dagblog - Comments for "CONSENSUS"

This is not a stupid

Richard Day — Wed, 02 Apr 2014 22:47:10 +0000

This is not a stupid perspective.

You know Trope, what I found interesting in my short lifetime were the pix of folks like Khrushchev and Brezhnev.

Here is Nikita:

And here is Leonid

Leonid clearly has more 'Asian' features than Nikita.

But then again, we get the term 'Russia' from the Russ who were Vikings and yet we have Genghis Kahn running throughout what we now know as Russia into Asia with no discernable Viking traits I can find except a need for rape and pillage. hahahahah

Somehow Anthropologists just decided there were three 'races of men' and then there was the New World and there were kind of four races of men but they decided that Native Americans were all 'Asian' and then....

Then there were the Australians. hahahahahah

Again, I just found this discussion about Brazilian Anthropologists really interesting.

It is possible that the

Elusive Trope — Wed, 02 Apr 2014 21:55:33 +0000

In reply to You're absolutely right to

It is possible that the diversity in appearances already existed in Siberia from various tribes who decided that it was best to migrate for whatever reason, the conditions being so bad where they were that they took their entire nation across the bridge. The ones who re-migrated back theoretically and have the appearance of North American inhabitants may have looked that way before crossing the bridge.

You're absolutely right to

Verified Atheist — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 12:33:43 +0000

In reply to I don't think I was

You're absolutely right to point out how the specter of disease could have had a profound impact on our current-day efforts to try to work backwards in trying to determine what the population of the Americas looked like prior to 1500.

My point about how quickly appearances can change is just that I think it's entirely feasible that we could have gotten the wide variety of indigenous peoples we see in the Americas even if all of them arrived originally over the Bering land bridge. (And of course, you're right that there is some evidence of the insertion of Norse genetics in the extreme north eastern regions of the Americas.)

I hope you understand that my reference to dogs was not meant in anyway to compare the indigenous peoples to dogs, at least no more than it is to compare all peoples to dogs. I cast my lot in with the group that believe that dogs have domesticated us as much as we domesticated them. As for genetic purebreds? Either all of us or none of us, depending on how one defines it.

I loved your oral history,

Richard Day — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:59:37 +0000

In reply to I don't think I was

I loved your oral history, where did the four or five or whatever races of Homo Sapiens arose and where they arose. Hell that is why I put in my fable about Leaky.

And from what I have read over the many decades involves all these different humans we espy in the Americas today and a century ago.

Hell, Columbus notes in his diaries that Black folks were already here when he arrived although his diaries also note UFO's. hahahaha

Some of these 'tribes' in the tropical forests down south, do not look like (whatever not look like means) Ojibwas up here. Or the Sioux or many other tribes still extant today despite 'our' plan to wipe them all out.

And there has been all of this cultural diffusion going on for centuries, hell millennia!

I love your parables more than some of our 'established science' of where 'we' come from.

And Flower, you already know that oral histories and songs created the Iliad and the Odyssey and Genesis. All three books just record in writing old old old songs of the past.

I don't think I was

wabby — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:37:41 +0000

In reply to I think you're

I don't think I was underestimating how quickly appearances can change. I think I was saying just exactly that.

I cannot underestimate how quickly appearances change, especially in the case of NA's, simply because there are so few genetic examples of full-blooded Indians left to examine. Most of these members remain isolated by choice.

The mingling of races, or mutts, to use the dog example, were not only a result of opportunity but of necessity in order to survive European diseases. There were practicalities to consider.

So, of course there was a quick and direct change in appearances. Yet there are profound indicators of race that can't be bred out of us. I will use the example of the epicanthic eyelid because while it showed up on my face, it is absent from my three sisters. In fact, I am the only one that gets asked if I am a "real" Indian.

Those NA's that were able to resist the diseases and retain their full-blooded status were and are from tribes originally located mostly in the North Eastern parts of North America. The theory that I've heard is that there must have been some mingling with the Norse in the long time ago that provided some health protection to those able to resist. The Norse would have arrived by sea, probably doing the "coastal float" as Mr. Day suggests. Seems feasible to me and would also indicate that there was a mingling between races very early on.

Exactly who are the genetic purebreds? Even poodles started out as wolves.

There is compromise theory

Richard Day — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 20:29:35 +0000

In reply to I think you're

There is compromise theory out there.

I call it the coastal float.

You are on the sea but only float along coastal lines.

After all, in the Pacific you might go from island to island but you will lose sight of land for awhile.

But the coastal floaters never lost sight of land, or rarely lost sight of land.

You can carry more stuff on a raft/boat than on your back and you can fish in coves for food and you can land from time to time for your greens or other more meaty dishes.

No absolutely not. No one

ocean-kat — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:49:16 +0000

In reply to Are wisdom teeth intelligent

No absolutely not. No one intelligent would include wisdom teeth in the design. That's just one of the many problems with Intelligent Design. But my theory of Idiot Savant Design solves those problems. I think its about to go viral once those in the evangelical community hear of it. Most of them are half idiot savant already.

I think you're

Verified Atheist — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 16:33:10 +0000

In reply to It's hard to leave a trail of

I think you're underestimating how quickly appearances can change. After all, look how many new wild and crazy dog breeds we've introduced in the last two centuries alone.

As for the breadcrumbs, while you're considering the phenotype (the variables in the appearances), geneticists have been examining the genotype, and the genotype largely bears out the land-bridge hypothesis. Of course, by "land-bridge", we're talking about something on par with Texas:

Again, that's not to say that it's impossible for people to have reached the Americas by sea, it's just that the genetic evidence supporting such a theory has been lacking, as far as I know. (It's not my field, so new data might have changed this.)

It's hard to leave a trail of

wabby — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 16:03:06 +0000

In reply to CONSENSUS

It's hard to leave a trail of breadcrumbs on the ocean.

It is reasonable to conjecture that homo sapiens made sea voyages just to see what was "out there". I mean, if curiosity was only in the realm of modern man, there would be no modern man.

And it's also reasonable to conjecture that not all of the First Americans arrived via a land bridge. (I mean, I've always had this picture in my head of a bunch of Chinese fellers marching single file over the land bridge and magically turning into Indians just before they got here but keeping the Epicanthic eyelid just for fun.) But, not all of the indigenous (for lack of a better word) could have arrived that way. There are just too many variables in the appearances of modern Indians.

So, it just seems reasonable that others arrived in the New World by sea, even if it was by accident. Because that's the only other way they could get here, right? Barring aliens.

Anyhoo, here's a little tidbit of information that you might enjoy, Mr. Day: According to many Native American oral histories,there are not three races, but four. In order of creation, first was Asian, next came NA's, then Black, and lastly White. You won't find this written down in any book. This is pure oral tradition.

It will always remain a shame that a lot of historical knowledge of the New World was dismissed by the "discovering" Europeans simply because of the method of recording.
Hopefully, that is changing. There is a small horde of young NA anthro's working on blending the information.

I do not mean to completely

Verified Atheist — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:23:33 +0000

In reply to That is another omission in

I do not mean to completely discount the sea theories. While not conclusive, there has been plenty of intriguing evidence supporting the idea. While there is not the scientific consensus for it that there is for the land bridge, neither is there a scientific consensus that there was no sea settlement.