dagblog - Comments for "The Tragedy of the Will"

Also, many of these people

felonious grammar — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 23:45:00 +0000

Also, many of these people believe that their will is God's will. So, what appears to most people as trying to dig their way out of the hole they've dug themselves into. That makes about as much sense as clapping harder for Tinkerbell; but for them it's logical to double down on their faith until God gives in or something--- I don't know--- it doesn't really make any sense. Meanwhile they can nurse their aggrieved feelings and resentment by pretending to be martyrs serving God by <strike>suffering for their faith</strike> reveling in the suffering they cause others.

According to the distinction

Michael Wolraich — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 02:31:00 +0000

In reply to Sure. But how successful have

According to the distinction you yourself just drew, it's the long game that's important. As with most political movements, long-term growth has been inconsistent--two steps forward, one step back. I certainly wouldn't conclude from one off year that the movement has peaked. (I also don't think 2012 was all that off, they stayed more or less steady in national government and gained in the states.)

Sure. But how successful have

Doctor Cleveland — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:52:07 +0000

In reply to I agree with Donal, good

Sure. But how successful have those movement builders been lately? How did 2012 go for them?

I was thinking primarily about the actual Congressional Republicans. But it's not clear that the unelected movement conservatives are thinking clearly. The Koch Brothers are not going to advance their agenda if the US defaults.

Of course. But that just goes

Doctor Cleveland — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:49:52 +0000

In reply to That's a good distinction,

Of course. But that just goes to the point that you need more than willpower and belief. Washington ultimately won because of larger historical conditions. Gandhi won because the British were generally losing their grip on their empire after World War II. MLK achieved many goals that previous, equally determined, black leaders could not, because the environment was finally right, and left other goals unachieved because the time for them was still not right.

Vision and willpower help. They might even be necessary ingredients. But they're never the whole story.

Ha

Michael Wolraich — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 22:23:42 +0000

In reply to Especially when the dream is

I agree with Donal, good

Michael Wolraich — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 22:22:00 +0000

In reply to I think the key distinction

I agree with Donal, good distinction. But I would add a caveat. In politics, as opposed to war, short-term losses are often part of the long-term strategy. Many visionary leaders have engaged in battles they were certain to lose in order to build support for their cause.

While there may be many plenty of congressional dopes/dupes who think they can pull this off, the real strategists behind it--Heritage et al--are experienced movement builders. They've been doing this for decades. I expect they have no illusions that this campaign will eliminate ACA this month. What it will do is:

1) Continue the battle so that the public does not treat ACA as a done deal

2) Make ACA a litmus test to eliminate moderate Republicans

That doesn't mean they'll get it right. If they overplay their hand, they could create a backlash. But I do think there is method to the madness.

That's a good distinction,

Donal — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:41:07 +0000

In reply to I think the key distinction

That's a good distinction, but the fledging nation was also lucky to be up against the English while they were busy with bigger wars.

THEY do not want a plan at

Richard Day — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:24:33 +0000

In reply to The Tragedy of the Will

THEY do not want a plan at all.

THEY wish to shut down the Federal Government.

THEY wish a civil war and we have no Grant or Sherman around to do anything about it.

I say, let THEM secede and not succeed.

We still have California and NY besides twenty or more states that would stick with US.

Our new Congress of course would be forbidden to allow any defense contracts or any other types of governmental contracts to be allowed to businesses doing business in those new Confederate States--EVER by the guidelines put in place by our new Constitution.

Screw em.

There are no moderate repubs or they would have signed on to the House Democratic proposal that would put forth a CR onto the House Floor.

The repubs do not wish for Blacks or Hispanics or the downtrodden to vote.

The repubs no longer wish to pay taxes.

The repubs hate this country with a vengence.

LET THEM GO.

I think the key distinction

Doctor Cleveland — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 20:28:44 +0000

In reply to How does one assess the

I think the key distinction is the ability to evaluate short-term, as opposed to long-term goals. Successfully visionaries have believed that they could do the impossible in the long-term. The ones who succeeded tended to be extremely hard-headed about their immediate prospects, and strategize accordingly.

The Tea Party would not be delusional to believe that they will ultimately reshape American politics in their image. Even if they're wrong about that, it's not delusional. But the Tea PArty are now unable to make realistic evaluations of what is going to happen next week. That is when things stop being visionary and start being delusional.

George Washington believed that he could ultimately defeat the world's most powerful military and force their withdrawal from the original 13 states. That is a long-term vision, tied to a set of long-term strategies. But Washington was often keenly aware that his troops could not survive a frontal assault on the British forces. His short-term evaluations were hard-nosed and realistic. He believed that he could *eventually* beat the British, if he kept his army together long enough and gave himself time to keep building it. He did *not* believe that he could will himself to victory in a pitched battle against superior numbers and firepower. He retreated, again and again. His will to win was about the big picture, not the tactical situation.

Saying, "this company will make us all rich someday if he stick together and believe in it" is not crazy. Saying "the money for next week's payroll will show up if we just believe" is completely crazy.

The Tea Party has gotten to the point where they don't just believe they will win the war someday, but that they will win every individual fight along the way, no matter the circumstances. That's the difference between being Ronald Reagan and being Ted Cruz.

Especially when the dream is

Verified Atheist — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 19:51:10 +0000

In reply to How does one assess the

Especially when the dream is about a pipe.