dagblog - Comments for "A campaign that is gathering weight"

Sorry, double post deleted.

A Guy Called LULU — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 19:06:38 +0000

In reply to A campaign that is gathering weight

Sorry, double post deleted.

Israel boycott fears

A Guy Called LULU — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:32:45 +0000

In reply to A campaign that is gathering weight

Israel boycott fears facilitated 2 foreign bidders to withdraw ports tender

The deterioration of Israel’s international standing has been evident this week as at least two leading international companies bidding to build private seaports here dropped out of the government’s tender due to concerns over the political repercussions.

http://www.israelandstuff.com/israel-boycott-fears-facilitated-2-foreign...

Pedants "r us--Voltaire

jollyroger — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:26:55 +0000

In reply to My mother would chide me for

Pedants "r us--Voltaire picked it up from Diderot and modified it slightly. I prefer Voltaire's version.

Fair points Aaron.

Bruce Levine — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 02:57:44 +0000

In reply to The ongoing evictions of

Fair points Aaron.

The ongoing evictions of

Aaron Carine — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 02:33:42 +0000

In reply to Peter, There is certainly de

The ongoing evictions of Bedouins, the denial of utilities to some Arab villages, and the JNF's(recently modified) policy of not selling or leasing to non-Jews are reason to doubt whether Israeli Arabs really have equal rights under the law.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/11/rage-protests-bedouin-e...

My mother would chide me for

Aaron Carine — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 02:26:16 +0000

In reply to object to the existence of a

My mother would chide me for being pedantic, but the comment about strangulation actually came from Diderot.

Peter, There is certainly de

Bruce Levine — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 01:08:27 +0000

In reply to It's hard to know... The most

Peter,

There is certainly de facto discrimination against Israeli Arabs, of course. But Arab citizens have the same legal rights as Jewish Israelis. The discrimination as a matter of law is found in the territories. I'd be surprised if anyone outside of Israel would be promoting BDS on the basis of de facto discrimination, particularly in places like the US and Europe.

The whole purpose of voting for partition was to allow Jews from around the world to return home, and home they came and not just from the scattered remnants from Europe. I would recommend that you read Benny Morris' 1948 and the book I referred to a couple of weeks ago, Shavit's My Promised Land. Both painful for Zionists like yours truly, but real Peter. It was war.

A special UN appointed committee studied the issue with intensitiy, recommended partition, had it approved by the General Assembly, was agreed to by the Palestinian Jews, and was uniformly rejected by the Arab world. On the date that the British Mandate expired, the fledgling Jewish State was attacked by the armies of four nations. Horrible things happened -- there were massacres, there were expulsions, and there are things that happened that Shavit refers to as "Zionism's Black Box," and in particular for what happened in the Arab city of Lydda on the road between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Still, some folks may wish to support BDS on the basis of what happened in 1948, but to me it takes quite a bit of intellectual pretzel twisting to justify that position.

I wish the Israeli people had listened to Ben Gurion and others and had found a way to give back occupied territory. And, yes, then who knows what would have happened? Unlike Arens, I would like to believe that there are millions upon millions of folks who would recognize the right of Israelis to live in peace, but simply cannot condone the continued occupation of the Palestinian People.

Ponder this. When Israel declared its independence in 1948 it was only 58 years from when Native Americans suffered their final humiliation at Wounded Knee. It is now going on 66 years since Israel's independence. I have nothing but daylight between anyone who would boycott Israel because of what happened in a war it didn't start 66 years ago.

P.S. Get your ass over to Israel and see things for yourself! Just don't take one of them tours. Talk to me. :)

P.P.S. I refer to Wounded Knee as the final humiliation for Native Americans. That relates to war. The humiliation of Native Americans continues and is a national disgrace. Forgive me for suggesting otherwise.

It is not writ in stone that

Bruce Levine — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 01:06:49 +0000

In reply to Yes, it's helpful to be

It is not writ in stone that boycotting of goods produced by a certain ethnic group due to irrational prejudices (i.e., don't buy your food or fabric from Jews or Kurds or Kafirs) will always be followed by loss of civil rights, purges, pogroms and gas chambers. It can also go in another direction if the makers know what needs to be done to win enough buyers back, leaving the irrational boycotters a small minority.

Nothing is etched in stone and certainly not what will happen in the future, I agree, and it's the stuff that makes me a pariah among my fellow congregants, and often in a far more personal way, because there ain't no avatars on Shabbat. And I'm challenged by my brothers and sisters because that historical continuum is all too real. Who am I, it is so often said, to suggest that under current circumstances history will not repeat itself?

I think APN is trying to forge a path that will galvanize those who wish for peace and security for both peoples. And I will certainly think twice before I buy anything manufactured on the east side of the green line. And, candidly, you're a principal reason for that, because I say without reservation and utmost sincerity that I trust your judgment and I trust your heart. Thanks for making my reality that much more fakakta AA. :)

It's hard to know... The most

Peter Schwartz — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 21:08:10 +0000

In reply to A campaign that is gathering weight

It's hard to know...

The most enthusiastic critics of Israel don't like it as a Jewish state at all.

They find the whole project nothing more than a stealing of most of the land now comprising Israel proper.

They are anti-Zionists period, not just anti-occupationists.

But it's hard to know what would have happened if Israel had given back most of the land it captured in 1967, as I believe Ben Gurion recommended, at least initially.

Would we have gotten to this point?

I don't know enough of the facts, Bruce, but I read in various places that Israeli Arabs really don't have equality within Israel even though they can vote and hold office.

Can't remember the particulars, but owning land may be much harder for them, among other normal citizen functions.

I guess if we say that I, a Jew who has never been to Israel, can go there and instantly become a citizen and have more rights than an Arab who's lived there or whose family has lived there for generations...it's hard to call that equal. No?

And I was trying to point out

artappraiser — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 21:03:10 +0000

In reply to Well, yes, once we're done

And I was trying to point out that France would be like one of the last places that would happen, partly because of ideas inherent from the creation of the Republic itself.

Many religious tribes at least have a goal of growth of believers, looking for numbers as large as possible, crossing all kinds of boundaries, not purposefully trying to keep a small, exclusive club.

The essay to which I linked really made me cognizant of some major conundra on this whole issue; a key excerpt:

...I became a philosopher, like many others, in large part because I imagined that doing so would enable me to rise above the murky swamp of local attachment, of ethnic and provincial loyalty, and to embrace the world as a whole, to be a true cosmopolitan. Yet history shows that many philosophers only grow more attached to their national or ethnic identity as a result of their philosophical education....