dagblog - Comments for "Crimea and the morality of seccession"

Similar issues addressed in

artappraiser — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 21:30:28 +0000

In reply to Crimea and the morality of seccession

Similar issues addressed in this, though not along moral lines:

Crimea Crisis Revives Issue of Secession’s Legitimacy
By Peter Baker, New York Times, March 8, 2014

[....]Consider the different American views of recent bids for independence.

Chechnya? No.

East Timor? Yes.

Abkhazia? No.

South Sudan? Yes.

Palestine? It’s complicated.

It is an acutely delicate subject in the West, where Britain wants to keep Scotland and Spain wants to keep Catalonia. The United States, after all, was born in revolution, breaking away from London without consent of the national government — something that the Obama administration insists Crimea must have. The young American union later fought a civil war to keep the South from breaking away. Even today, there is occasional fringe talk of secession in Texas.

“No state has been consistent in its application of this,” said Samuel Charap [....]

I found that New Yorker link

artappraiser — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 21:18:31 +0000

In reply to Minority groups do not always

I found that New Yorker link especially helpful in understanding the problem. It's not your garden variety "Muslim ethnicity vs. Christian ethnicity for centuries" situation. Because many of those in Crimea now are basically returnees from Stalin's brutal ethnic cleansing of them from Crimea. So now it's a little like if Jim Crow was re-enacted in the South after northern blacks had started returning to the South because it was no longer the Jim Crow South...how will the new Jim Crow be different from the old one?...would you be willing to give them a chance and work with them?....and would your neighbors regress to their old selves...?

From what I read, the Russian

Peter Schwartz — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 16:16:59 +0000

In reply to And what do you think those

From what I read, the Russian economy is not in good shape for the average person. Not for oligarchs or cronies who've always done well, even in the USSR.

EU isn't in the greatest of shape, either, but the living standard appears to be much higher. On top of which, they have political freedom and aren't living under a dictator trained in the ways and ethos of notorious secret service.

And what do you think those

PeraclesPlease — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 13:58:48 +0000

In reply to Listening to the news

And what do you think those differences would be? Crimea won't be poor - they'll get the rich Russian tourists no matter what.

[I kinda ignore the ethnic/economic/demographic shift here - Russian-speaking Ukraine is dying at a fairly fast rate - mortality rate is huge across many parts of Ukraine, 3 Russian regions lost over 400,000 in population along with Donetsk that lost 850,000. Average life expectancy is a good 4 years less than west Ukraine. And the money's better in Russian areas (excluding Kiev's huge lead), but that can be traditional heavy industry that doesn't translate into individual wealth and of course factories & mines carry their health impact.

Minority groups do not always

rmrd0000 — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 13:06:57 +0000

In reply to Crimea and the morality of seccession

Minority groups do not always benefit from secessions. It will be interesting to see how Tatars, a Sunni Muslim ethnic group are treated after Crimea breaks away. There is a history of the group being abused under Stalin and many want no part in returning to Russian control. If the Tatars are targeted, Russia's strained relationship with Turkey could worsen. In addition, Muslims in other parts of Russia could become energized.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-crimea-tatars-20140306,0,83592...

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2014/03/who-will-protect-...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/03/06/ukraine-economy/6090...

Listening to the news

Peter Schwartz — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 02:00:31 +0000

In reply to Crimea and the morality of seccession

Listening to the news tonight, it seems that at least one other, and probably a number of other, pro-Russian sections of Ukraine may end trying to break off as well.

It might make sense for the western part of Ukraine to let these folks go and join Russia while they cozy up to the EU.

After a few years, the differential in living standards and political freedoms should make Crimea and the other Russia-centric provinces regret the move.

Good article. I've said

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 22:57:59 +0000

In reply to Crimea and the morality of seccession

Good article. I've said before that people should have a right to secede, but not under external gunpoint & other extreme conditions. Having a hoodlum rule the state seems perfect. Who knows, maybe a few Russian-Ukrainians will come to their senses.