dagblog - Comments for "NELSON MANDELA IS DEAD!"

The bottom line is that most

rmrd0000 — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 15:34:44 +0000

In reply to I don't see the claim that he

The bottom line is that most men abused and imprisoned like Mandela would not have turned out the way he did.Mandela's ability to be angry but to forgive for the good of the country makes him 20-dimensional.

The idea that people who praise Mandela, Martin Luther King, etc don't take into consideration the warts is ridiculous. Mandela was not nonviolent but he began with the least lethal option as a beginning. Martin Luther King was nonviolent, but realized that he was aided by the threat that Malcolm X represented to those in power.

At the end of the day, both men accomplished great things. The need to search for flaws in individuals seems to me as much of a problem as those who claim that we should get the dirt on the guy. Bias is in operation in either case.

Mandela committed violence, Martin Luther King put children at risk. Mandela was a poor father. Martin Luther King Jr was an adulterer. The important part of both stories for future generations is how did both men find the courage to do what they did.What internal mechanism kept them going? That is the more important question to me. The tabloid stuff is just mental catnip.

I don't see the claim that he

Peter Schwartz — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 14:48:47 +0000

In reply to I'm having trouble seeing

I don't see the claim that he was a 13-dimensional chess type; maybe I missed it.

If you like your heroes with human flaws, then isn't Mandela the hero for you?

I guess the temptation to glorify or condemn folks on their way up Mount Olympus is hard to resist. Somehow, we feel the need to do it.

I'm a bit like you and AA: I like to explore all the nooks and crannies of a person's life and see what was what. Keep that broad brush in the pail.

It's possible to describe big achievements in a way that makes them seem ordinary, and I think you've done that a bit here. For example...

"...and could smooth track the fast transition to majority rule and provide an informative but not overly punitive review of apartheid - letting the country move forward."

That's a HUGE accomplishment in my book, a point you allow in your next sentence where you describe how bad it could (easily) have been. "Smooth track"? What about the courage and personal and leadership qualities required to do that? Could he have accomplished that if he had not been held in such high esteem by so many people?

But overall, I don't see anyway around it: Mandela was a great man who made many sacrifices for his people and country. He could've just decided to leave bad enough alone and gone about his business like other people did. It's good and necessary to uncover all of him, including his flaws, but it seems churlish to deny him this honor.

The outpouring of feeling

rmrd0000 — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 13:52:55 +0000

In reply to I'm having trouble seeing

The outpouring of feeling from the South African public to Nelson Mandela's life seem to suggest your viewpoint is limited to yourself.

I'm having trouble seeing

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:10:04 +0000

In reply to Maybe the question--was

I'm having trouble seeing Mandela as a 13-dimensional chess type. As he noted early on, he had 4 levels of resistance available to him, and he started out with the least damaging. Bravo, at least an intelligent game plan. No, he didn't denounce violence, because he wasn't dealing with the British whose conscientious wives would lead the domestic movement against Indian atrocities.

But what did he actually do? Mostly he sat in jail for decades, and refused to leave under compromising terms. Again, a noble stand, and in the end very helpful in enabling his stature, but not 13-dimensional.

And then, his last characteristic seems to be that for someone who spent 30 years in jail, he turned out to be a really nice guy who could put people at ease, had some steadfastness of morals, and could smooth track the fast transition to majority rule and provide an informative but not overly punitive review of apartheid - letting the country move forward.

If you want to consider how bad it could have been, there are a number of prime examples such as Mugabe and Mobutu, or Mandela's own wife Winnie. (though to be fair, it was easier for Mandela not to be tempted by power by sitting in jail rather than running the day-to-day operations of an outlawed and persecuted resistance)

There's a good parallel between Mandela and Guzmão of East Timor.

I like my heroes with human flaws and complexities, not superficial 1-dimensional features. The book (not movie) "Last Temptation of Christ" is a wonderful example of how humanness enhances rather than detracts from a character.

Yeah, from what I know.

Peter Schwartz — Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:27:33 +0000

In reply to Or Sinn Fein?

Yeah, from what I know.

George Washington is

rmrd0000 — Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:25:14 +0000

In reply to Fox News would label Martin

George Washington is remembered as a great leader in the colonists fight for freedom, not as a terrorist against the British. Quantrill's Raiders are remembered as outlaws, terrorists if you will. The Raiders killed 150 men and boys in Lawrence, Kansas they are not remembered as freedom fighter.

Say what you will, those who are respected have their images cleaned up to freedom fighter, not terrorist. Those who admire John a Brown, Denmark Vesey, etc do not label them terrorists but freedom fighters

Can you name a respected "terrorist" accepted as a hero by society where there has not been an image cleanup?

Thus the North settled the

rmrd0000 — Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:16:43 +0000

In reply to ?Anyone who clings to the

Thus the North settled the issue of expanding slavery in the United States.

Or Sinn Fein?

Richard Day — Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:14:39 +0000

In reply to Maybe the question--was

Or Sinn Fein?

?Anyone who clings to the

PeraclesPlease — Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:16:31 +0000

In reply to Not sure #1 can be entirely

“Anyone who clings to the historically untrue—and thoroughly immoral—doctrine that, ‘violence never settles anything’ I would advise to conjure the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedom.”

- Colonel DuBois, Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein

Fox News would label Martin

rmrd0000 — Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:39:31 +0000

In reply to Mandela was not nonviolent.

Fox News would label Martin Luther King Jr. a terrorist

Malcolm X espoused freedom by any means necessary even violence. He would be labeled a terrorist.

The terrorist label is used to deflect attention from the original actions that led to the freedom fighter's response. Avoiding the word terrorist is not emasculating, it is liberating. Freedom fighter focuses attention on the abuses causing the response.