dagblog - Comments for "The Other Two Sides in Israel and Palestine"

And on the seventh day they

Flavius — Tue, 12 Aug 2014 12:23:30 +0000

And on the seventh day they rest?

Only time will tell where

Peter — Tue, 12 Aug 2014 04:27:08 +0000

In reply to As for Peter's point about

Only time will tell where this Islamic Movement will lead but the ME is ripe for dramatic change and the Caliphate is the only force offering unity and the power to match the Hegemon. Israel may dominate in a traditional set-piece conflict but they did poorly against Hezbollah and these countries are vulnerable to internal insurrections as well as external assault. It's interesting that the IS forces are rated second only to Israel in the ME and they are a young still growing force.

The Islamic State is an internationalist movement that despises borders and petty nationalist/local politics which have been used for a hundred years to keep the Muslim world divided and manipulated by the West. This is probably why their extremely conservative form of Islam is absolutely necessary to purge the corrupting Western influences from the region, only then will they be free to create their own future and make their own mistakes.

As for Peter's point about

Doctor Cleveland — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 21:30:00 +0000

In reply to The Other Two Sides in Israel and Palestine

As for Peter's point about ISIS: it would be foolish to underestimate ISIS, but it's too early to declare them invincible. Many military forces have been declared unbeatable/unstoppable and had the final score card reveal something very different.

I don't think ISIS is actually going to take over the entire Middle East by force of arms. And certainly, if ISIS fielded an army headed for Israel, I think it likely Israel could deal with that. That wouldn't be asymmetrical warfare, but a conventional army marching upon national borders defended by another army. Israel is well equipped to deal with that, it's likely still the pre-eminent regional military power, and it's geared to win on a conventional battlefield against any of its neighbors.

ISIS is doing well against two national armies that are in disarray after years of conflict and turmoil, and has absorbed some of the weapons and personnel of those weakened armies. But there's a reason the Syrian and Iraqi armies, even when they were healthy and cohesive fighting forces, weren't marching against Israel any time soon.

Moreover, ISIS's political power, like all political power, is local: they are filling a power vacuum for a Sunni Arab constituency that straddles either side of the Iraqi-Syrian border. The worst case scenario is they effectively set up a jihadi state carved out of parts of both countries. But it isn't clear that they could take over the rest of Iraq OR Syria, with their large Shiite populations, let alone start a pan-Middle-Eastern Caliphate.

I have absolutely no interest

ocean-kat — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 20:17:15 +0000

In reply to And as you said, coups

I have absolutely no interest in discussing whether the coup was legitimate or illegal, wise or foolish. My sole purpose was to push back against the idea that young arab men and women would support ISIS. It seems unlikely to me that most young Arabs would support a more fundamentalist version of the MB when for example in Egypt they supported a military coup to remove Morsi from office due to his fundamentalist Islamic policies. If fact according to polls the younger Egyptians are more supportive of the coup than older Egyptians and were even more supportive during the coup then now after Sisi's year long crackdown. Even if one believes the coup illegal the fact that a majority of young Egyptians supported the removal of Morsi and the MB is fairly strong evidence that they would be unlikely to support the even more fundamentalist ISIS. Or we could look at Iran where the youth are chafing under that country's islamic rule. The Iranian youth are pushing back on restrictive fundamentalist government and having some success in moving it slightly to the left. It seems unlikely to me that while pushing to liberalize their government the Iranian youth would then support a even more fundamentalist Islamic group like ISIS.

And as you said, coups

Anonymous — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 11:29:10 +0000

In reply to You don't tell us the numbers

And as you said, coups against an elected government aren't legitimate even if 54 percent of people support them. I'll make a partial exception for Ukraine, as Yanukovych did terrible things, and his overthrow wasn't a military coup--it was more of a popular uprising.

You don't tell us the numbers

Peter — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 03:02:02 +0000

In reply to Since the number of Egyptians

You don't tell us the numbers of demonstrators you claim were opposing Morsi but if you are parroting the hugely inflated numbers accepted as fact and repeated by the MSM I do pity your naivete. Do you also believe that 20 million Egyptians signed petitions to oust Morsi as was claimed in the media at that time?

There is evidence that much, but not all, of the demonstrations were instigated by the Falool, Mubarak loyalists and Liberal groups, this was a planned coup not a spontaneous one.

The demonstrators were still

Anonymous — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 23:12:18 +0000

In reply to Since the number of Egyptians

The demonstrators were still a small fraction of Egypt's tens of millions of inhabitants.

Since the number of Egyptians

ocean-kat — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 20:59:31 +0000

In reply to Well, chastened by the

Since the number of Egyptians protesting for the removal of Morsi exceed the number of Americans protesting the Iraq war as a percentage of the population as well as in raw numbers even though Egypt's population is a fraction of the United States I tend to attach more weight to those demonstrations than you seem to.

Aaron posted, "The Muslim

ocean-kat — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 20:43:31 +0000

In reply to Regardless what one wants to

Aaron posted, "The Muslim Brotherhood wasn't removed by the will of the people. It was removed by a military coup" as if military coup by definition excluded the notion of popular support. While that is usually the case imo from the majority of the articles I read during the take over it seemed clear that the coup was supported by the majority of the Egyptian people. While military coup is correct since by definition a military coup can be the will of the people I tend to avoid using it since by connotation it strongly implies a thwarting of the will of the people.

OK is displaying Carnac the

ocean-kat — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 20:16:31 +0000

In reply to This is interesting, OK is

OK is displaying Carnac the Magnificent like abilities

Oh jeezz. Who's Carnac, me or you? You seem to know that arab youth will flock to the ISIS banner and that all those anti-Morsi protestors are regretting their collusion in the coup. The only reason someone descends to insults without any rational content is because they are unable to come up with a rational argument to defend their opinions and are lashing out over losing the debate. I see this as an acknowledgement that your idea that Arab youth will flock to ISIS is nonsense.