dagblog - Comments for "Reparations Open Thread"

So I've been thinking a bit

Peter Schwartz — Tue, 27 May 2014 19:42:39 +0000

In reply to Broadening the scope would've

So I've been thinking a bit about what it means to "make the case for reparations."

Here are a few thoughts:

• Clearly, to make the case that A owes B, we don't also need to make the case that A owes C money, even if that's true. Why would we?

• "Making the case for reparations" could be a generalized case that shows why later generations are obligated to pay the debts of previous generations. There's some support for this when we think about the national debt which is money "we" owe even though some of the debt was incurred before we were born.

• The generalized case might also cover whether we can say a debt was incurred when there was no accounting for it. In fact, if we say that whites stole blacks' labor, then is that really a "debt" per se? So, is it a debt and, if so, how do we measure it?

• What if the debt is so high, we could never repay it?

• As Begin argued at the time German reparations were being considered, does monetizing pain and suffering trivialize the pain and suffering? How does the question change when those who suffered the pain are no longer living, but when those who are living are still feeling the effects of that pain and suffering?

And there are probably many other types of considerations. You could call answering these questions "making the case for reparations" because you are providing the justification for intergenerational reparations and showing how it could work.

Coates does a bit of this, but mostly he's trying to show the depth and pervasiveness of what was stolen from black people over the centuries, how the thievery took place, and establish the fact that this was a case of thievery and not just bad luck or moral failing. He also shows how black people still suffer from this thievery, e.g., disparate levels of wealth between blacks and whites even when they've achieved the same economic status.

If you believe that someone who's been robbed is entitled to be repaid or made whole, then I think he's made the case for reparations for black people in broad outline. He hasn't answered every question nor nailed down every detail nor done a full accounting, but he has made the case or the beginning of the case. His proposed first step is passing HR 40, which calls for an investigation, a discussion; it doesn't mandate that Uncle Sam get out his checkbook right now.

Here is a partial analysis of

rmrd0000 — Tue, 27 May 2014 19:08:48 +0000

In reply to Black people with

Here is a partial analysis of the situation with the Black Middle class.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-j-leonard/black-middle-class-real...

As a way of agreeing,

PeraclesPlease — Tue, 27 May 2014 17:57:16 +0000

In reply to I tend to use a mixture of

As a way of agreeing, conservatives in Congress have just "fixed" surveillance by making worse.

Opening stuff up for "study" without a concrete agenda is just begging the guys who live by radical agendas to come in and co-opt the debate.

If there's a real plan for reparations that has a chance of doing some good, that could accomplish even 50% of what's proposed, lay it out - after the next general elections.

But I have trouble believing that folks who support reparations can't get concrete after all this time, but are going to put it on the table to "discuss" and leave it to someone else to fill in the details. Sounds like a recipe for disaster - should Democrats be asking the Republicans to hold more hearings on Benghazi?

I'm thinking that Coates is

Michael Maiello — Tue, 27 May 2014 17:52:25 +0000

In reply to By strictly focusing on one

I'm thinking that Coates is not at all interested in a "who had it worse," discussion and we certainly don't have to take it there. There's definitely room for separate discussions about other people who are owed reparations by this country. But they needn't all be pitted against each other.

By strictly focusing on one

Peter Schwartz — Tue, 27 May 2014 17:44:09 +0000

In reply to Broadening the scope would've

By strictly focusing on one of the marginalized groups, there is the implicit subtext that this group suffered the worse.

That's where we go with it...and a lot of people go with it...but I'm not sure that's true.

The groups could be taken up on a case by case basis.

I don't know exactly how reparations went post-WWII, but the fact that Israel argued for reparations and Germany gave them didn't mean that the UK, France, Russia, and Poland had to be considered.

Did it?

Broadening the scope would've

Elusive Trope — Tue, 27 May 2014 16:27:47 +0000

In reply to It's a little like the

Broadening the scope would've destroyed the theme...

The theme here seems to be basically that due to this and that financial hoodwinking, along with the past history of slavery, lynching etx, blacks deserve reparations

There are similarities, to be sure, but there are many, many differences that have nothing to do with whether one set of circumstances was "worse."

But if one broaches the subject of reparations, and the notion of creating a broader discourse in this country about the injustices through the discussion of reparations, I think one has to deal with the fact that blacks were not the only ones who have suffered under the white patriarchy that has dominated the power structure of this country.

By strictly focusing on one of the marginalized groups, there is the implicit subtext that this group suffered the worse. As this thread indicates, as soon as the topic is brought up, especially with a title like "The Case for Reparations," one is going to have to deal with the other marginalized groups and their allies coming to the podium and saying "hold on one moment."

Try this again... Emma

oldenGoldenDecoy — Tue, 27 May 2014 15:55:51 +0000

In reply to I guess those Negroes and

Try this again...

Emma said (and correctly):

Cavaliers came here to make their fortunes and return to England. Many probably would have done so if they had not lost the Crown a few years later. They were the great plantation owners. They created the slave economy of the South. And Bacon was one of them.

So... What part of this is incorrect?

In my reading of the history, within the "militia" that formed there was an alliance formed between Bacon and former indentured servants and both free former slaves and bond-held slaves that in turn upset the ruling class that held the bonds of servitude. The ruling class then hardened the racial caste of slavery. They tightened it up like a vice.

And therefore my //snark//:

I guess those Negroes and dumb white indentured servants should never have aligned themselves with Bacon.

And that takes us back to Coates' small nit:

"Some even rebelled together, allying under Nathaniel Bacon to torch Jamestown in 1676."

It's a very small nit, but it's well worth picking.

Have a fine day. I have a garden to tend.

~OGD~

It's a little like the

Peter Schwartz — Tue, 27 May 2014 15:12:41 +0000

In reply to "What about Native

It's a little like the conundrum Obama has been in.

Mutatis mutandis.

Obama clearly thinks of himself as president of ALL the people.

And yet, he gets criticized by West et al for not doing enough for black people.

However, if he had focused on black people, as here, the cry would have gone out: But what about Native Americans and all the other poor people.

It's a tough needle to thread.

Coates's mission was to explore the ways in which blacks were robbed because they were black.

Broadening the scope would've destroyed the theme, even assuming he had the real estate, expertise, or thought there were enough meaningful similarities to make it a meaningful read. There are similarities, to be sure, but there are many, many differences that have nothing to do with whether one set of circumstances was "worse."

I'm old? I'm OCD? I read a

EmmaZahn — Tue, 27 May 2014 14:58:02 +0000

In reply to Oh my... Emma, how do you

I'm old? I'm OCD? I read a lot?

If you know any writers who like to do Aesops to ponder, there is a really good one at the epicenter of the Tulsa Race Riot story. Several days after reading about them, I am still wondering how Dick Rowland, Sarah Page and especially Sheriff Willard McCullough felt about the consequences of the choices they made.

It is a real-life Trolley Problem.

"As to the one third of

EmmaZahn — Tue, 27 May 2014 14:22:11 +0000

In reply to You make some interesting

"As to the one third of income, we'd still have to admit that that's a huge chunk of one's income, yes? If I say that one third of my income comes from Client X, then that's a lot and no other one sources might come anywhere close"

Not really enough information given to say. Again, it would have been helpful to know the original source of the data.