has absolutely 0 to do with the "Black Panthers", and the Panthers have asked them repeatedly to stop using their name.

NBPP and Nation of Islam may be the "supremacist group" you're looking for - Black Panthers was more about protection & justice, not that Huey Newton was the nicest person you'd ever meet. At the time they were founded (1966) their agenda was pretty spot on for the times.

Southern Poverty Law Center

Orion — Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:56:58 +0000

In reply to I never thought of the

Southern Poverty Law Center lists the New Black Panthers as a racist, supremacist group. Black nationalism was loaded with very unhealthy attitudes - it's why MLK spoke down about it. It's also why that scene in Forrest Gump was so amazing - the scene where Forrest says "Sorry for interrupting your Black Panther meeting." Forrest was wearing a military uniform and being polite to black people - their whole ideology told them that was impossible.

Attitudes towards guns in the black community are not healthy. I have some close black friends who talked about "arming" themselves after this Zimmerman verdict. That is reactionary. I understand how it develops but it will not provide healthy outcomes for the children who are raised in that environment, for anyone. Meanwhile, all the gangsta rappers that are still popular (though not as much as they used to be) are playing a sort of power gang. I'm not black but I imagine a feeling of powerlessness and fear has been present in many American blacks for generations and owning a gun may dampen that down somehow.

I never thought of the

PeraclesPlease — Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:55:13 +0000

In reply to Yes - it's a fantastic idea

I never thought of the Panthers as a "racial supremacist group", sorry - I thought some were "black nationalists" - meaning they could have self-determinism, protection, the right to exist. Their tactics were sometimes in-your-face, but less than the police harassment they were resisting.

I'm also assuming we're not conflating the loser "New Black Panthers", and accepting that the Black Panthers certainly had socialist roots and some of the Panthers were more extremist than others. Overall, I just see it as "let's take back our streets", as a noble effort though doomed because of the direct attacks by the FBI.

[grazie re: Grant]

Yes - it's a fantastic idea

Orion — Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:03:56 +0000

In reply to http://letstalkbooksandpoliti

Yes - it's a fantastic idea to build policy around a racial supremacist group, Peracles. That'll put us on the right path.

BTW thank you for your comments on the Oscar Grant article I posted. I get very intense on this issue and a little overboard. I'm sorry if I've vented on you - it's my problem there, not yours.

Alot of nationalist groups

Orion — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 23:25:33 +0000

In reply to Of course they're a

Alot of nationalist groups make claims of wanting all sorts of social programs for their people. Black Panthers are black nationalists.

I don't really give a damn if

artappraiser — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 14:21:24 +0000

In reply to The Black Panthers are not

I don't really give a damn if what I am saying doesn't convince the gun owning voting public

Then why did you say

Somebody should tell Noir (That's his real name?) that the Second Amendment was created to protect the right of large groups of slaveowners to shoot down escaped slaves.

Your comment sure sounded like you thought he didn't know that, and if he knew that, it might change his thinking about guns.

Of course they're a

PeraclesPlease — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 12:58:16 +0000

In reply to The Black Panthers are not

Of course they're a progressive group - what the hell? Read their 10 points below.

Huey Newton used the 2nd Amendment as a basic point to allow blacks to defend themselves and self-police. That's not fear, that's not mayhem, that's not anarchy - that's the basic premise of a well-regulated militia to begin with. He's a million-miles away from purposeless Tea Party gun nuts who only see some abstract threat of government totalitarianism (missing the real developing government control in front of their eyes), while the Black Panthers saw regular government incursions into their neighborhoods and bodies carried out.

Just because you don't like guns doesn't mean that view defines every "progressive" organization.

The Ten Point Plan

WE WANT FREEDOM. WE WANT POWER TO DETERMINE THE DESTINY OF OUR BLACK AND OPPRESSED COMMUNITIES.
We believe that Black and oppressed people will not be free until we are able to determine our destinies in our own communities ourselves, by fully controlling all the institutions which exist in our communities.

WE WANT FULL EMPLOYMENT FOR OUR PEOPLE.
We believe that the federal government is responsible and obligated to give every person employment or a guaranteed income. We believe that if the American businessmen will not give full employment, then the technology and means of production should be taken from the businessmen and placed in the community so that the people of the community can organize and employ all of its people and give a high standard of living.

WE WANT AN END TO THE ROBBERY BY THE CAPITALISTS OF OUR BLACK AND OPPRESSED COMMUNITIES.
We believe that this racist government has robbed us and now we are demanding the overdue debt of forty acres and two mules. Forty acres and two mules were promised 100 years ago as restitution for slave labor and mass murder of Black people. We will accept the payment in currency which will be distributed to our many communities. The American racist has taken part in the slaughter of our fifty million Black people. Therefore, we feel this is a modest demand that we make.

WE WANT DECENT HOUSING, FIT FOR THE SHELTER OF HUMAN BEINGS.
We believe that if the landlords will not give decent housing to our Black and oppressed communities, then housing and the land should be made into cooperatives so that the people in our communities, with government aid, can build and make decent housing for the people.

WE WANT DECENT EDUCATION FOR OUR PEOPLE THAT EXPOSES THE TRUE NATURE OF THIS DECADENT AMERICAN SOCIETY. WE WANT EDUCATION THAT TEACHES US OUR TRUE HISTORY AND OUR ROLE IN THE PRESENT-DAY SOCIETY.
We believe in an educational system that will give to our people a knowledge of the self. If you do not have knowledge of yourself and your position in the society and in the world, then you will have little chance to know anything else.

WE WANT COMPLETELY FREE HEALTH CARE FOR All BLACK AND OPPRESSED PEOPLE.
We believe that the government must provide, free of charge, for the people, health facilities which will not only treat our illnesses, most of which have come about as a result of our oppression, but which will also develop preventive medical programs to guarantee our future survival. We believe that mass health education and research programs must be developed to give all Black and oppressed people access to advanced scientific and medical information, so we may provide our selves with proper medical attention and care.

WE WANT AN IMMEDIATE END TO POLICE BRUTALITY AND MURDER OF BLACK PEOPLE, OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOR, All OPPRESSED PEOPLE INSIDE THE UNITED STATES.
We believe that the racist and fascist government of the United States uses its domestic enforcement agencies to carry out its program of oppression against black people, other people of color and poor people inside the united States. We believe it is our right, therefore, to defend ourselves against such armed forces and that all Black and oppressed people should be armed for self defense of our homes and communities against these fascist police forces.

WE WANT AN IMMEDIATE END TO ALL WARS OF AGGRESSION.
We believe that the various conflicts which exist around the world stem directly from the aggressive desire of the United States ruling circle and government to force its domination upon the oppressed people of the world. We believe that if the United States government or its lackeys do not cease these aggressive wars it is the right of the people to defend themselves by any means necessary against their aggressors.

WE WANT FREEDOM FOR ALL BLACK AND OPPRESSED PEOPLE NOW HELD IN U. S. FEDERAL, STATE, COUNTY, CITY AND MILITARY PRISONS AND JAILS. WE WANT TRIALS BY A JURY OF PEERS FOR All PERSONS CHARGED WITH SO-CALLED CRIMES UNDER THE LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY.
We believe that the many Black and poor oppressed people now held in United States prisons and jails have not received fair and impartial trials under a racist and fascist judicial system and should be free from incarceration. We believe in the ultimate elimination of all wretched, inhuman penal institutions, because the masses of men and women imprisoned inside the United States or by the United States military are the victims of oppressive conditions which are the real cause of their imprisonment. We believe that when persons are brought to trial they must be guaranteed, by the United States, juries of their peers, attorneys of their choice and freedom from imprisonment while awaiting trial.

WE WANT LAND, BREAD, HOUSING, EDUCATION, CLOTHING, JUSTICE, PEACE AND PEOPLE'S COMMUNITY CONTROL OF MODERN TECHNOLOGY.
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience hath shown that mankind are most disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpation, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

The Black Panthers are not

Orion — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:33:12 +0000

In reply to You've got a lot of work set

The Black Panthers are not exactly known as a progressive group. They were extreme in their own time. I've heard arguments by right wingers (since I once was one) about blacks using guns to defend themselves against the Ku Klux Klan. It's Twilight Zone stuff.

And I'm not a politician. Guns have some emotional power appeal to alot of people. Remember the woman in that American Beauty who kept chanting "I am not a victim" movie while grabbing her Beretta? The power of death over life is indeed strong but it's an illusion.

A large portion of this population thinks guns are something they're not. They are built for murder and you better be prepared for the presence of a dead body or to be a dead body if you're going to have guns in your life.

As for that statistic about the portion of blacks who own guns, I am surprised it's not larger. There is certainly alot to be afraid about in the black community and fear motivates most gun ownership. What you and Peracles bring up is people who owned guns in response to extremism - it's not sane by definition.

I don't really give a damn if what I am saying doesn't convince the gun owning voting public (which hardly sounds like a majority from the numbers you gave). If parents sending their children to school only to find them riddled with holes and decomposing thanks to a madman who never would have been armed in a sane society isn't enough to convince the public to do something, even something modest! - then there's nothing that can be said that will be more convincing. By being against any legislation to stop mass murder like we are seeing, people are effectively saying that they like mass murder, they like death - that they like living like this.

Perhaps much of the public is not responsible enough to make sound decisions about safety and security. Perhaps more grounded people need to protect them from themselves.

You've got a lot of work set

artappraiser — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 16:17:55 +0000

In reply to It just goes to show that

You've got a lot of work set out for you, a lot of people to try to get outraged about this history. Because 18% of black Americans personally own a gun and 24% of the live in a household with them.

And don't forget that history is a continuum. Peracles is correct to point out the Black Panthers as pioneers of the current gun rights movement. Here's another article to that effect, one arguing that they were the true pioneers. You see slavery, many blacks might see an empowerment which someone like you may be trying to take away (i.e., if guns are outlawed, only rich white slaveowners will have them.) Just sayin'....I don't see your line of argument winning too many hearts and minds of those that need to be won over.

http://letstalkbooksandpoliti

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 09:26:25 +0000

In reply to It just goes to show that

http://letstalkbooksandpolitics.blogspot.cz/2013/07/huey-newton-black-panthers-and-right-to.html

[Note: Newton had just moved from Monroe Louisiana] Newton knew enough California law to know that he and his comrades had the right to carry loaded weapons as long as they were not carried in a threatening manner. One needed a license only for carrying a concealed weapon. It was also legal to drive around in a vehicle with weapons as long as they were not loaded. This meant that the Panthers could legally walk around displaying an awesome arsenal of loaded weaponry.

The next step was to force a public confrontation with the police. Not surprisingly, a police officer would take note of a group of black men climbing into a car carrying rifles. When the police inevitably came over to see what was going on they were told that they had no right to inspect the weapons. This interaction ensued.

"’Who in the hell do you think you are?’ the officer responded."
"’Who in the hell do you think you are?’ said Newton indignantly"
"The officers asked Newton to get out of the car. Newton did, but while getting up he simultaneously loaded a round of ammunition into his M1. Newton was careful to keep the gun pointed upward and not aimed at any of the officers."
"’What are you going to do with that gun?’ asked one of the stunned policemen."
"’What are you going to do with your gun?’ Newton replied"

Needless to say, this encounter drew a large number of gawking blacks. The police told them to disperse, but Newton yelled that they should stay because it was their legal right to observe police officers making an arrest as long as they didn’t interfere. The observing crowd and the fact that Newton was, in fact, following the law convinced the officers to back off and leave him be.

"It was a sunny day in Sacramento, the lily-white hub of California politics, when, on May 2, 1967, a group of twenty-four men and six women, all black and between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, parked in front of the Capital Building. As they got out of their cars, they loaded their guns, which included .357 magnums, 12-guage shotguns, and .45-caliber pistols."

"In front of the Capital is the West Lawn, a large, flat expanse of grass used for special events. This is where a group of mostly white eighth-graders were gathering for a fried chicken lunch with the governor, the former actor and future icon of the conservative movement, Ronald Reagan. The students stopped and stared in amazement as the Black Panthers marched right by. News crews there to cover the governor’s event saw the better story developing and rushed to follow the heavily armed Panthers."

A revolution did occur, but it didn’t involve radical blacks; radical members of the National Rifle Association (NRA) took control of the group and changed its emphasis from sporting uses of guns to guns to be used for self-defense.

"The new NRA-led gun rights movement was not only fueled by the laws passed to disarm the Black Panthers and other black radicals; it also echoed many of the principles espoused by the Panthers. Like the Panthers, modern gun enthusiasts didn’t view guns as valuable for sporting purposes; guns were about personal self-defense. Though justified as a way to fight crime, gun control laws were, in reality, just another way for elites to harass and oppress. Guns were not only for protecting your home; people should be allowed to carry them on the street for protection. Law enforcement was demonized as the enemy, prone to abusive behavior and disregard for the rights of people. The Panthers went to Sacramento to make their voices heard; the NRA lobbyists went to Washington."

The Black Panthers started the gun rights movement. The backlash of gun regulation by fearful whites helped bring about the collapse of the Panthers. The mostly white-driven NRA then, using the Panthers’ arguments, fought back against the imposed gun restrictions with considerable success.

Now we no longer worry about armed black revolutionaries fomenting trouble in our cities; now we have more heavily armed white revolutionaries running around the countryside training in anticipation the day when they will kill police, national guardsmen, or government employees who might be sent to ask them to do something they don’t wish to do.