dagblog - Comments for "Suicide Attack at Church in Pakistan "

Of course, the massacre at

Aaron Carine — Mon, 23 Sep 2013 12:35:04 +0000

In reply to We've killed innocents, but

Of course, the massacre at Nairobi was at a mall, not a church, my bad.

I agree with everything

Peter Schwartz — Mon, 23 Sep 2013 02:02:13 +0000

In reply to Suicide Attack at Church in Pakistan

I agree with everything above...

I just wish I felt we really understood what was going on and why.

I'm not sure we can do that sufficiently from this remove (geographically and culturally).

A few weeks back (eons ago it now seems) Steven Clemons said we, the US, should condemn the military coup in Egypt in clear terms.

His point was this: Religious Muslims (not only, but in particular) need to experience the efficacy of the democratic process and the peaceful transfer of power.

The lesson can't be that even if you win fair and square, you can be pushed out of office by people who don't agree with you who have more power than you, i.e., the army or anyone else.

I understand there was more to the Morsi ouster than "disagreement," and I also understand, though I'm not sure it's true, that the election wasn't as fair as portrayed.

But still, the other groups should have been allowed (required) to protest the Morsi government without having the democratic process short circuited by a coup. Without having their work done for them by the army.

Clemons's point was that Morsi's followers--read, fundamentalist Muslims--were being taught that the only way to exercise power is by armed force, and they will increasingly resort to what we see in this article.

Of course, they've been resorting to this for some time, but the election in Egypt was an opportunity to prove to them that there was a better way--democracy, politics, and the peaceful transfer of power.

Of course, they've had some kind of democracy in Pakistan for some time, so maybe what I'm saying isn't really applicable. But that's why I'd like to understand the dynamics at a more granular level.

We've killed innocents, but

Aaron Carine — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 23:57:00 +0000

In reply to Suicide Attack at Church in Pakistan

We've killed innocents, but the jihadists are definitely perpetrating greater horrors. Jeez, two congregations massacred almost at the same time.

Completely agree with: And

moat — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 23:18:07 +0000

In reply to It's the same old ignorance

Completely agree with:

And those who recruit and brainwash the suicide bomber boys are beyond evil.

Gathering a consensus upon such a matter is why I think more of an effort should be made to develop international institutions to oppose this.

It is not easy. There are many influences that corrupt the idea. But if we cannot build upon this very clear concept of inhumanity, who can argue against those who say that our spasmodic displays of concern about such behavior are only cover for actions driven by other motives?

"what is happening as far as

EmmaZahn — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 22:56:44 +0000

In reply to Dawn.com points to an

"what is happening as far as the abduction and conversion of Hindu girls in different parts of Sindh is concerned. In the last half a decade, the incidents of abduction and conversion have risen alarmingly. Official data shows that the number of these incidents has decreased recently though Ravi Davani, the secretary general of All Pakistan Hindu Panchayat, claims that the lower incidence is because there is pressure to stop their reporting."

Understandable given the tensions in relationships between Pakistan and India as well as between Muslims and Hindus, but probably futile as the ratio of men to women will likely get much worse in the next few decades. See:

“Pent-up Demand” for Sex-Selective Abortions Could Soon Be Unleashed | dagblog

And this thinking is present

artappraiser — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 22:25:32 +0000

In reply to This attack has nothing to do

And this thinking is present in the Al-Shabaab attackers in Nairobi too:

Then an Indian man came forward and they said, 'What is the name of Muhammad's mother?' When he couldn't answer they just shot him."

where all Muslims are worth saving, and all non Muslims worth killing. It did not matter that some of those Muslims they let go might be supporters of Kenyan troops in Somalia, and some of the non-Muslims they killed might be against that! All that mattered was their religion, not whether they agree politically.

This attack has nothing to do

artappraiser — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 22:16:46 +0000

In reply to I think we focus sometimes on

This attack has nothing to do with drone attacks, just like the attacks on churches in Egypt have nothing to do with drone attacks. It is about cleansing of kafir. Politics enter secondarily, when conspiracy theories about what the kafir are up to with political enemies are used to further demonize them. But it starts with the demonization of them by radical imams on a purely religious level.

The leader of Boko Haram

artappraiser — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 22:12:43 +0000

In reply to It's the same old ignorance

The leader of Boko Haram (whose name means "western education is sacrilege,") in Nigeria stresses how important it is:

"Teachers who teach western education? We will kill them. We will kill them in front of their students, and tell the students to henceforth study the Quran," Shekau said. “We are going to burn down the schools, if they are not Islamic religious schools for Allah.”

There had been talk of a ceasefire deal, with reports suggesting that last week the government signed an agreement with Boko Haram's second-in-command, but Shekau dismissed the idea.

“We will not enter into any agreement with non-believers or the Nigerian government,” he said

I think we focus sometimes on

Bruce Levine — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 22:11:14 +0000

In reply to It's the same old ignorance

I think we focus sometimes on our numerous, ongoing, and often indefensible failures as the world's most powerful nation. . .to the point where we just lose perspective on what really is evil. I mean even as I'm writing this I'm feeling guilty because I'm reacting more viscerally to this than I did say yesterday or two days ago when Shia and Sunni traded suicide attacks in Iraq. But this isn't about having anything against Islam by any stretch of the imagination--heaven forbid I should ever find myself in the same mindset of the haters in our own country who focus on anything foreign and distinct from our "Judeo-Christian" heritage. And, yes, those animals--I see them on FB already--will use this to foment hate against muslims in our own country-- and shame on them because those bigots have no idea what this country is supposed to be all about.

That said, no drone attack justifies this horror.

Heaven help us.

It's the same old ignorance

artappraiser — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 21:59:11 +0000

In reply to Not that there is any

It's the same old ignorance of olden days pogroms, Bruce. Because Allah supposedly tells them so. They've got to cleanse the non-believers and then they will be blessed. Right now they believe they are cursed by their presence. (You could even switch in ancient Aztec human sacrifice.)

This is why I despise Taliban equally or more so than Al Qaeda. Pre-emptive: that does not mean I think that U.S.A. needs to militarily save nations from their types. But Mullah Omar types deserve worldwide scorn, always and forever. And those who recruit and brainwash the suicide bomber boys are beyond evil. I don't know why so many have lost outrage about the latter, but I still find it a much more ugly crime than pedophilia, which gets all the outrage these days.