dagblog - Comments for "Obama Sparks All-Out Revolt Over Socially Conservative Judicial Nominee"

Oh yeah, the balanced budget

Anonymous PP — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 08:36:38 +0000

In reply to I still think that 2004

Oh yeah, the balanced budget created by pushing through *increased taxes* against the St. Ronnie "cutting taxes spurs growth" doctrine. And he managed to keep us out of stupid wars - with Bosnia & Kosovo mostly aerial actions, rather than trillion dollar boots-on-the-ground. All sounds easy in retrospect - he was derided for not doing more against Hussein than firing some cruise missiles in, but overall, overflights and sanctions were effective in containment for a decade at a fraction of the cost of a stupid war.

I still think that 2004

Anonymous PP — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 08:32:29 +0000

In reply to Instead of having a

I still think that 2004 speech and the famous 2003 anti-Iraq War speech were shameless posturing, similar to to his "against FISA before he was for it".

The difference with Hillary's getting involved with military issues is she rather publicly acknowledged needing some security cred to compete (especially with all the Bill Clinton draft-dodging, left-the-military-unprepared-for-9/11, let Arabs-do-Cole bullshit from the right, but also just the general situation that Democrats frequently left the military field unchallenged)

"Not sure she was a big progressive, but I could be wrong." Even a quick Wikipedia glimpse at Hillary's record includes decades of work on women's & children's issues, poverty, family, rural health, child defense, work on the board & head of the liberal New World Foundation, the failed effort at universal health care and the successful follow-on SCHIP for kids and the best-known women's conference in Beijing during the 90's... as well as work on McGovern campaigns and as assistant for the Watergate Committee early on.

I'm pretty amazed that the only thing that shines through is her work for military issues.

Similarly, Clinton's reform of welfare & balancing the budget? He presided over one of our greatest periods of economic growth & transformation to the internet economy, under him black poverty and black-on-black murder were cut to *one-third* of their previous rate (yes, incarceration greatly expanded). Both welfare & the budget were handled via greater prosperity, not cutting services during a recession - black unemployment greatly decreased, black home ownership and participation in middle class government jobs greatly increased. Unfairly, Bush came in and really fucked up welfare reform, but Clinton gets blamed for that because folks on the left can't seem to read or remember.

Unlike the 2012 campaign where no substantive issues were discussed, all of these things were debated ferociously in 2008 - it's very frustrating to see how little of this stuck in our awareness for discussion 6 years later.

I'm not claiming either

ocean-kat — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 06:15:51 +0000

In reply to Instead of having a

I'm not claiming either Obama, Bill or Hillary are big progressives. Just stating my opinion of the degree they differ. As I posted I'd likely have been disappointed with Hillary too if she had won.

I disagree with your analysis of Bill. A balanced budget isn't an exclusive republican goal. Progressives favor it as well. The differences we have with republicans are how and when. Progressives are generally Keynesian and advocate for deficit spending during recessions while waiting for growth periods to balance the budget or pay down debt. Clinton's budget act was both timely, during a period of high growth, and consisted of mostly tax hikes on the wealthy. I consider myself a pretty far left liberal and I mostly approved of it.

Obama couldn't even get those Clinton tax hikes back when all he had to do was let Bush's cuts expire. One might try to blame that lousy compromise on Reid but many articles at the time claimed Reid was pissed when Obama sent Biden in to reach that deal with McConnell. I also read that in some of the later deal making Reid told Obama that he wouldn't get involved unless Obama promised not to send Biden in to scuttle his deal.

I wasn't happy about the welfare act, as with many of Bill's policies, but reform was coming. He did fight hard for protections for the poor, especially children, and for that reason vetoed two welfare reform bills passed by congress before signing the third. I can't see Obama ever doing something like that.

This latest deal that you've referred to as "standard deal cutting" is just one more of a long list of gifts to republicans and capitulations by Obama imo. I don't think it would have been considered standard in the Clinton White house. I no longer think its just Obama's poor negotiating skills or lack of the partisan fighting skills you credit Bill with. I think he's very comfortable with republican positions. He's very much an old style moderate republican of the center right.

I'll let it go with that as I think we're all going to be sick of talking about Hillary a year from now. I'm trying to wait until after the midterm elections to start that conversation.

Instead of having a

Peter Schwartz — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 02:30:11 +0000

In reply to I'm sure I would have been

Instead of having a Maris-Mantle debate, I'll say this...

I still think the 2004 convention speech is the mother lode for figuring him out. From the beginning, he wanted to go beyond the divide and has only reluctantly conceded that that isn't possible at this time.

Bill was/is more partisan and a tougher partisan fighter than Obama. But it's hard to say that he was the left of Obama ideologically. His signature achievements were reforming welfare and balancing the budget. He pretty much invented triangulation.

I don't know Hillary's record in the Senate, but vague recollections say she dug into military affairs in particular. Not sure she was a big progressive, but I could be wrong.

I'm sure I would have been

ocean-kat — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 23:40:22 +0000

In reply to Not sure why you have to

I'm sure I would have been disappointed if Hillary had won. And I'll likely be as hard on her as Obama while in office if she wins in 2016. That being said I think a good argument can be made that Bill was to the left of Obama and Hillary to the left of Bill. I very much doubt Hillary will be as much as a push over as Obama has been. But there's not much to be gained by debating the 2008 primary all over again.

Not sure why you have to

Peter Schwartz — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 23:23:38 +0000

In reply to I have been obliged to

Not sure why you have to apologize to them.

Hillary, if anything, is to the right of Obama and would have done much of what he's doing now. Hard to see how these supporters could argue anything other.

Anyway, we might get a chance to find out...

Standard deal cutting.

Peter Schwartz — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 22:54:04 +0000

In reply to Obama Sparks All-Out Revolt Over Socially Conservative Judicial Nominee

Standard deal cutting.

One didn't even have to read

Peter Schwartz — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 22:50:46 +0000

In reply to All they had to do to is read

One didn't even have to read the post.

All one had to do is listen to his 2004 speech.

All they had to do to is read

artappraiser — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 22:44:40 +0000

In reply to I have been obliged to

All they had to do to is read this 2005 DKos post by the then Senator and perhaps Audacity of Hope if one had more time, it's all in there. He wasn't hiding anything, and when he ran for president, it would be kind of crazy to expect him to say "hey you liberal Obamabots, if you read my book, you'd know you don't really want someone like me. Just because my speechwriter recycles RFK and MLK Jr. catchphrases is not a sufficient reason to presume I am what you want." He was supposed to look a gift horse in the mouth? As far as I'm concerned a lot of it was reverse racial prejudice; I certainly saw a lot of that in people like M.J. Rosenberg, just totally so in love with the color of Obama's skin and a few speech quotes that he would totally ignore all the policy positions Obama put in print that were antithetical to his own.

I have been obliged to

jollyroger — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 21:51:23 +0000

In reply to It'd be nice to get an

I have been obliged to apologize to the Hilary supporters who warned us that this would happen...